So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

[PRmerger]

you think the ability to feel shame is all they acquired from eating the fruit? they did not get a knowledge of good & evil as they expected?

No, shame was not “all” they acquired.

But it wasn’t a literal knowledge of good and evil that they wanted, sophion. What they desired was the ability to declare what is good and what is evil.

They never received that.

For, of course, that is not the right of the creature to declare. That is the purview of the Creator alone.

 

[ConstantineTG]

In all things but sin?

The Fall changed the nature of man, thus Christ by inserting His divinity into this fallen human nature perfected humanity. And His death conquered all the effects of the Fall, the greatest of all is death itself. If Christ took on the pre-Fall humanity, then there was nothing to be saved, and it is a nature other than the one we have.

The humanity that Christ took on has the ability to sin (that is why the devil tempted him). But he never sinned himself, being his human will in perfect submission to his divine will.

 

[classica87]

No, shame was not “all” they acquired.

But it wasn’t a literal knowledge of good and evil that they wanted, sophion. What they desired was the ability to declare what is good and what is evil.

They never received that.

For, of course, that is not the right of the creature to declare. That is the purview of the Creator alone.

PR says this quite well. They didn’t just want knowledge of good and evil. The devil tempts Eve, and tells her she and Adam will be “like God.” That is where the sin lies–Adam and Eve believed they could become like God, that they could be equal with, or perhaps even greater than, him. God, however, is the Most High; no one can be like God, because he is the Great “I Am” who has existed from the beginning, and all things are made by him and subject to him. Complete mastery of all things belongs to God, and God alone.

 

[pig]

From the Eastern standpoint, redemption is found in God partaking in the nature of man. If Mary is concieved in any other way different from the rest of mankind, how exactly did Christ share our nature?

She experienced baptism before we did. We are mankind with baptism. Not mankind before the Fall.
"The defined dogma of the Immaculate Conception regards original sin only, saying that Mary was preserved from any stain (in Latin, macula or labes, the second of these two synonymous words being the one used in the formal definition). The proclaimed Roman Catholic dogma states “that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.” Therefore, being always free from original sin, the doctrine teaches that from her conception Mary received the sanctifying grace that would normally come with baptism after birth.
The definition makes no declaration about the Church’s belief that the Blessed Virgin was sinless, in the sense of actual or personal sin. However, the Church also holds that Mary was also sinless personally, that she was “free from all sin, original or personal”. The Council of Trent decreed: “If anyone shall say that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he who falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the contrary, that throughout his whole life he can avoid all sins even venial sins, except by a special privilege of God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin: let him be anathema.”

 

[jochoa]

So why cant we all be born Immaculate?

If God can do that for 1 person, why not the rest?

The world’s gonna be a lot better place without the human flaws of insecurity, greed, lust, etc. Right?

Please consider the following concepts:
Because she is the only one of us to freely choose to be perfectly obedient to God through all time.

Also, have you considered what is the purpose for God creating?

Please recognize, if the purpose you ascribe to God is limited, you will be unable to find a solution which is in alignment with the fullness of truth.

 

[ActuarialNinja]

you think the ability to feel shame is all they acquired from eating the fruit? they did not get a knowledge of good & evil as they expected?

I believe that eating the fruit, or whatever metaphor the fruit stands for, resulted in knowledge of both good and evil. Prior to the fall, mankind only knew good, which originates from God. The devil tempted the originators of our species to try and know that which is not from God, and therefore to know evil. I think this kind of knowledge of evil is ruinous (think of knowing what it’s like to break an arm or suffer from chronic pain, I’d rather not!). A proper understanding of what evil is helps to draw out the illustration (evil is not a “thing”, but a privation; a parasite that distorts and destroys something good. There would be no evil if there were no good for it to destroy).

I wish I had a definitive answer to the original question of why we were not born immaculate like the Virgin Mary. To be honest I struggle with similar questions. The best that I can come up with is that God arranges people’s free will to have consequences, and if God overrode those consequences, there would be no free will at all.

To be perfectly honest, I struggle with similar questions quite often, and I don’t have a knock-down response. I do believe that despite all of our bad choices and experiences, we are to inherit something so unimaginably great that our present plight is nothing by comparison. All of our sufferings and declined inclinations to evil will in the end make us into types of creatures that will see more of God than if we remained innocent. It is a promissory note, not an answer; but it’s the best I can do, and I think it is true.

