Social vs. Theological Reasons for Participating in Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter Herjulia
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

Herjulia

Guest
Hello, I’m new.

I’m middle aged, and have a lot of years under my belt exploring spirituality through practice, through reading, through studying religions, both Christian and non-Christian.

I was baptized and raised by a devout Catholic father and a mother who was disillusioned and explored a lot. I did not go to Catholic school, but regularly attended Mass, CCD, and my parents took an active role in teaching Catholic doctrine and later Catholic Charismatic teachings.

I find myself in this position where I know that I cannot honestly assent to the Nicene Creed. I believe in the unconditional love of God, but I don’t really experience God according to the definitions provided by the Church. My research through the years as well as the example of my father and his family give me tremendous respect for the disciplines of traditional Catholicism. I embrace the cardinal virtues, and I frequently pray to be more in line with them, and often use the seven deadly sins to assess my own behavior, praying for insight and repentance and growth.

Reading various threads here, I know that I am a long way from being what anyone would consider a “good” Catholic. My husband is a Filipino, he’s personally agnostic, but his extended family really wants us all to go to Church. I feel this is more of a cultural/social thing.

I could feel comfortable going to Mass, except that I have a huge amount of distrust in the leadership and in the community, based on my half a century of personal experience. At the same time, I recognize a need to belong to a community of some sort.

I’ve had people repeatedly recommend I go to RCIA, but when I do a review of the literature and topics, I don’t think any of this is new information to me. I’m not in any way unfamiliar with what the Catholic Church teaches.

Is there some way to be part of the community, an “honorary Catholic” if you will, where I can be comfortable with my current place, can share with Catholics, but not be ostracized from within? Every year or two I try to get involved again, but usually run into others who either first want me to begin giving money or else immediately what me to conform to their ideas about what I ought to be.

Thanks for listening.
 
if you don’t honestly agree with the stuff in the Nicene Creed, you are not a practicing Catholic.

If you want to be part of any faith community as a non-practitioner of that faith, you will have to make your peace with the fact that the community is joining together primarily on the basis of shared belief, and if you make clear that you don’t share a particular belief, some people may naturally try to change your mind on that. I’m not sure from your statement if the pressure you are referring to comes from your own family or from other people in the community. If it’s other people in the community, you could nicely tell them in some way that it is not their business. However, if it’s your own family that you see and/or live with on a daily basis, it’s much harder to just put them off, so you will have to work out your own way to deal with them.

With respect to giving money: The community that you seem to want to enjoy, does not operate in a cost-free vacuum. It takes money to maintain a church and community and it’s reasonable to expect those who reap the benefits to contribute as well. If you don’t feel comfortable giving at least some money, then unless you are truly too poor, I don’t think you should be in there “free riding” on everybody else’s donations just because you enjoy some social aspect of the community but don’t want to give any money to the church.
 
Why do you disagree with the creed? We in Catholicism don’t necessarily have to “feel” anything to be Catholic
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I’m not sure from your statement if the pressure you are referring to comes from your own family or from other people in the community. If it’s other people in the community, you could nicely tell them in some way that it is not their business. However, if it’s your own family that you see and/or live with on a daily basis, it’s much harder to just put them off, so you will have to work out your own way to deal with them.
Click to expand...
I’m not honestly sure if I can tease out the difference between the community and my family, as the feelings are pretty intense and I’m sure I project some of what my family says/does onto others who are Catholic.

As far as the money, I realize there’s a pretty endless need for financial support, and I may well be oversensitive. I just think when you are introduced as a new person/guest, the first thing should not be to ask for money. If they don’t know who I am, then that’s not a problem because they may naturally assume I’m a member of their parish.
 
I can accept the creed as “one way” of describing God, but not as “the way” of describing God.

I believe God transcends gender.

I don’t believe God is an outside agent acting on entirely separate created entities. I believe we are manifestations of the Divine, almost like cells in a body. We have a function, we receive direction from the Divine source, and as we send back our impressions, feelings, etc. We (and all of creation) are, collectively, god.

I believe Jesus existed, but I think how the earliest Christians experienced that may not be entirely reflected in what came out of councils some 400 years later. A century is a long time in a society that is mostly reliant on oral tradition, and the Roman empire was, after all, a melting pot. The winners always get to write history.
 
I dont think ive ever heard someone express a rejection of the Nicene Creed before. But hey, its good you can be honest about it. Its not good to reject it, according to our faith, however.

If you are expecting to be perfect to be a good Catholic, well that depends on what you mean by perfect. We all need to frequent Reconciliation, i think.

I think you do participate in Mass for much more than social reasons, dont you agree? If you pray, and recognize you need God, then thats what will bring you into His perfection. Never give up!

As for God’s unconditional love, do you see Jesus as having condotions on His love? He forgave His persecutors while on the cross!
 
Well, while i get your point, if we didnt feel anything, we would likely need to be buried as opposed to Baptized. 🙂
 
Herjulia said:
I can accept the creed as “one way” of describing God, but not as “the way” of describing God.

I believe God transcends gender.

I don’t believe God is an outside agent acting on entirely separate created entities. I believe we are manifestations of the Divine, almost like cells in a body. We have a function, we receive direction from the Divine source, and as we send back our impressions, feelings, etc. We (and all of creation) are, collectively, god.

