Social Justice groups such as JustFaith, CCHD, IAF

[St_Francis]

I think you are hitting on an important issue. One of the great things about the Roman Catholic Church is the fact that we have perhaps the richest academic tradition as any religious or non-religious tradition in the world. Our Tradition, which includes the Sacraments, hospitals, schools, religious vocations and so on, has produced some of the best thinkers and prayers the world has ever know and done so for a very long time. It is both as you seem to be pointing to a blessing and in some way a curse.

The curse part is that one could study this most beautiful Tradition’s academic and spiritual deposits for an entire life time and only scratch the surface.

That’s not a curse—that’s terrific All those books…

But the good news is that when we study our wonderful religion it almost always raises one’s mind and heart to God. Just like the parable of the land owner who goes out and hires people to work in his field and pays the one who worked all day the same as the one who worked only an hour; it doesn’t matter when or where you start to study our religion, just start and it will pay.

I still don’t think that Catholicism is so complicated that you need a PhD in order to figure out if your pastor is preaching Catholicism or something else. (I have had pastors like that—they *do *exist!.)

I don’t think the documents of V2 are unnecessarily dense or unintelligible.

I didn’t say that they were dense or unintelligible. I said they were ambiguous and hard to understand in light of tradition, and that if someone who doesn’t even know tradition read them, they would not get Catholic teaching out of them.

I think they reflect the fact that being Catholic is not easy.

No, I think that is a misunderstanding. There is writing clearly about things which are hard to understand, and there is writing ambiguously. The two are different, and there is no excuse for bad writing from people who are supposed to be teaching and who have as much education as those at the Council had.

It should be a challenge to understand our faith because we are ultimately trying to understand the mystery of all that it means that Jesus came as equally human and divine, He was born of a Virgin, He died and was raised again. This kind of learning takes lots of study and lots of prayer.

To me, there is a certain basic amount that a Catholic needs to start off with, but no one will ever fully understand these mysteries you cite, and most of that understanding will come through prayer and meditation.

One of the other things that I think is wonderful about our tradition is that it is best studied in groups. Catholicism is the most relational religion in the world. That is because our Church is Incarnational and Trinitarian.
What that means is that our Church, being Incarnational reflects that Jesus came as a person with a real body and Jesus is mediated through our bodies’ senses and our minds. But we are also Trinitarian which means that things are best done in relationship. Our Church reflects these two principles in all we do, including catechesis and evangelization.
The teaching of the Church is not something that really can be taught or understood in isolation or outside of a relational environment. We need each other to help us understand the meaning. That’s what priests, catechetical leaders, professors and your parish are for. Our parishes are much more than places to receive the Sacraments as important and central as that is. They are also places of learning and questions.
We cannot learn Catholicism in isolation. That is good news, because it reflects the fact that God is Love and love is what is shared at our parishes.

OK, could you please start talking plain English instead of saying things like “taught outside a relational environment” and “catechetical leader”?

The problem is that the ambiguity of the V2 documents has filtered down to the poor laity —who are supposed to be taught—either totally wrong or else watered down to a slender shadow of Catholic truth. My children learned the Baltimore Catechism, and they knew more than some of their CCD teachers—I’m not bragging here, just stating a fact—and way, way more than almost all the students in their CCD classes. And I saw the books they were using in those classes, and could easily see the reason for that. There’s so little Catholic substance in the catechetical materials because potential relational aspects of the catechumens’ temporal lives were over-emphasized.

 

[ljpgoodwin]

I still don’t think that Catholicism is so complicated that you need a PhD in order to figure out if your pastor is preaching Catholicism or something else.

I think there is a lot in the academic tradition that having a higher education can help with. When I say, ask your pastor to help…that’s what he is for, I’m talking about having him offer classes on some of the more difficult parts of our tradition.
I think a lot of times when someone accuses a pastor of “preaching non-Catholic” things, the problem is that the pastor did not do the ground work to help people understand what he is saying. I’m not saying that sometimes the preaching can be so bad that it isn’t theologically dubious.

I didn’t say that they were dense or unintelligible. I said they were ambiguous and hard to understand in light of tradition, and that if someone who doesn’t even know tradition read them, they would not get Catholic teaching out of them.

