Social Justice to the exlcusion of doctrine

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Riley259 said:
Doctrine and the mission of the Church are not mutually exclusive. If you want to just go because of social issues alone then you might as well become a Unitarian Universalist. This “religion” is based solely on their own idea of a liberal social justice.
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And if you want hellfire and brimstone you can go to a Baptist church.

I prefer seeing Jesus in the eyes of the poor and persicuted to hearing about Old Testiment , angry God.

Kim
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
Actually, both “liberals” and “conservatives” use both, it is not that cut and dry.

Also, in relation to the abortion, Sunday Obligations, contraception, and hell and damnation not getting their “fair share”, it comes down (IMO) to an fear vs self determination approach.

The examples you mentioned come from a theological approach to “scare people straight” for motivation. While it can motivate for a while, it can also be self-defeating as time goes on as it is has strong de-motivating undertones as the fear sets into people’s psyche.

The Social Justice theology is popular with a self-determination approach. It adds a second dimension to people’s faith by having them live it in a positive way to turn what is seen as a negative in life into a positive. Both the helper and the helpee both receive an uplift from these actions. Instead of looking at the world as a fearful place, it makes the world a better place in small ways, which accumulate quickly.
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Sterotyping, conservatives are media represented as heartless. Yet liberals have no corner on virtue either, as both have heart and brain, but can favor one over the other.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit still include fear of the Lord for a reason. It is the suppresion of this gift, as well as that of the others, that can lead to troouble.

Christ’s peace.
 
po18guy said:
Sterotyping, conservatives are media represented as heartless. Yet liberals have no corner on virtue either, as both have heart and brain, but can favor one over the other.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit still include fear of the Lord for a reason. It is the suppresion of this gift, as well as that of the others, that can lead to troouble.

Christ’s peace.
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Then that is just the media, which is neither “liberal” or “conservative”. I never said one side has a monopoly on values/virtues. You can enjoy rubrics and also have a heart to help out outside of mass times. They are not mutually exclusive. Often, in order to keep going outside of mass you need mass to recharge.
 
Genesis315 said:
No, but we should also not do the opposite and neglect the worship of God. There’s absolutely no reason why we cannot do both. It takes absolutely no additional resources to follow the rubrics and pray the words of the liturgy as they are written. Nor does it take additional resources to treat the liturgy with reverence and solemnity due to the Holiest Sacrifice.

People should serve God and neighbor, and neglect neither.
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Amen! 👍
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
Then that is just the media, which is neither “liberal” or “conservative”. I never said one side has a monopoly on values/virtues. You can enjoy rubrics and also have a heart to help out outside of mass times. They are not mutually exclusive. Often, in order to keep going outside of mass you need mass to recharge.
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Absolutely! Highly recommended, and obligatory. We must strive to maintain discipline and obedience to Christ in all aspects of our lives. One area cannot “make up” for failure in another. But, the media (scribes) is overwhelmingly liberal. Ask John Stossel (Libertarian) or Bernard Goldberg (Liberal)-both agree. The press is free in America, not balanced.
 
TMC said:
As others have commented, “Social Justice to the exclusion of doctrine” is an oxymoron. Its like saying Love of God to the exclusion of doctrine or Faith to the exclusion of doctrine. Social Justice is doctrine.

I, too, am attracted to those parishes. Certainly I don’t care if a parish screws up the liturgy, and I don’t think that comes even close to Social Justice in importance. The Scribes and Pharisees were very good at enforcing their form of worship, but they did not care for the poor. Should we do the same?
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Agreed 100% with this change:

Social Justice is DOCTRINE. Jesus was a countercultural radical. He was a radical in his day and as some believe (e.g. Crossan) he would no doubt be given the short end of the stick by the Church today given his radical perspective.

Do you really think that Jesus would care if we deviated from the “rubrics” or didn’t “pray the words as written”? Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

However, the choir has got to be able sing…👍
 
The post about brains versus feelings was close, but not quite the real problem. The problem is that Satan is actually quite good at his job. His best trick is to polarize people into opposing errors.

It is not brains on the one side and feelings on the other. It is a problem of Truth on one side and Compassion on the other. They are not and cannot genuinely be opposed to one another. But the devil sure likes to make them SEEM so.

