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tstrong728
Guest
Amen.
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EasterJoy
Guest
You make an important clarification. I am not saying there are two Churches, the “organized Church” and the “real Church.” I am saying that to join the Church is not to join a *mere *organization. It is to be knit into a single Body of Christ by grace which has its foundation in the truth. Converts should not think they are consenting to join an organization, one that they might just as well pass by in favor of people they like better or rituals that they like better or a way of talking that they like better. To join the Church is to consent to be owned by the truth. That is what baptism means.
When the OP wrote “After this little mini Fox and Friends show, I’m going to have to strongly consider my future. Thank you fellows for opening my eyes”, he strongly implies that whether or not he likes other people in the Church is going to determine whether or not he’s going to believe that what the Church says is true. If he doesn’t like the way he’s talked to, he implies, he’s going elsewhere. He implies that he’s the consumer, and the religions he considers are a product that he can accept or reject based on whether he feels inclined to “buy”.
That is a mistake of monumental proportions, the error of relativism, the error that says, “no one owns marriage”, as if marriage is some artificial construct that can be defined as anyone pleases without reference to the truth of how humankind was made by the Creator. There is such a thing as objective truth, such a thing as a right and wrong which the just have a duty to defend. That is what I mean to say: that is, that this is what the Church teaches, that there is a real objective truth that can be known, and that those who know it have a duty to defend it and proclaim it, even at the cost of not being liked, even at the cost of their lives.
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His_helpmeet
Guest
I read an interesting statement awhile back. It said something to the effect that God’s love is Him giving us what we don’t deserve, and Him showing us mercy is not giving us what we do deserve.
Every human being sins. What we “deserve”, in a strict sense, is punishment. However, Jesus died so that we did not have to experience punishment. He gave Himself solely for the good of humanity.
OP, if you’re still on here, please let me explain a couple of things:
In Christ,
His_Helpmeet
Every human being sins. What we “deserve”, in a strict sense, is punishment. However, Jesus died so that we did not have to experience punishment. He gave Himself solely for the good of humanity.
OP, if you’re still on here, please let me explain a couple of things:
- Murder is murder. You can’t murder someone just because you’re afraid of what “might” happen. Even if the child is wanted, conceived and born in the context of a marriage, that’s no guarantee that he/she might suffer a terrible accident, at birth even, and be severely disabled. Furthermore, the evidence suggests that there ARE consequences from abortion. Women who have had abortions are more likely to abuse their children. They are more likely to develop breast cancer, because pregnancy increases the portions of breast tissue that are susceptible to cancer - and not having a full-term pregnancy results in exposure of those areas to MORE estrogen than the body would have been exposed to if the pregnancy had been carried to term. Also, abortion increases the risk of subsequent preterm birth, which again, because the pregnancy is not carried to term, increases the risk of breast cancer still further.
- Gay marriage. God’s laws define that marriage is to be between 1 man and 1 woman to the exclusion of all others. The complementarity of the sexes is derived from natural law. Woman was created to be the crown of creation, the helpmeet of man. (I am a married woman; hence why my SN is “His_helpmeet”.) Also, marriage is, by natural law, ordered to the creation of new life and providing a stable relationship in which that new life can flourish. A gay couple, on their own, are physically not capable of producing new life - not because there’s something inherently wrong with their bodies (e.g. sterility), but because their bodies are not designed in the first place to be open to new life with each other. Essentially, their love cannot be real because it cannot be life-giving, which romantic love is ordered to be. Marriage results in a covenanted relationship that unites man and wife to be one person for the rest of their lives. In the Catholic tradition, this becomes a reflection, and a prefiguring, of the Mystical Marriage between Christ, the Eternal Bridegroom, and the Church, His Eternal Bride. Even divorcing religious beliefs from these facts, the fact still remains that only a heterosexual relationship can produce a child. The use of IVF and/or surrogacy to conceive a child is also immoral because it effectively reduces the sperm/egg donor to a walking set of reproductive organs. And, again, the child is no longer a visible symbol of the couple’s love for each other, because only one parent is actually the child’s parent. (This is different from adoption, in which a heterosexual couple gives a home to a child who has already been born. The child is still being raised within the context of how a child is supposed to be raised, which is not possible in a homosexual relationship.)