A lot of the documents written by our Church are not meant for non-Catholics readers. If you read the opening greeting of the document, it will tell you who the intended audience is. Some documents start off with something like “To my fellow Bishops, Priests and Christians, the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ…” and some start off with something like “To all peoples of the World, God’s peace be with you”.
The ambiguity of the documents is deliberate. It’s not a matter of good or bad writing. The fact that it is written with a certain amount of ambiguity is, itself, a teaching tool. This is a great example of what I mean that we can’t read these documents outside of a faith community. Sometimes we need people who are trained in teaching and reading Vatican documents to help us learn the ins and outs of reading such documents. The structure of the document, how it’s presented, the time of year or date it is presented all have teaching elements to them as well. It’s all about “text and context”. This is a good thing.
Many of the documents are dense and esoteric. For instance in order to read Humanae Vitae well, it is real helpful to know that JP2 was writing a polemic against a rising trend in moral theology called Fundamental Freedom. Then, it’s also helpful to know what Fundamental Freedom means and why it’s important to write a polemic against it.
When we have a better understanding of the conversation that is going on behind many of the documents, it can change the way we understand the meaning and help us get to the intended meaning.

No, I think that is a misunderstanding. There is writing clearly about things which are hard to understand, and there is writing ambiguously. The two are different, and there is no excuse for bad writing from people who are supposed to be teaching and who have as much education as those at the Council had.

Ambiguity does no equal bad writing. It is a pedagogical tool. When you were teaching your kids, did you ever ask them a question that there is no absolute correct answer for? I assume you did. The point of such questions is not to drive people crazy, it’s a tool to help people think critically. This is also a great thing about the Catholic tradition over above our Fundamentalist friends. We are taught to think critically not in black and white terms. There are not right or wrong answers to every question. Our Fundamentalist friends think the Bible has THEE right answer for ever question people can ask. That is scary.

To me, there is a certain basic amount that a Catholic needs to start off with, but no one will ever fully understand these mysteries you cite, and most of that understanding will come through prayer and meditation.

Sure, prayer and meditation are fundamental practices for understanding our faith. But so is rigorous study. We need both prayer and study. God created us as spiritual and rational beings. So to come to know God, we need to use both of these faculties. One is not more important than the other. Prayer without study is empty and study without prayer is dangerous.

OK, could you please start talking plain English instead of saying things like “taught outside a relational environment” and “catechetical leader”?

What I am trying to say is that our faith is not a faith that is meant to be learned by one’s self. Our faith is a kind of faith in which we learn just as much about it by learning it in groups as we do by the words on the page we are reading. Again, it’s all about “text and context”. That is what I mean by a relational environment. Catholicism is not a “Me and Jesus” or “Jesus is my personal savior” kind of religion. Catholicism is just as much about my relationship with the people in my community and parish as it is about my relationship with Jesus.

The problem is that the ambiguity of the V2 documents has filtered down to the poor laity —who are supposed to be taught—either totally wrong or else watered down to a slender shadow of Catholic truth. My children learned the Baltimore Catechism, and they knew more than some of their CCD teachers—I’m not bragging here, just stating a fact—and way, way more than almost all the students in their CCD classes. And I saw the books they were using in those classes, and could easily see the reason for that. There’s so little Catholic substance in the catechetical materials because potential relational aspects of the catechumens’ temporal lives were over-emphasized.

I agree with you. The Roman Catholic Church has in many ways dropped the ball as far as catechetics goes. This is a big problem in our Church that the bishops from around the world have been talking a lot about in the last 15 years. The answer is not the Baltimore Catechism, however. The BC teaches a very specific kind of information but it has its problems too. It lacks a practical pastoral treatment of what it means to be a Christian. I don’t know if you have ever seen the “National Directory of Catechesis”? It talks about this very issue. It’s a wonderful resource for learning about catechetical and evangelical issues.
Personally, I like the Second Edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992?). It’s a wonderful reference resource to use when teaching about our faith. The information presented in the new CCC, I think, is much more comprehensive and useful than the BC. Another problem with the BC is that many people who were taught from it, think that if people can just remember its contents, that’s all they needed to know about our Church. I’m not suggesting that that is what you did with your kids. But it was a common misconception and diminished understanding of what it means to be catechized.
I think I have the quote, respond thing down now. Thanks for helping me with that.

 

[St_Francis]

I think there is a lot in the academic tradition that having a higher education can help with. When I say, ask your pastor to help…that’s what he is for, I’m talking about having him offer classes on some of the more difficult parts of our tradition.
I think a lot of times when someone accuses a pastor of “preaching non-Catholic” things, the problem is that the pastor did not do the ground work to help people understand what he is saying. I’m not saying that sometimes the preaching can be so bad that it isn’t theologically dubious.

As a regular Jane in the pew, I can assure you that priests are saying a lot of stuff that doesn’t teach Catholicism, and that a lot is not Church teaching. Not everywhere, by any means.

I mean, we had All Souls’ Day *on Sunday *a couple of years ago–how many priests mentioned that one could obtain a plenary indugence *each day of that week and both Sundays? *I have never heard *one word *about indulgences from the pulpit, not even right before First Holy Communion or any of the other times when it would be quite easy to (try to) get one!

