So, when is it "adultry with the heart?"

[fraggle]

my third alias:

I was not being critical or judgemental, you think that because its the way you interprate my posts. I actualy think Flick427 has the principal down to know what his goal is but to say that sin opens up more sin is a Catholic teaching not my own. If im criticizing as you asumed then I guess your saying random/sinful thoughts are completely ok like the other people on this thread who agree with you. My goal was never to put a guilt trip on anyone but for you to accuse me of that is a judging me. I never said random thoughts are none acceptable or even considered a mortal sin. I implied that for someone who goes against what the bible says is being like the people who reject Jesus as the messiah and by saying that im sorry if I offended or scared anyone. If i disbelieved what Jesus said, would that not be rejecting his teaching? Yes, I believe we are all in the same boat as sinners. I don’t even know if ill make it to heven.

let’s face it it’s hard not to make assumptions.

• you’re assuming that everyone you disagree is saying that such thoughts are “completely ok,” which they’re not, out of misinterpretation of their posts.

ALL SIN IS HORRIBLE! that’s a fact that no one denies, although it is even Church teaching to describe certain sins as being more horrible than others, even outside of the mortal sin vs. venial sin distinction. i don’t doubt that everyone here knows that venial sin surely can lead to mortal sin if people choose to habituate it, entertain it, be unrepentent, etc.

so the issue here isn’t the reality of the wickedness of sin, as that has already been long established in Scripture and Church doctrine. what’s a more important is the realization of the process (or processes) to which people must go throught to bear it, and hopefully, towards the goal of being rid of the particular sin. focusing on the reality of sin without giving what really is important its proper due is not only kicking a dead horse, but can lead to stubbornness towards receiving the graces and mercy of God. what good is it to know about the evil of sin when you don’t know what to do about it in the here and now as well?

what the people you disagree with are saying that you must not hate yourself, throw yourself into spiritual paralysis and scruplosity over your sins, especially if they’re random thoughts (which are regarded by all catholic spiritual masters as the most difficult of all sins to eliminate, and more often than not, can only be eliminated by the grace of God after other kinds of spiritual progress). what matters is not to accept them, and to try to do what you can to recover from them before they lead you to act sins out. because of the bad advice of a few spiritual directors, St. Teresa despaired herself from continuing the practice of mental prayer, telling her that she was “too sinful” to be practicing it and receiving visions, etc. she learned the hard way, and later warned people of what spiritual director shouldn’t do, out of unreasonable fear over a person’s sins, in her autobiography

also, it’s within the Church’s tradition, through the Desert Fathers to protect oneself of not only pride and vainglory in being righteous, but also the false humility of considering oneself incapable of any good or progress because of their sins, being convinced that they can never follow the commands of Jesus because of their sins.

but then, don’t take my word for it. read the writings of our Doctors of the Church. that’s what they’re there for: to help us.

• and i’m assuming you’re being critical because of your assumption.

i’m sorry.

 

[my_third_alias]

its clear to me some people on this tread are saying its ok to have random/sinful thoughts.I dont believe im wrong to say not its not ok its still a sin. Dont assume my advice to be an attack anyone. Im not trying to belittle anyone but if ive given any wrong advice in this thread at all im sorry for anyone who cary’s out my bad advice. Read my threads to understand me more and you will see im simply trying to prove a point that you now are trying to say yourself in your last post fraggle. I incourage everyone to keep to their faith and cling on to God, dont be blinded to what he wants from us.

 

[fraggle]

well, i didn’t intend to prove a point. this is actually quite a serious topic in spiritual direction, and it seems when people argue what these Scriptural issues really say about sin, they forget to provide some info that the Church has to offer in actually dealing with the sin in question. i’m not saying that you are attacking these people. i’m providing some info to reconsider your criticism. i’m sorry if i failed to prevent myself from appearing to be out to prove you wrong.

after all, flick did ask about ways of dealing with these impure, random thoughts.

 

[my_third_alias]

Im not mad at you fraggle. Im actualy gald you enter into this thread. Now I can give more meaning to the things ive said and add more things to it aswell. Thank you my friend.

 

[fraggle]

no prob.

 

[my_third_alias]

fraggle:

after all, flick did ask about ways of dealing with these impure, random thoughts.

Sorry Flick, I realy hope to help you out rather then trouble your mind. I believe you understand the principles here and thats the main issue. But just dont ignore the facts of knowing right from wrong is the point im trying to get across.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

In my prayer book (I’ll grant, not official like the CCC) under the examination on conscience it asks: “Have I willingly entertained impure thoughts?” Note that it does not ask, “Have I had impure thoughts?”