In Christ,
His_Helpmeet
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CarrieSpooner
Guest
Can you point me to a specific verse or verses that you would like me to read to see the error of my ways? I read Sacred Scripture daily and in fact went to Bible study this morning at my parish. It sounds like you are confusing whether we deserve God’s love with whether we deserve love from each other as commanded by the second of the two greatest commands.
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CarrieSpooner
Guest
I think you’ve misunderstood. May I recommend some Peter Kreeft to you, on why God is hidden? We must first understand our own need in order to find God. We need to seek truth with our hearts.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I’m extremely pro choice and I find this view horrifying and misogynistic. If a woman dares to have sex she should suffer the consequences, but if it was rape she’s off the hook? How disgusting! And where is the man in all of this while the woman is being punished for “sleeping around”?
And a sizable portion of women who get abortions are married. They weren’t raped, but they didn’t sleep around either. What would you allow them for their level of virtue?
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tstrong728
Guest
Sure, but you really need to learn how to use a concordance.
Matthew 22 - the parable of the wedding feast, at 22:8 “Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come.” Later on (Matt 22:11-12) one of those who attended without faith (a wedding garment) was thrown into Hell.
Luke 15 - the parable of the Prodigal Son, at 15:19 “I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.” The prodigal son (a sinner) recognizes that he doesn’t deserve to be treated as a son.
Romans 1 - God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity, beginning at 1:18. Later on at Romans 1:32, Paul said: “Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.” What they deserve, “death”, is to go to Hell.
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EasterJoy
Guest
You will find a lot in the Bible about what we behavior ought to expect out of ourselves, but I can’t think of somewhere that it teaches us to think in terms of what behavior we “deserve” from others. Instead, it teaches us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, to bear with one another.
Our point is not that he ought not be treated well. We ought to expect ourselves to treat everyone with kindness. Our point is that to teach others to think in terms of how they deserve to be treated by others is not a spiritually profitable habit of thought. The Lord teaches his disciples to expect that a Christian can expect some bad treatment in this life; in fact, since this was the treatment he suffered, it does not do for a disciple to form expectations to the contrary.
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man. Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way…Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way. But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
Luke 6: 22-23, 26-28
When the situation warranted it, Our Lord was also quite capable of giving some harsh scoldings! This is not always an unloving way to respond to someone in error, including errors about whether it is the lot of a Christian to suffer at the hands of others this life:
*From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised. Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.” He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.” * Matt. 16: 21-23
Mind you, this is what the Lord had to say to St. Peter in verse 17-19 of the same chapter!! “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
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EasterJoy
Guest
Where is the child in all of this, when adults are given leave to decide whether they live or die?
I see what you are saying, though: that is, who are these people to decide they get to punish a woman or withhold punishment, depending on whether they feel they can “fault” her for getting pregnant? Either her child is a real child, and deserves to live and to have her life defended, or else the pregnancy does not have the standing of a human, in which case it is no business of anyone else to “punish” a woman who becomes pregnant, deigning to give “mercy” to this one but not to that one, even though the difficulties of being a single mother might be very great for both women. It is like people who want to say that women have an obligation to bring pregnancies to term, but no one else in Christendom has any duty to help women in need when they don’t think the women in need “deserve” the help. They want to be judge and jury, but not to lift a finger to carry the load that the woman has to carry.
One cannot defend the mother and not the child, nor defend the child and have no mercy on the mother. There must be mercy for both.
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tstrong728
Guest
That’s actually my point, we don’t deserve Gods love but he gives it to us despite our sinfulness.
I love my neighbor as myself because I was commanded to. Jesus was actually telling us not to try to determine what somebody else deserves, instead we are to love them in spite of what they deserve.