A lot of the documents written by our Church are not meant for non-Catholics readers. If you read the opening greeting of the document, it will tell you who the intended audience is. Some documents start off with something like “To my fellow Bishops, Priests and Christians, the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ…” and some start off with something like “To all peoples of the World, God’s peace be with you”.

Well, looking at the V2 documents at the Vatican website, I don’t see these types of openings, they just jump right in.

The ambiguity of the documents is deliberate. It’s not a matter of good or bad writing. The fact that it is written with a certain amount of ambiguity is, itself, a teaching tool. This is a great example of what I mean that we can’t read these documents outside of a faith community. Sometimes we need people who are trained in teaching and reading Vatican documents to help us learn the ins and outs of reading such documents. The structure of the document, how it’s presented, the time of year or date it is presented all have teaching elements to them as well. It’s all about “text and context”. This is a good thing.

Give me a break! Look at the documents from previous councils–they are clear and concise.

I can certainly understand that people need to have sufficient education to understand certain documents or else a teacher. That’s perfectly understandable. But these are not supposed to be used for teaching but for explicating.

Many of the documents are dense and esoteric. For instance in order to read Humanae Vitae well, it is real helpful to know that JP2 was writing a polemic against a rising trend in moral theology called Fundamental Freedom. Then, it’s also helpful to know what Fundamental Freedom means and why it’s important to write a polemic against it.
When we have a better understanding of the conversation that is going on behind many of the documents, it can change the way we understand the meaning and help us get to the intended meaning.

I can understand that knowing background information makes our understanding deeper, but we don’t all need to know all of that, but we do need to know that we are not supposed to use artificial birth control. What does the document say about that?

It is nice that people can do what you are doing in terms of studying the documents, but not all of us have the resources necessary for that.

 

[St_Francis]

Ambiguity does no equal bad writing. It is a pedagogical tool. When you were teaching your kids, did you ever ask them a question that there is no absolute correct answer for? I assume you did.

If there is no absolute correct answer, then I assume that what is asked for is opinion rather than fact, no? And yet the state of our eternal souls can rest upon our understanding Church teaching, not having opinions about it, or having to already understand it in order to read about it.

The point of such questions is not to drive people crazy, it’s a tool to help people think critically. This is also a great thing about the Catholic tradition over above our Fundamentalist friends. We are taught to think critically not in black and white terms. There are not right or wrong answers to every question. Our Fundamentalist friends think the Bible has THE right answer for ever question people can ask. That is scary.

This is a wonderful thing about Catholicism. I think that our study of the BC helped my children to be able to think very logically, analytically, and consistently.

Sure, prayer and meditation are fundamental practices for understanding our faith. But so is rigorous study. We need both prayer and study. God created us as spiritual and rational beings. So to come to know God, we need to use both of these faculties. One is not more important than the other. Prayer without study is empty and study without prayer is dangerous.

A lot of people have achieved sainthood without all that knowledge, but none has without prayer. I would not call prayer without study empty *at all. *

What I am trying to say is that our faith is not a faith that is meant to be learned by one’s self. Our faith is a kind of faith in which we learn just as much about it by learning it in groups as we do by the words on the page we are reading. Again, it’s all about “text and context”. That is what I mean by a relational environment. Catholicism is not a “Me and Jesus” or “Jesus is my personal savior” kind of religion. Catholicism is just as much about my relationship with the people in my community and parish as it is about my relationship with Jesus.

I understood what you meant. I just don’t like to see people using fancy language when plain English can be used.

I would disagree with you. Hermits have achieved sainthood. Moreover, in terms of holiness, our relationship with other people is based on our relationship with the Lord, no? so our relationships with others would be a secondary priority.

I agree with you. The Roman Catholic Church has in many ways dropped the ball as far as catechetics goes. This is a big problem in our Church that the bishops from around the world have been talking a lot about in the last 15 years. The answer is not the Baltimore Catechism, however. The BC teaches a very specific kind of information but it has its problems too. It lacks a practical pastoral treatment of what it means to be a Christian. I don’t know if you have ever seen the “National Directory of Catechesis”? It talks about this very issue. It’s a wonderful resource for learning about catechetical and evangelical issues.
Personally, I like the Second Edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992?). It’s a wonderful reference resource to use when teaching about our faith. The information presented in the new CCC, I think, is much more comprehensive and useful than the BC.

Well, I have seen the results of people being catechized with materials which take a “pastoral approach” and these students *do not know their faith. *

I know a lot of people like the CCC, but I found it very difficult to understand specifics from it. It was not meant to be used to teach people from scratch; it was supposed to be used to develop other materials from specific to the audiences, which is precisely what the BC was: textbooks for students in the US.

