So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

[PRmerger]

So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

If God can do that for 1 person, why not the rest?

The world’s gonna be a lot better place without the human flaws of insecurity, greed, lust, etc. Right?

So we could gain for us so great a Redeemer.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

If God can do that for 1 person, why not the rest?

The world’s gonna be a lot better place without the human flaws of insecurity, greed, lust, etc. Right?

Adam and Eve were created without sin.

Didn’t stop them from sinning, did it?

Mary’s being born immaculate was God’s salvation of her through Christ at the moment of her conception. The only difference between her and us (aside from the fact that we aren’t giving birth to Almighty God) is that Christ’s salvation was received by her at conception, and for us, we wait until baptism. We have just as much freedom of salvation and the ability to reject sin, after baptism, as Mary did. Why blame God? God didn’t MAKE Mary incapable of sin --she choose to cooperate with Him.

So could we.

 

[PRmerger]

Adam and Eve were created without sin.

Didn’t stop them from sinning, did it?

That’s a great point!

 

[CatholicRaven]

.

i have asked this many times…are you saying mama mary who had no original sin had no choice and no free will? not able to choose love? was she like a robot?

Of course Mary had free will–and so did Adam and Eve. I didn’t say taking away Original Sin would leave us no free will. I said taking away all temptation would–that is, taking away all possible bad choices, and leaving* only the option to do good. Being conceived without sin would not necessarily prevent us from sinning. Temptation came before Original Sin. That was my point; if I’m understanding you correctly, you seem to be confusing the two, equating being born without Original Sin as being unable to sin–you seem to be saying that without Original Sin, we would have* no temptations,** and we would only be capable of choosing the good.

Adam and Eve, inexperienced or not, knew what they were doing when they made the choice to sin. We cannot assume that we are more intelligent than they were, or that we are morally superior to them. We also cannot make the assumption that we would have made a different choice, “if it had been me.”

 

[CatholicRaven]

Adam and Eve were created without sin.

Didn’t stop them from sinning, did it?

Mary’s being born immaculate was God’s salvation of her through Christ at the moment of her conception. The only difference between her and us (aside from the fact that we aren’t giving birth to Almighty God) is that Christ’s salvation was received by her at conception, and for us, we wait until baptism. We have just as much freedom of salvation and the ability to reject sin, after baptism, as Mary did. Why blame God? God didn’t MAKE Mary incapable of sin --she choose to cooperate with Him.

So could we.

This is what I was trying to express. You said this much better than I did. Thank you.

 

[sophion]

Of course Mary had free will–and so did Adam and Eve. I didn’t say taking away Original Sin would leave us no free will. I said taking away all temptation would–that is, taking away all possible bad choices, and leaving* only *the option to do good. Being conceived without sin would not necessarily prevent us from sinning. Temptation came before Original Sin. That was my point;

who said about taking away temptation? not me.

if I’m understanding you correctly, you seem to be confusing the two, equating being born without Original Sin as being unable to sin–you seem to be saying that without Original Sin, we would have** no temptations,** and we would only be capable of choosing the good.

your assumption is incorrect. i merely said the world would be a lot better place if people are not flawed. agree?

 

[davidv]

who said about taking away temptation? not me.

your assumption is incorrect. i merely said the world would be a lot better place if people are not flawed. agree?

How long would it stay better?

Adam and Eve were created without flaws, yet they brought flaws into humanity.

 

[sophion]

How long would it stay better?

Adam and Eve were created without flaws, yet they brought flaws into humanity.

adam and eve also did not have knowledge of good and evil. they practically did not know what they were doing.

look its a setup. jews believe god intended for them to eat the fruit. thats why its been placed in the middle of their play pen.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

If God can do that for 1 person, why not the rest?

The world’s gonna be a lot better place without the human flaws of insecurity, greed, lust, etc. Right?

If you believe Jesus washed away your sins then you are born immaculate.

When Jesus forgives you of your sins it is as if they never happened.

In the Spirit you are born into a new body.

 

[davidv]

adam and eve also did not have knowledge of good and evil. they practically did not know what they were doing.

How do you know this? I think you are guessing and question begging.

look its a setup. jews believe god intended for them to eat the fruit. thats why its been placed in the middle of their play pen.

I think are misrepresenting Jewish teaching. This certainly is not Catholic teaching. Why do think of Adam and Eve as infants?

 

[sophion]

How do you know this? I think you are guessing and question begging.

I think are misrepresenting Jewish teaching. This certainly is not Catholic teaching. Why do think of Adam and Eve as infants?

And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons

they matured mentally AFTER eating the fruit…according to the story.

 

[PRmerger]

And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons

they matured mentally AFTER eating the fruit…according to the story.

Their eyes were open to SHAME, sophion. Not to the morality of good and evil.

 

[classica87]

And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons

they matured mentally AFTER eating the fruit…according to the story.

Uh, no. They didn’t “mature mentally” as you would say. Before the Fall, Man was perfect and had no shame in being naked because of this. We we’re unmarked by original sin, so our nakedness was normal and good because we were holy in God’s sight. When Man was tainted after the Fall, Adam and Eve (and all humanity) became imperfect beings. They were no longer holy in God’s sight, but a perversion of God’s beautiful image. They were sinful and defiled, and they knew it. They tried to hide it by sewing coverings for themselves.

Adam and Eve were not mental “babies.” They were full-blown adults conscious of their actions and their surroundings. They were also fully aware of God’s existence and His command. It’s exactly because of this awareness that they sewed fig leaves together and covered themselves.

It’s also worth it to note that after eating the fruit, Adam and Eve knew what evil was, so they knew what lust was, etc. Before the Fall, lust didn’t exist in the world. Yes, Adam and Eve were naked and married, but it was a pure, holy relationship; they didn’t lust after one another’s bodies and entertain carnal desires like we fallen humans do. It would make sense, wouldn’t it then, that after the Fall they would want to cover themselves, because they now understood lust and the sins of the flesh, and that nakedness would lead another to sin.

Just my two cents. Someone with more intelligence help me out here.

 

[sophion]

Their eyes were open to SHAME, sophion. Not to the morality of good and evil.

you think thats all the fruit gave them?

 

[sophion]

Adam and Eve were not mental “babies.” They were full-blown adults conscious of their actions and their surroundings. They were also fully aware of God’s existence and His command. It’s exactly because of this awareness that they sewed fig leaves together and covered themselves.

according to the story they were born with adult bodies, right? so question is, how mature were their minds? i think this answers it:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

Knowledge was the offer. just the ability to know whats good and whats bad.

 

[PRmerger]

you think thats all the fruit gave them?

I don’t understand the question.

 

[sophion]

I don’t understand the question.

you think the ability to feel shame is all they acquired from eating the fruit? they did not get a knowledge of good & evil as they expected?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I thought this belief is held by many Easterners, just not infallibly declared (I’m thinking of Easterners as Orthodox). Am I wrong about this?

We (Orthodox and Eastern Catholics) do not believe there was anything special about the conception of the Theotokos. Though we profess that she is immaculate in the sense that she is completely sinless, she did not need to be excused from anything on her conception. The Latin concept of Original Sin does not exist in Eastern patristic teaching.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thank you! finally someone who understands.

From the Eastern standpoint, redemption is found in God partaking in the nature of man. If Mary is concieved in any other way different from the rest of mankind, how exactly did Christ share our nature?

 

[pig]

From the Eastern standpoint, redemption is found in God partaking in the nature of man. If Mary is concieved in any other way different from the rest of mankind, how exactly did Christ share our nature?

In all things but sin?