The problem here today in our world is that too many people go around with an expectation that they deserve everything. We need to understand first that we are given more than we deserve but only because of God’s love for us.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I respect the pro life view that abortion should be banned in all cases more than the pro life stance that children are a punishment that a woman should have to endure if she chose sex. Don’t get me wrong, both views are dangerous and immoral, but I find the latter one is even more hostile to women, particularly sexual women.Where is the child in all of this, when adults are given leave to decide whether they live or die?
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CarrieSpooner
Guest
I don’t disagree with most of this however I do think it’s important to realize that people do deserve our love. The reason people deserve our love is precisely because they are members of the Body of Christ and Jesus himself is his Body. This is goes back to what I was saying earlier about how aborting a baby IS aborting Jesus. It all ties together and I think people who have not been indoctrinated are more aware of the hypocrisy of the message “no one should have an abortion” and “you don’t deserve my love”. The main message of Christ and his Church is missed there:
Ephesians 1:22-23
“And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.”
Jesus doesn’t just have a body, he IS his body. And we are members of his Body as children of God. Others deserve our respect and love precisely because they are members of Christ’s body and Christ IS his body. It is Christ who deserves our love and thus all of his members deserve it from us through their adoption into the life of Christ. This is why Jesus asked Saul, “why do you persecute me”, not “why do you persecute Christians”. I think it will be hard for many to understand our doctrine on the dignity of the human person without this key fact. If people do not deserve our love then it’s hard to argue against abortion or anything else. It’s only through God’s grace that we deserve anything. We can not merit this on our own.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
Hi and welcome! 
First off, all are welcome in the church. Come, ask questions, and I hope you are given the full satisfaction you are yearning for on your journey…
Our faith is one of love… the purest love of God. It’s hard to find this perfectly pure love here in this world that is constantly under satan’s attack. We have to choose to be like Christ - not only loving, but SACRIFICIAL in our love. Freely (with our own free will), GIVING of ourselves… entirely… for one another. THAT is Christ’s love. And, it’s hard. And many fail. But the point is to keep trying.
Abortion is always wrong because at the moment of conception a new and unique SOUL is created - one that Christ died for. Every soul is as worthy as another. As a Catholic who believes that we are called to sacrifice for one another, we should encourage those who are suffering and give them assistance in their time of need, but that doesn’t mean they should turn around and harm another soul during the process.
Christ established the Church here on Earth to help guide us to Him. He established the beauty of the Sacraments to help show us the EASIEST path to holiness… not as a set of “rules and regulations”, but as a guide for finding Him. Sacramental holy matrimony was established to be the basic cell structure of society… where God entrusted a man and woman to fully give of themselves (by free will) to each other… as the safest and purest ground for a new soul to be raised to Him. Homosexual unions, while legal now in many states, can never be (by God’s own design) the establishment of the basic cell structure of society.
Now, this is all politics-aside… and how the local councils of bishops decide to lobby really has no fundamental say in the matter. Sure, there may be ways to give political rights to homosexual couples in a civil matter… that’s all aside from the true teachings of the faith, and fundamentally unimportant to the faith. Normally those political/civil rights that the homosexual couples are trying to achieve can be figured out without projecting them into some sort of pseudo-marriage-mockery. Does that make sense?
Prayers for you during this time on your journey!!! God bless you!
First off, all are welcome in the church. Come, ask questions, and I hope you are given the full satisfaction you are yearning for on your journey…
Our faith is one of love… the purest love of God. It’s hard to find this perfectly pure love here in this world that is constantly under satan’s attack. We have to choose to be like Christ - not only loving, but SACRIFICIAL in our love. Freely (with our own free will), GIVING of ourselves… entirely… for one another. THAT is Christ’s love. And, it’s hard. And many fail. But the point is to keep trying.
Abortion is always wrong because at the moment of conception a new and unique SOUL is created - one that Christ died for. Every soul is as worthy as another. As a Catholic who believes that we are called to sacrifice for one another, we should encourage those who are suffering and give them assistance in their time of need, but that doesn’t mean they should turn around and harm another soul during the process.