Another problem with the BC is that many people who were taught from it, think that if people can just remember its contents, that’s all they needed to know about our Church. I’m not suggesting that that is what you did with your kids. But it was a common misconception and diminished understanding of what it means to be catechized.

Well, if they got the full dose of the BC, they knew more than students using the current textbooks. Moreover, they knew what they needed to know. How can it be necessary for salvation to learn as much as a PhD in theology?

Last Lent I brought up the idea of giving something up, and my students were stunned. They had no background for why anyone would give anything up for Lent, and they didn’t get that we do it because Christ died for us. Some of those students had been in CCD all along, and these were 12- and 13-year-olds.

And this is in the CCD program that I *like. *The others were *worse. *(Nothing like a 5th-grade CCD teacher who doesn’t know what Purgatory is…)

It’s been 45 years since V2. My mother, my aunts and uncles, all left the Church after V2. They are all getting older, and think “been there; done that” about the Church. That’s one generation lost. My brother and sister got even less Catholic teaching than I did–I don’t even know that they were confirmed. My cousins… also not living a Catholic life.

And their children of course are not being taught anything at all about the Faith. That’s 3 generations lost. My nephew is an 8-year-old atheist, and his parents are fine with that.

(It’s not that I do not understand that they might return, but that they are totally content with where they are. They think that since their hearts are in the right place, they will be ok if there’s anything after death.)

I think I have the quote, respond thing down now. Thanks for helping me with that.

I’m glad that was helpful. It can be tricky learning how to do all this stuff.

 

[fultonfish]

Two things:

First, can I borrow that quote from Obama about the post office? I would love to add it to the bottom of my signature line. It’s fabulous. The more I think about that line, the more exercised I get about what the government and the left is trying to do to us.

Second, anyone interested in learning what the Catholic Church is all about could start off easily with the Baltimore Catechism. It is well written and basic without all the circumlocution put forward by some people such as that goodwin poster.

The CCC – the official catechism of the Catholic Church is EXCELLENT, but it is not for people just starting out in their inquiries. But it should be on their bookshelf for reference for when they get curious about getting more detail.

 

[Mimi]

Does anyone else here see the coincidence of allowing dissident theologians to participate in V2; the ambiguous wording of V2 documents; the non-prudential implementation of V2 goals; the secularization of Catholic colleges and schools; the tolerance of practicing homosexuals in Holy Orders and Religious life; the formation of programs such as CCHD - all of which occurred in the tumultuous 1960s, and which have “inexplicably” lead to the current sordid state of affairs in the Church?

YES! That’s why I started some threads on CA Forum and have devoted time and study to – not only my faith – but how the Church is being infiltrated by those who say they are Catholic, but really want to make the Church more “democratic”, thus protestantizing and politicizing her and her people causing more division, NOT unity.

The world now has both feet planted in the Church. Oh, we have Jesus’ promise that she won’t fall, but she is staggering under the weight of the cross of heterodoxy. Who is the Simon of Cyrene who will help to carry? It appears that we all are.

As I’m getting back to this thread rather late in the game, I see I should have checked back earlier to state my defense. Been busy educating and fighting the encroachment of a Community Organization here which has been trying to gain support in my own parish. They already have the support of the 2 other parishes here, one of whom is linked with my parish (same priest). What does this tell you about the leadership here??

More in a followup post; I don’t want to lose what I’ve written here and need to go back and copy some quotations.

Thanks to all for a civil exchange (and one which defends Holy Mother Church)!
Po18guy, Tigg, and St. Francis for so much support!
Virtual high-5’s, fist bumps to you.

Prayers to all. May we all become more emboldened to defend the Church when these scandals are causing many to doubt and abandon her in her time of need.

Mimi

 

[Tigg]

Two things:

First, can I borrow that quote from Obama about the post office? I would love to add it to the bottom of my signature line. It’s fabulous. The more I think about that line, the more exercised I get about what the government and the left is trying to do to us.

Second, anyone interested in learning what the Catholic Church is all about could start off easily with the Baltimore Catechism. It is well written and basic without all the circumlocution put forward by some people such as that goodwin poster.

The CCC – the official catechism of the Catholic Church is EXCELLENT, but it is not for people just starting out in their inquiries. But it should be on their bookshelf for reference for when they get curious about getting more detail.

Another thought - It is rather ironic, don’t you think, **that those of us who are experiencing excruciating scandal **by the actions of certain of our hierarchy, are being accused of a lack of charity, of being UN-Catholic, and not being united with the “Church.” I guess in this age of political correctness, that must stand first and foremost, and the idea of not aiding and abetting moral evil is less than crucial.