I think there may be confusion over the idea of concupiscence. From the CCC (my bolding):

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with,** it cannot harm those who do not consent** but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

I would submit that impure thoughts are part of concupiscence. So they are not ok in the sense that everything is hunky-dory. They are painful reminders of the disasterous Fall. But they are not in and of themselves a sin. They are concupiscence: merely something one has like a nose and ten toes and fingers.

Scott

 

[my_third_alias]

Tom:

I think we’re debating what constitutes sin. There really shouldn’t be a dispute. The CCC describes when sin is committed and when it is not. Scripture does not address random thoughts. Please refer to the CCC, Chap 1 Article 8, Sin. It has a wonderful explanation. If I may just give a brief example: 1849 “Sin is and offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law.”

Amen :yup:

 

[my_third_alias]

I know what tom’s point is but is this word for word from the ccc? Lets use this as an example once again to make things more clear “if i had a random blasphamy thought that poped up in my head out of nowhere”. Does that mean I should think it alright? I didnt fall short for that certain moment? to add to that, is that considered a different story? Does that mean its not a sin? im curious about these things too.

 

[my_third_alias]

Yes, i believe what tom’s saying and ofcorse some thoughts are uncontrolable but i too am curious as to if your held accountable for your random thoughts. If its not a sin where does it say in the bible that its not a sin? why would i feel guilty for it if its not a sin?

 

[my_third_alias]

Tom:

or a desire contrary to the eternal law.”

Let me quote a part that Tom says that might be significant. This is a quote to the description that Tom gives on the ccc.This puzzles me the Oxfor dictionary’s meanings of contrary using only two possible significant meanings:1.opposed in nature or tendancy. 2.self-willed. Which one is it? If im wrong about what I said flick sorry.

 

[montanaman]

When I first read this thread I thought I had the answer–“No, you’re not culpable for having random thoughts as long as you ‘change the subject.’” Now, however, I’m starting to think of a murky middle ground.

Let’s just say I’m “under attack” today. My job involves reading a lot of news, some of it dry, boring economic stuff. My mind naturally wanders, especially since I had a great weekend out on my buddy’s boat in WA state. He brought a couple of his female cousins, and they, well, “dressed appropriately” for the occasion. Just bikinis. My mind wanders back to that. I repeatedly “change the subject” in my head, but it keeps coming back. Sometimes, particularly while reading anything about the minimum wage, I zone out. I sometimes go pretty far along in the film in my head. Sometimes it goes so far before I “catch” myself that I realize, had I willed it, I would now be in a state of sin.

And that’s the thing: Did I “unconsciously” will it? Did I rationalize it–“Oh, it’s only for a few seconds…”? And if I’ve now got this stain of sin on my soul, how am I supposed to not feel incredibly resentful? After all, this is the only sin for which your body actually changes. If I’m not mistaken, there’s a chemical change in your brain, (among other things), when such thoughts happen. You don’t go through physiological changes when the temptation to shoplift comes up, after all.

I’m not talking about masterbation. I haven’t slept with anyone. But, I’m feeling like I’ve been out-flanked by a natural desire and because of it, I’m ineligible for Heaven. And THAT’S got me mad…

 

[Catholic_Girl]

montanaman:

But, I’m feeling like I’ve been out-flanked by a natural desire and because of it, I’m ineligible for Heaven. And THAT’S got me mad…

I personaly think that my third alias’s point was not make you think that you’re not going to make it to Heaven just because of these impure thought, but the fact of recognizing that they’re sins and you have sinned is the main point. If you are truly sorry for them, of course the Lord will forgive you because he knows it will only strengthen your faith in him. But some people ask for forgiveness but are not truly sorry( be careful, he knows:tsktsk: ). My third alias has a really good point that people miss and it is trying to keep holiness. Though people tumbles because we’re not perfect, just recognizing your sins is a great deal. But the more you concentrate on what God wants, impure thought doesn’t even come into mind.

**Here, this is comeing directly from the New American Bible word for word its titled “Teaching about adultry” and its in Matthew chapter 5 verse 27-30 as I said in 1 of my earlier posts.“You have heard that it is said, You shall not commit adultry. But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultry with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna”. **

This verse my third alias gave clearly answers the question to flick427. and this comes straight from our Lord. So it should be followed. Jesus makes it pretty clear what he wants us to do to make ourselves reach to Heaven. We have to be self disciplined to what God wants because our soul is at stake.

 

[montanaman]

Thanks, Cat-girl. I’m not sure if you caught my meaning, though. The “temptation-quake” is over, but my question still remains. If you’ve committed adultery in your heart merely by allowing a few lustful thoughts, then I’ve committed adultery–even though those thoughts only found a home in my head for a few seconds…

It’s complex. My heart tells me I’m not hellbound. My brain tells me I’m toast.

