So... who are the true bishops?

[Maxime_Indigent]

I think most of us can agree that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will one day unite. After all, it’s what we’ve been striving for.

But once that happens, what then? I mean my question is, who would be the real bishops of the East? For example, Jerusalem has a Latin Patriarch and an Orthodox Patriarch – which of them would be the true bishop?

 

[DnJohn]

I think that would be something the bishops would have to figure out when that joyous time does occur.

I think that what could happen is the Greek patriarch could be the main bishop and the Latin one could be the auxiliary. Or perhaps it would be on a rotation basis like the Greek would be the bishop and when he retires/ dies the next bishop would be the Latin one.

Fr Dn John

 

[achmafooma]

As Fr Dn John said, this is something that would need to be figured out when it happens.

My GUESS is that the eastern bishops will be given priority in most places, especially those where the Orthodox have a larger or more historically-important presence than the western church.

There will be a lot of ‘politics’ involved in reunification, at least at the beginning, and I think the western/Latin church will have to be very careful about appearances. We don’t want it to look like we are assuming control of the Orthodox churches, which is what it will look like if we start putting the Catholic bishops over all the Orthodox bishops. It needs to be a ‘merger of equals,’ and it needs to be handled like one. I would hope that, when this occurs, both ‘sides’ will be conciliatory and deferential to one another as much as possible.

My hunch is that the Eastern Catholic Churches will be fully merged with their ‘equivalent’ Orthodox Churches, with the Orthodox bishops being given primacy and the Eastern Catholic bishops made auxiliaries. Then, over time, there will be no differentiation in those bodies between formerly EC and formerly EO.

It gets more complicated in places that have multiple rites coexisting. I would guess that in places where there is a big Latin presence AND a big EO presence, both bishops will remain as primates for members of their respective rites, but increasing their cooperation with one another.

 

[MorEphrem]

Not to sound too blunt, but a search will yield multiple of these threads with some interesting discussion already having been made pertaining to what would happen to different hierarchies.

Suffice it to say, I hope false contender hierarchies like the Latin patriarchate in Jerusalem and the Greek patriarchate in Antioch are abolished upon unification. They’re about as analogous to the creation of a Syriac patriarchate in Rome or an Armenian patriarchate in Constantinople.

 

[twf]

Not to sound too blunt, but a search will yield multiple of these threads with some interesting discussion already having been made pertaining to what would happen to different hierarchies.

Suffice it to say, I hope false contender hierarchies like the Latin patriarchate in Jerusalem and the Greek patriarchate in Antioch are abolished upon unification. They’re about as analogous to the creation of a Syriac patriarchate in Rome or an Armenian patriarchate in Constantinople.

There IS an Armenian Patriarch in Constantinople.

 

[MorEphrem]

There IS an Armenian Patriarch in Constantinople.

Well you learn something every day - I thought that there would be an Armenian archbishop of Constantinople with significant influence since modern-day Turkey is intertwined with the history of Armenians, especially prior to the Armenian genocide. Thanks for the information, twf.

The point still stands, I find that outrageous.

 

[malphono]

Well you learn something every day - I thought that there would be an Armenian archbishop of Constantinople with significant influence since modern-day Turkey is intertwined with the history of Armenians, especially prior to the Armenian genocide. Thanks for the information, twf.

The point still stands, I find that outrageous.

Apparently the Armenians consider the title “Patriarch” to be inferior to that of “Catholicos.” It seems that the concept of “Patriarchate” among the Armenians is something closer to that of the Latins (e.g, Venice and Lisbon). Notice that both Etchmadzin and Cilicia use “Catholicos” (albeit that Etchmadzn is considered to be of senior rank). IIRC, the Armenians in union with Rome use “Catholicos-Patriarch” (as do the Chaldeans).

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

Not to sound too blunt, but a search will yield multiple of these threads with some interesting discussion already having been made pertaining to what would happen to different hierarchies.

Suffice it to say, I hope false contender hierarchies like the Latin patriarchate in Jerusalem and the Greek patriarchate in Antioch are abolished upon unification. They’re about as analogous to the creation of a Syriac patriarchate in Rome or an Armenian patriarchate in Constantinople.

I mean there was a Syriac Patriarch in Rome at one stage. St Peter.

 

[Peter_J]

I think most of us can agree that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will one day unite. After all, it’s what we’ve been striving for.

I don’t deny that we (Catholics in general, I mean, not just us on this forum) engage in the aforementioned striving. However, let me ask you this: you believe that protestants are even worse than the Orthodox, right?

 

[Aramis]

All are the true bishops.

Some Churches will realign dioceses to retain sees. Others will have dual bishops (coadjutors) for a period. Others will have the combined synod pick and retire the rest.

And some, due to divergence, will remain separated, but in communion.

It’s going to be case by case, synod by synod, church by church.

I doubt we’re going to see recentralization of the East - with a possible exception of some of the smaller Ruthenian Recension ECC’s, who might be combined into a metropolia, or even be affixed to the UGCC as semi-autonomous eparchies - if they wish that and ask Rome for that.

 

[Wandile]

I think most of us can agree that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will one day unite. After all, it’s what we’ve been striving for.

But once that happens, what then? I mean my question is, who would be the real bishops of the East? For example, Jerusalem has a Latin Patriarch and an Orthodox Patriarch – which of them would be the true bishop?