But peace, brother! All these social justice groups who are diametrically opposed to True Church teaching, will make certain the poor are raised to a level equal to the rest of society by playing Robin Hood. Wait just a minute…forget the Catechism…it only aids us on our pathway to FAITH because it is TRUTH! The crisis here is that we are losing the Faith. We are throwing it away because, we are, after all, sooooo very smart and intellectual and the cure for poverty and healthcare have circumvented Truth. I guess we no longer need it. I praise the Lord HE is truly the Just One and all this deception being acted out before our very eyes - good being declared evil and evil being declared good, will be exposed in the end.

 

[Tigg]

YES! That’s why I started some threads on CA Forum and have devoted time and study to – not only my faith – but how the Church is being infiltrated by those who say they are Catholic, but really want to make the Church more “democratic”, thus protestantizing and politicizing her and her people causing more division, NOT unity.

Mimi

:extrahappy:

Yea!! Mimi is back!

 

[St_Francis]

Two things:

First, can I borrow that quote from Obama about the post office? I would love to add it to the bottom of my signature line. It’s fabulous. The more I think about that line, the more exercised I get about what the government and the left is trying to do to us.

Will you return it when you’re finished with it

Seriously, it’s not mine. Oddly enough, I ran across another quote that I was thinking of putting in my sig line, so soon I may not have it myself.

Second, anyone interested in learning what the Catholic Church is all about could start off easily with the Baltimore Catechism. It is well written and basic without all the circumlocution put forward by some people such as that goodwin poster.

I think I have learned more from the BC than from the CCC, but of course the CCC is more comprehensive and covers more topics. Mr Goodwin is ok, he’s just enthusiastic.

The CCC – the official catechism of the Catholic Church is EXCELLENT, but it is not for people just starting out in their inquiries. But it should be on their bookshelf for reference for when they get curious about getting more detail.

I’ve run across people who used the CCC as beginners and they were fine with it. Maybe it’s more a question of personalities.

 

[Mimi]

ljpgoodwin wrote, in part:

The civil rights and the right for women to vote…how can you argue against that?

Okay - gotta set a few things straight here:

It is historical fact that Dr. Martin Luther King was a REPUBLICAN.
More civil rights acts were enacted by REPUBLICANS.
Women’s Suffrage was won by REPUBLICANS. (Women Liberationists were also PRO-LIFE back then. How times have changed.)

I think we can agree that Republicans have pretty much been considered politically Conservative.

The KKK was supported (in its inception) by DEMOCRATS.
Woodrow Wilson was a card-carrying member of the KKK!

And since when did the RC Church EVER condone slavery?? Talk about being responsible for your sources. Sheesh.

Social Security was meant to be a TEMPORARY solution. Now it’s almost bankrupt. As a member of the “baby boomers” generation, I feel quite shortchanged. Because of demographics, the younger generation is feeling particularly burdened at having to fund this program. That was very shortsighted of the ones who perpetuated the SSI program. DEMOCRATS (and esp Leftists) are always instituting and demanding more and more social welfare programs.

Even our school system is a welfare program, depending on our tax dollars (and also our cooperation) to keep it going. And they are always whining about not having enough $$ despite the fact that funding HAS INCREASED over the last 30 yrs! In the 1850’s, children were forcibly marched to the public schoolhouse; parents objected v strongly to this govt. intrusion (for this, read John Taylor Gatto’s well-written and well-researched book, The Underground History of American Education). johntaylorgatto.com/ The book can be read online.

Homeschooling my kids for 15 yrs (how’s that for some direct experience) opened my eyes to the fact that the GRTF (govt. run tax funded) school system is actually an indoctrination center for American youth. I got into it for ideological reasons (it just seemed to make sense) and then saw the continued politicization of the system. Recently it was reported (yes, on FOX NEWS) that 99% of grtf schoolteachers are DEMOCRATS. The teacher’s unions support the Dem. party.

This is all part of a large Ideological Shift which has had its roots way back (I’d say, in the Garden of Eden at a certain Tree), but more recently, in the “enlightenment” period (1700’s) and institutionalization of Moral Relativism via our grtf school system. We can DO something about that! Support your local parochial school, or homeschool!

Here’s a link where you can learn more:
archive.org/details/DemocracyinAmericaOTR

I am sure there is more that the political Right has done to preserve and defend (or at least try to defend) family values and true freedoms for Americans. I see the current trend toward less personal freedom and more govt. intrusion/regulation. It is often this overregulation that makes it difficult for the free market to operate and generate, for example, lower prices and options in health care/insurance. Companies have a right to make a profit – how much? Sky’s the limit as far as I’m concerned, as long as it’s done ethically.