 

[my_third_alias]

Scott Waddell:

I would submit that impure thoughts are part of concupiscence. So they are not ok in the sense that everything is hunky-dory. They are painful reminders of the disasterous Fall. But they are not in and of themselves a sin. They are concupiscence: merely something one has like a nose and ten toes and fingers.

Scott

Do you know what concupiscence means? Here this is from the oxford dictionary. Concupiscence=lust. So basicly your telling me lust is not a sin? Thanks for helping to prove me right . Sorry if I made you feel bad in any way but lust is a sin and if its not please prove it to me. Scott please read the bible referance I posted in this thread word for word in Matthew about adultry, just like catholic girl quoted. Amen catholic girl:yup: . Im glad we agree on these things and preach on. If anyone dosent know the meaning to the referance Jesus used “Gehennah” just ask. Im sorry to anyone who has any ill feelings towards me, forgive me. Like I said, dont give up on your faith people. What ever seems to make you weaker should have made you stronger if you looked at things that way.

 

[my_third_alias]

montanaman:

It’s complex. My heart tells me I’m not hellbound. My brain tells me I’m toast.

Your not toast because if you were, you wouldnt care if you were. Its a matter of bouncing back and getting up when you fall. Just keep up the prayer and make the lord a part of your life its only right. Afterall we have a very forgiving God who loves us and knows us down to even knowing how many hairs we have on our head “its in the bible”. Dont ever be discouraged to worship God and I should have posted that a while back.:bowdown:

 

[nordskoven]

It’s “adultery of the heart” when you look twice, or when you think twice. Get some respect for others, and some self-respect. Don’t play God and beat yourself up just for the fun of being judgmental. Do get some discipline. Notice you are doing it, that’s job one–honesty.

Sin is rarely what it seems. People get mad about something and go shoplifting. It’s not greed, it’s anger. Sexual impurity probably has an anger or pride root, too. You want to be controlling mentally. Go do the brain de-scumming “Observation Meditation” at the Foundation of Human Understanding. It roots out the root cause of sin. fhu.com/

 

[my_third_alias]

nordskoven:

It’s “adultery of the heart” when you look twice, or when you think twice. Get some respect for others, and some self-respect. Don’t play God and beat yourself up just for the fun of being judgmental. Do get some discipline. Notice you are doing it, that’s job one–honesty.

Sin is rarely what it seems. People get mad about something and go shoplifting. It’s not greed, it’s anger. Sexual impurity probably has an anger or pride root, too. You want to be controlling mentally. Go do the brain de-scumming “Observation Meditation” at the Foundation of Human Understanding. It roots out the root cause of sin. fhu.com/

Since When have I disrespected others for amusement? Why are you angry at me? Because of my referances? I always appologize if I hurt anyones feelings. When did I start playing God, when I let the bible speak for itself? If I want to prove a point im called controlling? Why not look at how many people including you that disbelieve what scripture say or disbelieve my interpretation at least. When have I been dishonest or even had an aim to put someone down? Where does it say in scripture you have to look twice, look at the referance again. Sorry if I have upset you in any way but I never even talked to you befor and now im told from you i need to descum my brain? When you agreed to join the forums you should take the time to read the agreement, it says somthing about respecting others thoughts and opinions.

 

[fraggle]

before this thread turns into a flame fest, maybe we all should take a deep, refreshing breath and consider reading what our Doctors of the Church have to say to help us all out some time in the near future?

all we have demonstrated here is how frustrated we are, running in around this topic in circles like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off in a maze of anxiety.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

my third alias:

Do you know what concupiscence means? Here this is from the oxford dictionary. Concupiscence=lust. So basicly your telling me lust is not a sin? Thanks for helping to prove me right . Sorry if I made you feel bad in any way but lust is a sin and if its not please prove it to me. Scott please read the bible referance I posted in this thread word for word in Matthew about adultry, just like catholic girl quoted. Amen catholic girl:yup: . Im glad we agree on these things and preach on. If anyone dosent know the meaning to the referance Jesus used “Gehennah” just ask. Im sorry to anyone who has any ill feelings towards me, forgive me. Like I said, dont give up on your faith people. What ever seems to make you weaker should have made you stronger if you looked at things that way.

Uhhh…did you bother to look at my CCC quote on concupiscence? I would prefer it if you directed your critique to that rather than a short-handed Oxford definition. Also, what on earth did I say that implied that I felt bad about anything you said? I am merely responding to your argument that is basically impure thought automatically equals fully culpable lust. I provided an official Church document quote (the CCC) and a practical application of its principle (the examination of conscience) that reasonably suggests otherwise. So far you have provided a bible quote (fine) with a triumphal declaration that yours is the authoritative interpretation and application. (Not fine).

Scott