 

[sophion]

Please consider the following concepts:
Because she is the only one of us to freely choose to be perfectly obedient to God through all time.

where does it say that?

Also, have you considered what is the purpose for God creating?

according to christian beliefs, its to serve and love god.

 

[jochoa]

where does it say that?

In the Logos, AKA Logic. Please consider the following concepts:

1. Recognize that God is creating an unlimited number of free-willed people. In each person’s life time, s/he will make many choices. Given the odds of an unlimited number of free-willed people, there will be one who freely chooses to be most perfectly obedient to God. The Immaculate Conception is the most perfectly obedient to God, and there are none created, who freely choose to be as perfect as Mary, the most holy virgin mother.
2. Being most perfectly obedient means never disobeying. Recognize the first sin we all commit, except the one who is most perfectly obedient, is disobedience, hence the name Original Sin.

according to christian beliefs, its to serve and love god.

Please consider the following:
Although this line of Wisdom is most definitely true, if your understanding of it does not help you grow closer to knowing God and His Holy Church, then your understanding is incomplete. Try to recognize that the more you know and understand God and His Church, the greater peace and joy you will experience.

So in your analysis, does the purpose of creating being “to serve and love God” justify sufficiently to you as to why there can only be one immaculate conception?

Thank you very much, my friend, for such excellent questions! I have thoroughly enjoyed pondering your questions, and they have especially helped me grow in faith and understanding! I look forward to further discussion!

 

[sophion]

In the Logos, AKA Logic. Please consider the following concepts:

1. Recognize that God is creating an unlimited number of free-willed people. In each person’s life time, s/he will make many choices. Given the odds of an unlimited number of free-willed people, there will be one who freely chooses to be most perfectly obedient to God. The Immaculate Conception is the most perfectly obedient to God, and there are none created, who freely choose to be as perfect as Mary, the most holy virgin mother.
2. Being most perfectly obedient means never disobeying. Recognize the first sin we all commit, except the one who is most perfectly obedient, is disobedience, hence the name Original Sin.

you did not answer the question

 

[zro_x]

Some things that I have come to understand and I am not aware that it is against Church teaching.

Mary is God’s perfect creation. No creation of God conforms to God’s will more than Mary. It is because of God’s love for Mary that God created everything. It is because of God’s love for Mary that He chose to combine His nature with hers. It is because of God’s love for Mary that we even exist. What has happened, from the first moment of creation to the end of time, God has allowed because of His love for Mary. It is because of His love for Mary that He has set her above everything, but Himself. Some angels have fallen because they refused to love and honor Mary. I would not want to be numbered among them.

whoa! this seems dangerously close to marian deification.

 

[zro_x]

No, we are saying that she was born with sanctifying grace, not without it.

Ordinary people are born without sanctifying grace. This is conferred for the first time with the Sacrament of Baptism.

The Blessed Virgin was chosen among all women to be the mother of Christ, and for that reason at her conception she received sanctifying grace. Only another person in had received the same grace: Eve. Which is one of many reasons why Our Lady is called “the new Eve”.

Us, unfortunately, are born without that special gift (mind you, it’s a gift, not a right) of sanctifying grace. Before the redemption achieved by Christ, we’d never be able to receive that grace by ourselves. After His coming, we are all entitled to it by Baptism: not through our merits or by any power of ours, but by the merits and the power of Christ, whom we call our Savior and our High Priest, as well as the “new Adam”.

in that case, Mary would be holy enough to carry Jesus within her whether or not she was immaculately concieved. Baptism as an infant would make her just as holy, and there would be no need to be born without it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

She experienced baptism before we did. We are mankind with baptism. Not mankind before the Fall.
"The defined dogma of the Immaculate Conception regards original sin only, saying that Mary was preserved from any stain (in Latin, macula or labes, the second of these two synonymous words being the one used in the formal definition). The proclaimed Roman Catholic dogma states “that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.” Therefore, being always free from original sin, the doctrine teaches that from her conception Mary received the sanctifying grace that would normally come with baptism after birth.
The definition makes no declaration about the Church’s belief that the Blessed Virgin was sinless, in the sense of actual or personal sin. However, the Church also holds that Mary was also sinless personally, that she was “free from all sin, original or personal”. The Council of Trent decreed: “If anyone shall say that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he who falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the contrary, that throughout his whole life he can avoid all sins even venial sins, except by a special privilege of God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin: let him be anathema.”