Today there are far too many catholics who rightly value compassion for their fellow man, but fail to see that it is not compassionate to allow our fellow man to destroy himself with sin in either ignorance or self-delusion.

There are also too many catholics who rightly value truth, but appropriate it as a club to beat others with instead of accepting it as the narrow path that leads to salvation from our own sinful failings.

The real faithful catholics are those who BOTH humbly seek and submit to the truth of God’s revelation about himself and what he created us to be AND recognize that we grow closer to God by loving and giving to one another. Skip either element and you are off the narrow path and into the ditch.

Thus, I think the thread title is misleading. Social Justice is no longer Social Justice when its adherents abandon doctrine. At that point it becomes just leftist politics.
 
manualman said:
Thus, I think the thread title is misleading. Social Justice is no longer Social Justice when its adherents abandon doctrine. At that point it becomes just leftist politics.
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So is Social Justice with Doctrine really just doctrinal leftist politics? This apparently leaves all those “rightists” out in the cold…
 
manualman said:
The post about brains versus feelings was close, but not quite the real problem. The problem is that Satan is actually quite good at his job. His best trick is to polarize people into opposing errors.
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I am reminded of James 2 in your post.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This thread is based on a false dichotomy. Justice can not exist apart from the truth of God. Micah 6 tells us that God requires three things of us.

Practice justice.

Show mercy.

Walk humbly with God.
 
pnewton said:
I am reminded of James 2 in your post.
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
This thread is based on a false dichotomy. Justice can not exist apart from the truth of God. Micah 6 tells us that God requires three things of us. Practice justice. Show mercy.
Walk humbly with God.
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I am struck by the idea that Justice is God’s alone. Social justice, on the other hand, is man’s and, while similar, remains apart from God’s perfect will.

Christ’s peace be always with you.
 
Peregrino said:
So is Social Justice with Doctrine really just doctrinal leftist politics? This apparently leaves all those “rightists” out in the cold…
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Not at all. If you properly understand christian doctrine, much of leftist politics will be utterly repulsive to you. Similarly, if you genuinely love your neighbor as yourself, much of rightist politics will be abhorrent to you.

This is why catholics should neither be left wing, nor right wing. Just catholic. The trouble comes when it is time to vote and the choices end up being between bad and worse. In primaries, I generally refuse to vote for anybody with any positions I find repulsive and as a result, my primary vote usually goes to a guy nobody has ever heard of. In general elections, I usually concede that it is better to vote for bad than worse. Thus, I more vote AGAINST the other candidate rather than FOR the one I punch.

IMO the best way to determine who to vote for is to rank the seriousness of the issues at hand and vote for the one with the decent position on the most crucial issues. In my lifetime, this unfortunately means that economic social justice issues get trumped by more fundamentla human rights every time. This just ends up meaning I need to tackle the social justice problems personally and as a member of my church, rather than as a voter.

Not to hijack the thread totally, but this really is the tragedy of our day. If catholics had clarity of prioritizing moral issues in voting, we’d easily be THE swing group that would decide every election. In no time flat we’d abolish abortion, ban human body part farming (stem cell experiments), defund the abortion and contraceptive imperialists in the UN and then we could move on to the trickier issues of how to correct the economic injustices in our society while maintaining healthy free enterprise. Instead, we can’t seem to agree on priorities, cancel out each others vote and have no block influence on elections at all. Sad.
 
Genesis315 said:
You can’t separate love from truth. Anyway Catholic teaching on social justice IS part of the doctrine of the Church. .
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What would you think of a respected theologan who recently( a few years ago) wrote that “Catholic social teaching is not part of core dogma”?

Do you understand why he would say that?
 
Trader said:
What would you think of a respected theologan who recently( a few years ago) wrote that “Catholic social teaching is not part of core dogma”?

Do you understand why he would say that?
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He has forgotten the faith of his fathers, if that quote is indeed correct, it is denying the unity of Christ and our charity.

I hope he never said anything like that, it would denying Christ as the origin and the recipient of our love for others. This might make us feel good as we don’t have to represent the faith but it denies the truth of Christ.