Well here is what I think :

Rome : The Bishop of Rome aka the Pope obviously
Constantinople The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople
Alexandria : The Coptic Pope of Alexandria and all Africa
Antioch : The Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch of Antioch
Jerusalem : The Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem

I must admit that Antioch is the most complicated as it has the maronite, Greek and Syrian churches all claiming. However, if the apostolic rule of one bishop for one city is maintained the I’ll still go with the Melkite Patriarch

 

[Peter_J]

Well here is what I think :

Rome : The Bishop of Rome aka the Pope obviously
Constantinople The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople
Alexandria : The Coptic Pope of Alexandria and all Africa
Antioch : The Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch of Antioch
Jerusalem : The Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem

I must admit that Antioch is the most complicated as it has the maronite, Greek and Syrian churches all claiming. However, if the apostolic rule of one bishop for one city is maintained the I’ll still go with the Melkite Patriarch

(emphasis added)

Much obliged. :tiphat:

Truth is, though, that our (Melkite) leaders have stated that, if the Antiochian Orthodox Church comes into communion with Rome*, the Melkite patriarch with step down /defer to the AOC patriarch.

• Not that I’m holding my breath for that to happen; but the above statement is still important as a matter of principle.

 

[dzheremi]

Well you learn something every day - I thought that there would be an Armenian archbishop of Constantinople with significant influence since modern-day Turkey is intertwined with the history of Armenians, especially prior to the Armenian genocide. Thanks for the information, twf.

The point still stands, I find that outrageous.

If you’re going to be outraged at anything, be outraged at the Turks, since it was the Ottoman empire that made this a thing in the first place (see here; they made the metropolitan of Bursa into the Patriarch of all Armenians under their millet system – the Armenians themselves, like every other minority in the Ottoman empire, did not create the millet system that they were organized into by their Muslim overlords).

It still exists because the Turks haven’t actually given up on that mindset (see also: the restrictions on the election of the EP, etc.).

 

[Brendan_64]

I think most of us can agree that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will one day unite. After all, it’s what we’ve been striving for.

One day all Christian Churches will unite. That is what we are striving for.

 

[Peter_J]

One day all Christian Churches will unite. That is what we are striving for.

I think I prefer your way of putting it. I don’t see any reason to single out the Orthodox and focus on how to fix (?) them.

 

[MorEphrem]

If you’re going to be outraged at anything, be outraged at the Turks, since it was the Ottoman empire that made this a thing in the first place (see here; they made the metropolitan of Bursa into the Patriarch of all Armenians under their millet system – the Armenians themselves, like every other minority in the Ottoman empire, did not create the millet system that they were organized into by their Muslim overlords).

It still exists because the Turks haven’t actually given up on that mindset (see also: the restrictions on the election of the EP, etc.).

As a Syrian and someone who has studied history for their undegrad I understand well the lasting effects of the millet system (one of the many lasting visual effects of the millet system is the episcopal headwear of the Orient). For the reason malphono stated I don’t particularly find the Armenian distinction of “patriarch” to be all that bad (to be honest, my last post was an attempt at impartiality so I’m not biased against the Greeks). I will not harp on the same point so I will refrain from decrying the Greek patriarch of Antioch (an essential differnence between the Armenian patriarchate of Constantinople and the Greek patriarchate of Antioch is that the former is not autocephalous).

 

[Brendan_64]

I think I prefer your way of putting it. I don’t see any reason to single out the Orthodox and focus on how to fix (?) them.

Rather than thinking about how to fix the other Churches, perhaps we have some fixing of our own to do?

 

[Peter_J]

Rather than thinking about how to fix the other Churches, perhaps we have some fixing of our own to do?

Fixing of our own to do? What a shocking thought!

 

[Josephene]

Thank you for sharing the info on the ’ Millet system ’ , which , as per from limited reading on same , also mentions how the religious authority in such a system , owed ultimate loyalty to the ruling Islamic authority !

On this Feast of The Mother of God , that info helped to understand bit more, the mystery of the two roses , on the feet of Bl.Mother, in her apparition as The Immaculate Conception .

Thus, the roses , to symbolise power over the dragon - she is the one to crush the head of the serpent and the two roses , thus , may be to symbolise that God given power, to tranform the ? existing left over ties and thorns , such as through the above mentioned Millet system and the possible symbolic representation by the two snakes on the staff of the heirarchy !

The Church , thus , in the Holy Spirit inspired wisdom and guidance , starts the newyear , proclaiming the role given to her , by an all Merciful God , as Mother of God , so that our trust in her role, thus would be used , to let her take authority over all her children , thus to undo what ought to be , in order to bring the grace and power of The Incarnation , to esp. those who parttake of the Holy Mysteries …without letting the dragon swallow up the graces meant to bring forth loyalty where it is meant to be and trusting peace , from same , all around !

 

[Contarini]

I think I prefer your way of putting it. I don’t see any reason to single out the Orthodox and focus on how to fix (?) them.

I don’t think it’s that they need more fixing (quite the reverse), but rather that the Catholic Church needs them particularly badly and that the obstacles are (at least from the Catholic side) relatively small.

There’s no way, realistically, that all Christians are going to be united before Jesus comes. In a best-case scenario there will be some fundamentalists refusing to come on board.

Edwin