Hey, ever wonder why there is no outcry from certain ultra-rich folks like rappers and sports celeb’s re the Spreading the Wealth Around doctrine? Hmmmm.

As to FOX NEWS Ch – the reason they have been The consistently rated news program over ALL the other networks combined is that they do live up to their slogan: Fair and balanced. Mr. O has liberals on all the time. Beck has exposed this vast network of leftists, of which the Gamaliel Foundation is a part (though he has yet to mention it). He does this at great risk to himself and family; he has to have bodyguards 24/7.

But I am digressing into making this about politics, which undoubtedly affects the way the Church (and individuals in individual parishes) operate.

(more in a followup)

 

[Mimi]

post #45

You list Karl Rahner as a “dissident”! Wow, that’s a bold statement. It kinda seems that Rahner is higly respected by even the most conservitive theologians of our day

I will try reading Communio, ljpgoodwin. Is it available online? Would you be kind enough to send information, please?

Okay, I admit I am just getting up to speed on Who’s Who in Catholicism. As to your question:

Mimi listed Karl Rahner as a “dissident”. I would love to hear Mimi discuss Rahner, at length in her/his own words telling my why Rahner is a “dissident”. I don’t want to read about some anonymous blogger thoughts. Give me a well thought out original thought that shows that someone has really thought about and studied in a university classroom some reason that Rahner should be called a “dissident”.

Is that too much to ask?

Yes, that would be too much to ask! I have a Life, and the most I can do right now is read articles at (what I perceive to be) reputable orthodox Catholic sites, such as Catholic Culture. It seems that Rahner was, at one time, a well respected theologian, but that he got off the beaten path and started being quoted. It was not until recently that I realized it must have been he that was being quoted (possibly on NPR to which I listened more when I was in my 20’s) – that “a sin isn’t a sin unless YOU think it is” ; I’m paraphrasing, but that what I recall. That led me to a real wishy-washy Christianity and a host of personal problems (not that I’m blaming Rahner). Just do a search at
www.catholicculture.org
One article, by a repsected cleric and staff member (?) of Stuebenville University, Fr. Regis Scanlan (Capuchin Franciscan Order), is Non-Infallibility: The Pope and Rahner. Other articles there attest to his ideas being problematic.

More about Fr. Scanlan here:
franciscan.edu/about/Default.aspx?id=1184
and
franciscan.edu/about/Default.aspx?id=63&ekmensel=15074e5e_12_0_63_3
He’s Chancellor. He hosts a show on EWTN tv; Franciscan University Presents.

For the record, I’m not going so far as to saying anyone is a Heretic. But it is my right as a Catholic to be taught the faith and also a duty to defend it. Hence, my research shows the connection between various dissidents and the current form of Community Organizing that is infiltrating and sneakily undermining our Church, one person, one parish at a time. Too bad some dioceses did not vet these org’s more closely. Perhpas it is bc the Office of Social Justice was headed by a person who agreed with Progressivist/Modernist interpretation of social justice (i.e., Liberation Theology).

At the risk of being political again:
I recall the the words of Ronald Reagan, who ended the Cold War (and was a Republican conservative): “The scariest words you’ll ever hear are: We’re the government and we’re here to help you!” He called for the dissolution of the Dept of Education, too, but was not successful. Too bad.

God bless all - Pray to St Therese on this, her Feast Day, for a New Enlightenment and true renewal of our Church!

Mimi

 

[yayi238]

I’m fairly new to Catholic Answers but can I second that “Yea!” for Mimi?

I started this thread because I had concerns about the JustFaith program and Jack Jezreel, the founder. Somehow the responses to my concerns became political and seemingly only able to be answered if I read encyclicals and pretty much followed a course on becoming a theologian.
I’m a Catholic who wants to be true to Catholic teaching so when our parish sent home info on JustFaith I did some research because I had never heard of it. What I happened to find concerned me. But, I was told JF came with the blessing of CCHD, Catholic Relief Services and Catholic Charities and if I needed any reassurances I should ask those agencies. Well, that sounded much too circular --asking the sponsoring agencies if what they sponsor is on the up and up.

Mimi, you sound like the voice of clarity and reason.

Would you consider my concerns with JustFaith legitimate?
Are they a true to Catholic organization in their purpose and methods?

Thank you for any info you can provide.
The Truth will set us all free.

 

[jewells17]

I’m fairly new to Catholic Answers but can I second that “Yea!” for Mimi?