Unless that which we do for others is without God then it is ok to separate it from dogma, and all become atheists. This is the result of separating the truth of God from Social Justice as we make the work our own doing instead of God working through us. We become people who do it for ourselves, instead of with God.

God Bless
Scylla
 
scylla said:
He has forgotten the faith of his fathers, if that quote is indeed correct, it is denying the unity of Christ and our charity.

I hope he never said anything like that, it would denying Christ as the origin and the recipient of our love for others. This might make us feel good as we don’t have to represent the faith but it denies the truth of Christ.

Unless that which we do for others is without God then it is ok to separate it from dogma, and all become atheists. This is the result of separating the truth of God from Social Justice as we make the work our own doing instead of God working through us. We become people who do it for ourselves, instead of with God.

God Bless
Scylla
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That statement appeared in a footnote of a publication of the Holy Office. Its author was Josef Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

The reason for the distinction is that Catholic Social teaching changes with time and culture, while dogma does not. Take for instance the teaching, “You shall not commit adultery.” That comes from God himself through natural law that preceeds its presence in God’s revealed truth of Scripture and Tradition.

How we deal with that truth across different cultures and times is different. Do we support the death penalty for adulterers as the Hebrews did and some Islamic societies still do today? Do missionaries in cultures with plural marriage or no-fault divorce have to deal with those differences in proclaiming the Gospel? Of course they do.

Just over 100 years ago the Church taught that government had the right and sometimes the duty to use capital punishment to proctect society. While that is still true, circumstances have changed so that capital punishment is almost never supported by the church today. Modern societies can protect themselves from criminals with means less drastic than execution.

Because Catholic Social Teaching is not dogma, people of good will can argue about issues in this part of the forum in a way we could not argue about defined doctrine.
 
I think taken out of context, yes that quote can be understood to deny Catholic belief.

If understood to mean that we separate the truth and message of Christ from social teaching then yes that is wrong.

I believe it is a misrepresentation of the quote to state in the beginning that it is separating truth from charity. You cannot separate truth from Charity.

We can certainly discuss the application of Charity, and I am all for that as long as we do not confuse that as a changing of truth.
Since the application of Charity is not dogma which you seem to be saying then I would agree 100% with the quote, but it was presented initially as a separation of truth and charity. That is wrong.

We can certainly bring up a discussion of application of charity, as you said in the example of the death penalty. I can execute a person in the spirit of charity as the Christian thing to do in some circumstances is to protect the innocent, but that is a very rare circumstance and these days rarely is necessary. That can make for a great discussion, yet that would not deny the truth for instance that everyone should be evangelized.

God Bless
Scylla
 
You can’t separate love from truth. Anyway Catholic teaching on social justice IS part of the doctrine of the Church. .

I used Cardinal Ratzinger’s quote for a post containing the two sentences above.

The first is true. The second is not.

I have seen a lot of posts in the Social Justice topics that misuse church teaching from one time and place and attempt to apply it to another situation as if it was doctrine.

Just because you are passionate about issues of different aspects of social justice, it does not mean that church doctrine support you on labor unions, minimum wage, tax structures, public schools, public housing, health insurance, or immigration policy. Very seldom(if ever) does doctrine get down to that level of detail. It is left to us to use all our natural and supernatural resources to do the right thing, and that does vary according to time and culture and even individual differences.
 
I believe we are talking past each other. The poster who you are responding to probably meant the following…

I agree that application of social justice can change, what I am disagreeing with is the common problem that people mix up the separation of application and the denial of the truth of Christ when representing Christ’s Church.

The application of social justice can certainly change and is not dogma. Sure we can change how we apply social justice we do this all the time depending on circumstances. I agree that is not dogma.

The witness of Christ and truth of the gospel never changes and must be united in our expression of Social Justice. I must do the actions for Christ not just as a good action from one person to another. Just because I convince someone to not have an abortion doesn’t mean that I don’t also invite them to come back to the Catholic Church and go to confession.

God Bless
Scylla
 
I think we are in total agreement.

I also think that while our current Pope is a brilliant theologian, his audience is frequently not able to keep up with him intelectually. Remember the controversy over statements on Muslims and the nature of the Catholic Church?
 
Thank you for the discussion and the charitable posts. I agree with you.

God Bless
Scylla
 
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