That is the problem. The stain is what we inherited from Adam’s sin which all of mankind receives to this very day. If Mary was exempted from such stain, then she does not share the humanity of the rest of us. Thus Christ could not have shared in our human nature because Mary’s human nature is different from ours.

 

[jochoa]

you did not answer the question

Please consider two points:

1. CCC#493 “The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.”
2. Where do you perceive flawed conclusions in my understandings and application of logic?

 

[ConstantineTG]

in that case, Mary would be holy enough to carry Jesus within her whether or not she was immaculately concieved. Baptism as an infant would make her just as holy, and there would be no need to be born without it.

This is viewed the opposite way. Mary didn’t become holy so she would be able to bear God. God is all holy and cannot be stained by sin. Jesus could have been conceived in the womb of the most sinful woman of all time and it wouldn’t change his own holiness, nor detract from it. Rather, Mary is filled with grace because she is going to bear the Son of God. As light defeats darkness and darkness can never overcome light, Mary being grace-filled is an effect of bearing God, not a cause to bear God.

 

[pig]

That is the problem. The stain is what we inherited from Adam’s sin which all of mankind receives to this very day. If Mary was exempted from such stain, then she does not share the humanity of the rest of us. Thus Christ could not have shared in our human nature because Mary’s human nature is different from ours.

What do you not understand? Mary was baptized as you and I were. She is not pre-fall because she was baptized, any more than you or I are. Christ was born of a woman who was baptized and he took on her nature, your nature, my nature.

 

[sophion]

Please consider two points:

1. CCC#493 “The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.”
2. Where do you perceive flawed conclusions in my understandings and application of logic?

oh i get it now. so you mean only the fathers said that. ok.

that is merely a statement of belief. it has nothing to do with logic.

 

[zro_x]

This is viewed the opposite way. Mary didn’t become holy so she would be able to bear God. God is all holy and cannot be stained by sin. Jesus could have been conceived in the womb of the most sinful woman of all time and it wouldn’t change his own holiness, nor detract from it. Rather, Mary is filled with grace because she is going to bear the Son of God. As light defeats darkness and darkness can never overcome light, Mary being grace-filled is an effect of bearing God, not a cause to bear God.

If this were true, why didn’t Mary retain original sin until after she started carrying Jesus?

 

[jochoa]

oh i get it now. so you mean only the fathers said that. ok.

Please consider the following point and concept:

1. I only shared the Father’s writings because it is more graceful and to the point than my writings.
2. Here is the Biblical Scripture which resolves the question: Where does it say that, “Mary is the one, who freely chooses to be perfectly obedient to God through all time.”?
   Luke 1:26-28, 30 DRB The writings in italics are my interpretations.
   26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, ← An angel of God went to Mary.
   27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. ← Since being a virgin is the purest one can enter into marriage, and being pure is God’s Will. She is definitely obedient to God.
   28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. ← A. An angel of God greets her with honor, therefore, she is holy/‘consecrated to God’. B. Grace means simple elegance per Google, and from the perspective of a free-willed human, the most simply elegant act is being fully obedient to God with pure faith. Most of us over-complicate doing and understanding God and His Will because we seek 100% proof of God, myself included. C. Out of all women, she is special.
   38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. ← She demonstrates her free choice to be obedient.

In conclusion,
A. Luke 1 of the Holy Bible indicates that of all humans, Mary is unique, holy, pure, dedicated to God, obedient to God, and full of simple elegance, in other words, Most Perfectly Obedient.
B. The Father’s writings indicate that Mary is most perfectly obedient.
C. The Logic, given the concept of God, the Creator of Everything, indicates that of all the free-willed people created in the world, there will be one who is the most perfectly obedient to God, AKA Mary.

that is merely a statement of belief. it has nothing to do with logic.

Please share why you perceive my analysis and application of logic should not lead me to knowing that we can’t all be born Immaculate, given none of us will freely choose to be as obedient to God as the most perfectly obedient one of us chose to be.

Thank you very much for your time, consideration, and excellent food for thought! You have tremendously helped me grow in faith, wisdom, knowledge, and perspective!