I started this thread because I had concerns about the JustFaith program and Jack Jezreel, the founder. Somehow the responses to my concerns became political and seemingly only able to be answered if I read encyclicals and pretty much followed a course on becoming a theologian.
I’m a Catholic who wants to be true to Catholic teaching so when our parish sent home info on JustFaith I did some research because I had never heard of it. What I happened to find concerned me. But, I was told JF came with the blessing of CCHD, Catholic Relief Services and Catholic Charities and if I needed any reassurances I should ask those agencies. Well, that sounded much too circular --asking the sponsoring agencies if what they sponsor is on the up and up.

Mimi, you sound like the voice of clarity and reason.

Are they a true to Catholic organization in their purpose and methods?

Thank you for any info you can provide.
The Truth will set us all free./QUO
Yea…Mimi is back and she is a voice of clarity and wisdom! Unlike Mr. LB Badlose! Listen to her…she knows her stuff.

 

[Mimi]

Okay, okay, enough with the ‘Yeah for Mimi’…
I credit the Holy Spirit for leading me to Stephanie Block’s material, and Discover the Networks before that.

But thanks for the encouragement. Many of us have certainly been discouraged in my neck of the woods.

Really, I owe so much to the many fine articles at Catholic Media Coalition
www.catholicmediacoalition.org

If you are coming up against anything you think might be questionable, do the research. Follow links provided at the group’s own web site, such as who their leaders are; google them (maybe along with Call to Action) and see what comes up. There are SO many of these groups around now, one can be fooled into thinking they are orthodox, but ask questions and find out if they are linked to dissident org’s such as Voice of the Faithful, Catholics for a Free choice (pro-abortion), Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, etc.

With the information you collect, you could develop and print out a Fact-Sheet flier to hand out to those you want to educate. Or create a pamphlet. Be sure to provide links (that are credible, NOT blogs), and be able to state from the group’s own material why it is incompatible with authentic Catholic teaching.

PM or email me for a sample. There may still be one on the CCHD funding ACORN that is out of date now at CMC, but it’s a good model. Some stuff about Alinsky in it, too.

The hard part is trying to convince people to stay Catholic amid all this scandal!

Let’s pray for each other and hope the exposing of community organizing groups infiltrating the Church has the effect of getting the faithful to be more defensive and stand up for the Truth.

St. Therese of Lisieux, pray for us!

Mimi

PS Stephanie Block would even come to give a talk to your group - just ask; she’s really nice!

 

[Mimi]

I’m fairly new to Catholic Answers but can I second that “Yea!” for Mimi?

I started this thread because I had concerns about the JustFaith program and Jack Jezreel, the founder. Somehow the responses to my concerns became political and seemingly only able to be answered if I read encyclicals and pretty much followed a course on becoming a theologian.
I’m a Catholic who wants to be true to Catholic teaching so when our parish sent home info on JustFaith I did some research because I had never heard of it. What I happened to find concerned me. But, I was told JF came with the blessing of CCHD, Catholic Relief Services and Catholic Charities and if I needed any reassurances I should ask those agencies. Well, that sounded much too circular --asking the sponsoring agencies if what they sponsor is on the up and up.

Mimi, you sound like the voice of clarity and reason.

Would you consider my concerns with JustFaith legitimate?
Are they a true to Catholic organization in their purpose and methods?

Thank you for any info you can provide.
The Truth will set us all free.

Just googled ‘justfaith’ and looky what came up!
fratres.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/justfaith-vs-the-catholic-faith/

JustFaith vs the Catholic Faith
August 22, 2008 — james mary evans

By Stephanie Block

JustFaith claims it will “energiz[e] social ministry.” Along with scores of other dioceses, the Archdiocese of Santa Fe has been inviting interested Catholics to participate in this expensive program – the registration fee $250 each year for each participant, who must each buy a set of 11-13 books each year, costing $115-$125. The 30-week program also requires showing 14-16 videos every year at a cost of $300-$350 and recommends additional speakers, who are available, of course, for a stipend… not to mention the costs accrued from mandatory weekend retreats.

Expense isn’t the issue, however – the product is. JustFaith is a liberationist propaganda vehicle, a “conversion-based process”, to train participants to “become advocates for justice.”

Happy researching, and let me know what happens!

May I also suggest praying to St. Michael and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.

Mimi

 

[Mimi]

I decided to have a look at the CMC site. Be sure to read (or download and save to read later) the
Dossier on Liberationism and the USCCB (Word file)

by Stephanie Block !
The link for this is in the middle column; scroll down until you see the title.

This lady isn’t messin’ around.

I think we may have to start a new thread on this topic.

Mimi

 

[fultonfish]

yayi238;5768530:

I’m fairly new to Catholic Answers but can I second that “Yea!” for Mimi?