Christ established the Church here on Earth to help guide us to Him. He established the beauty of the Sacraments to help show us the EASIEST path to holiness… not as a set of “rules and regulations”, but as a guide for finding Him. Sacramental holy matrimony was established to be the basic cell structure of society… where God entrusted a man and woman to fully give of themselves (by free will) to each other… as the safest and purest ground for a new soul to be raised to Him. Homosexual unions, while legal now in many states, can never be (by God’s own design) the establishment of the basic cell structure of society.
Now, this is all politics-aside… and how the local councils of bishops decide to lobby really has no fundamental say in the matter. Sure, there may be ways to give political rights to homosexual couples in a civil matter… that’s all aside from the true teachings of the faith, and fundamentally unimportant to the faith. Normally those political/civil rights that the homosexual couples are trying to achieve can be figured out without projecting them into some sort of pseudo-marriage-mockery. Does that make sense?
Prayers for you during this time on your journey!!! God bless you!
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tstrong728
Guest
The Pro-Life stance is that children are always a blessing from God, no Pro-lifer ever said “children are a punishment”. The closest this thread ever came to that was the OP’s pro-abortion posts, the OP is not Catholic (yet) because they are unwilling to accept the Church’s Pro-Life teaching that Abortion is Murder.
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CarrieSpooner
Guest
No argument there. I have stated nothing to contradict the above.
A lot of people desire to understand the principle behind the command.
Can you point to where Jesus was telling us such a thing? I do agree that Jesus does not want us to determine who doesn’t deserve our love but rather to love everyone. I believe this is because everyone deserves our love as members of Christ’s Body.
I don’t know if I agree with that. That seems a bit simplistic to me. I think too many people are simply broken and lacking in love, looking for it in all the wrong places because they don’t understand their need for God. Love is the solution. And God is love.
This is true – that we are given more than we deserve because of God’s love for us. No argument there.
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CarrieSpooner
Guest
None of these verses state what you claim. None of them speak at all to whether adopted sons and daughters deserve love from their brothers and sisters in Christ. You seem to be making a straw man argument based on whether people deserve God’s grace.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I respect the view that no one should ever get an abortion because I do believe that their hearts are in the right place. No, I don’t agree with it, but they think that they are trying to save the lives of babies.
I can’t give the same benefit of the doubt to the OPs view. Viewing pregnancy as a consequence that a woman deserves for being sexually active, but as a burden that can be relieved if she isn’t at fault for the sex is wrong. That view is not about the “life of the baby”, but about punishing and controlling women.
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JCC1990
Guest
All I can say is wow.
I’m talking to my sponsor and, depending on what his advice is in this situation as well as my local fathers opinion. Depending upon results, you will never hear from ‘my kind’ again. With results like this, its no wonder the Church is in decline in the developed world. This is not about me; this is about where I am. I am not so stupid to just blindly accept what someone tells me. That is doing a disservice to God and to myself. To be honest, I have loved everything about the Church thus far, I’m not saying that my opinion can’t change, but I will not, force somebody to practice or believe what I do. That is an injustice, and is one of the most immoral things a person can do.
I’m done with this thread. If I have any follow up questions I’ll post them in a different one.
Thank you for opening eyes.
I’m talking to my sponsor and, depending on what his advice is in this situation as well as my local fathers opinion. Depending upon results, you will never hear from ‘my kind’ again. With results like this, its no wonder the Church is in decline in the developed world. This is not about me; this is about where I am. I am not so stupid to just blindly accept what someone tells me. That is doing a disservice to God and to myself. To be honest, I have loved everything about the Church thus far, I’m not saying that my opinion can’t change, but I will not, force somebody to practice or believe what I do. That is an injustice, and is one of the most immoral things a person can do.
I’m done with this thread. If I have any follow up questions I’ll post them in a different one.
Thank you for opening eyes.
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Cider
Guest
You mean other than the death of the child? I’d call that a physical side effect. We are to care for both the mother and the child. Abortion cares for neither.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
I agree that this thread is rather harsh… I’m sorry that this is your introduction to the church. Please don’t take these harsh responses as the church’s gospel.
God bless you.
God bless you.
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