I started this thread because I had concerns about the JustFaith program and Jack Jezreel, the founder. Somehow the responses to my concerns became political and seemingly only able to be answered if I read encyclicals and pretty much followed a course on becoming a theologian.
I’m a Catholic who wants to be true to Catholic teaching so when our parish sent home info on JustFaith I did some research because I had never heard of it. What I happened to find concerned me. But, I was told JF came with the blessing of CCHD, Catholic Relief Services and Catholic Charities and if I needed any reassurances I should ask those agencies. Well, that sounded much too circular --asking the sponsoring agencies if what they sponsor is on the up and up.

Mimi, you sound like the voice of clarity and reason.

Are they a true to Catholic organization in their purpose and methods?

Thank you for any info you can provide.
The Truth will set us all free.[/QUO
Yea…Mimi is back and she is a voice of clarity and wisdom! Unlike Mr. LB Badlose! Listen to her…she knows her stuff.

Sowing confusion is the first tactic of radicals.

I used to attend social concerns annual “expo” meetings and I was shocked, shocked and scandalized at the “booths” of the left wing radical [and outright Communist] groups because when you got right down to it, their heros were people like Che Guevara. These folks didn’t even hide their true allegiance except from the average Catholic in the pew.

I mean there wasn’t much I could say to them. There was no arguing or discussing with them because they were just undisguised Marxists. [Yes, you can argue whether a Marxist is a Communist is a Socialist is a Leninist is a Maoist.]

And they adopted pretty colors to disguise themselves from the average lay person.

[/quote]

 

[yayi238]

I read Stephanie Block’s info on the site you listed, but following that article was a comment by Lynn Johnal saying JF was OK.
Why so many differing opinions? I don’t have a peacefulness re: JF program.

There are numerous parishes here in the New Orleans archdiocesan area that are having the JustFaith workshops.

I have contacted our local Catholic paper asking them to clear the air about Jezreel and have gotten no response.

I have e-mailed the archdiocese and they said to take it up with their CCHD director–that’s one of the agencies sponsoring JF.

I myself will no longer fund CCHD, CRS and Catholic Charities.

How do I ever get the Archdiocese here to explain why and how they can support and promote this program?

 

[Righteousness]

I read Stephanie Block’s info on the site you listed, but following that article was a comment by Lynn Johnal saying JF was OK.
Why so many differing opinions? I don’t have a peacefulness re: JF program.

There are numerous parishes here in the New Orleans archdiocesan area that are having the JustFaith workshops.

I have contacted our local Catholic paper asking them to clear the air about Jezreel and have gotten no response.

I have e-mailed the archdiocese and they said to take it up with their CCHD director–that’s one of the agencies sponsoring JF.

I myself will no longer fund CCHD, CRS and Catholic Charities.

How do I ever get the Archdiocese here to explain why and how they can support and promote this program?

I know what you mean yayi238!

Your bishop really isn’t Catholic. I wonder if any of the priests he has ordained are really priests. What about all those baptisms? If we could only go back to the old days when all we had to do was pray, pay and obey.

None of this communist/socialist stuff where we have to “take care/help” of the poor. It’s their own fault that they are poor. Why should I help them?

 

[yayi238]

To “Righteousness”:

Well, I think Greg Aymond is sincerely Catholic (by his fruits I will know) but I must admit I had some doubts about Alfred Hughes at times-- i.e. protecting priests who sexually abused children; having parishioners physically removed from churches and then arrested; trying to give FEMA money slated to rebuild N.O. churches after Katrina to churches outside of N.O.

Yeah, some of that sounds a bit un-Catholic.
Have you heard of ACORN? The USCCB didn’t exactly do a great job donating there.
A roman collar or a Bishop’s miter doesn’t excuse all illegal or immoral behavior–and the word “Catholic” in an agency doesn’t guarantee that it is Catholic. I’m saying we all need to be aware and maybe that is too much for you and you prefer what you describe as “pray, pay and obey”.

I am not adverse to helping the poor–as a matter of fact I give to the Poor box and I donate groceries to stock the pantry from which the needy can get food items. We are sending money to Africa to help a seminarian who we became acquainted with while he was in the U.S. studying. These are only some of the ways we try to do our part in helping others.
When my son died ,at age 26, in lieu of flowers we requested donations to Catholic Charities–now I am left wondering if any of the donations in his name were used to fund abortions or to register illegal voters.

I am adverse to helping agencies which ride their political agendas on the backs of the poor. And I also believe I have a moral responsibility to distinguish between those that are legitimate and those that are not–not just pray and pay–I have a responsibility to be a good steward–you’ve no doubt heard that before–it’s preached in Catholic churches–and the bible says I shouldn’t cast pearls before swine.
So, if my questioning upsets you that is your problem.
You may donate to whatever you want and I hope you will allow me to do the same.