I believe Jesus existed, but I think how the earliest Christians experienced that may not be entirely reflected in what came out of councils some 400 years later. A century is a long time in a society that is mostly reliant on oral tradition, and the Roman empire was, after all, a melting pot. The winners always get to write history.
Click to expand...
Hmmm… so you dont necessarily think the creed is wrong?

You think its wrong of Jesus to refer to God as Father? You think the Word incarnate happened to be male, but He could have been conceived female by equal chance?

I think your concept of God is quasi Budhist, no?
 
Last edited:
Catholics too believe God transcends gender, Scripture describes Him with both male and female attributes. He is the source of everything after all. But, He reveals Himself with the male pronoun.

The only real thing that seems to be a rejection is you seem rather pantheistic. Catholics believe God is in everything but is not everything. Meanwhile, you seem to think He is everything, like the screen you’re looking at.
 
I don’t see how you arrived at this interpretation of what I said.

“Meanwhile, you seem to think He is everything, like the screen you’re looking at.”

Quasi-buddhist? I’ve been strongly influenced by Buddhism, Stoicism, and Taoism. I am less about religious identity and more about spiritual ethics, honoring the ability given to me to reason things out, and having a practical way of living it out.
 
You said the whole of creation is God, which is a form of pantheism.

In Catholicism we also reason out our morals via natural law philosophy.
 
your response sounds more like you read what I said, categorized it as pantheism, and assumed I believed inanimate objects have consciousness…which is really not where I was going, personally. In my own mind, I’m open to the ways in which biological units interact and affect each other as being a manifestation of the Divine. a computer screen is an indirect manifestation, as a product of human thought/ingenuity/efforts, but I don’t think of it as having a direct back and forth communication with the spirit that moves in all things.

But what the heck, check this link…I tried copying it without the hyperlink but it looks like the site will format it as clickable regardless (you don’t know me from Adam, so )…Panpsychism: The idea that everything from spoons to stones are conscious is gaining academic credibility — Quartz
 
No, I did not say “conscious”.

But, now what you are saying sounds almost like the idea of forms, which is easily adapted to a Catholic framework.

Panpsychism is also acceptable to believe as a Catholic.
 
We are called, not to a “personal” relationship with Christ, but a corporate relationship - being members - parts - of His mystical Body. This calls for the seeming contradiction of suppressing our wills while simultaneously conforming our wills to God’s.

It is apparent that you are attracted both to the mystical and corporate aspects, which is good, as we must desire and have both. Serious doubts are your obstacle. Belief is the antidote to doubt - but how to come to the point of belief?

If you study Christianity; if you find it attractive; if you have a strong or increasing interest, a building desire, even a longing, there is but one solution which stands out above the rest:

Go and spend time with the Lord Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Catholics (should) firmly and unmistakably recognize and believe in our Lord’s presence in the Eucharist. 2,000 years ago, the seekers and faithful sought Him and followed Him.

I strongly urge you to call your local parish and find out when they offer adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Then, find the time and simply go and sit in His presence. You will most likely be incredulous for a time. But, take it on the faith of those around you that He is there.

Desire to know, with an open heart, that what the faith teaches is true. Expose your heart’s innermost desire and ask God to reveal confirmation of that which you seek. Then, be as patient with Him as He has been with you. When you receive spiritual awareness or confirmation of His Presence, you will be changed.

Thereafter, granting assent to the beliefs of the Church will become as natural as breathing.
 
@Herjulia

Welcome to the forum.

What you are asking really depends on the ministries & culture within any given parish. I’m not sure you’ll be able to find a uniform answer. As a pantheist, your ideas differ from Catholicism (and the Abrahamic God in general) by a great deal. Building deep-level relationships in the parish will probably be difficult since the Catholic faith is what brings those groups together (such as, for example, to how an art convention is going to bring people together based on a mutual interest in art).

So how well you can pull this off is just going to depend on the individual people you meet. Of course, anybody is welcome to attend the celebration of the Mass.

Peace.
 
Last edited:
@Herjulia

First, I would recommend you get a subscription to FORMED.org from your Church (if they have it) or buy one online for $9.99 per month.

Start by watching the Symbolon series.

Question: what do you disagree with in the Creed?
 
Last edited:
Good morning. I appreciate the answers and information you are all providing.

I don’t literally believe in the creed. I think the Trinity is one way of seeing God.

And a claim that anyone rose from the dead, or was born of a virgin should have substantial reasons to back it up. The faith of others is not enough to evoke faith in me. Otherwise there would be no way to choose between faiths. In fact, that is the heart of my dilemma: working in hospitals most of my life, I’m surrounded by people from many ethnicities and faiths, facing the most personal crises of their lives. I have found that Muslims, and Jews, and Christians, and Sikhs, and Buddhists, and Wiccans, and atheists, etc…every group has the same ratio of intelligent vs stupid, ethical vs base, etc. When you are talking about miracles or mysticism, it’s very personal, and there isn’t really away of proving one is more true than the others.

Which is why I’m thinking of coming back to Catholicism, because it’s where my roots and my family are. In a sense, because it’s no worse than my other options.
 
May I suggest the following two books for you? They are by Dr Brant Pitre:


https://www.amazon.com/Case-Jesus-Biblical-Historical-Evidence/dp/0770435483

Dr Pitre once suffered from a lack of faith due to scientific knowledge and knowledge of other religions. He even started to doubt the divinity of Christ.

It wasn’t until he deeply study Judaism that he realized that the Gospels and New Testament are FILLED with obvious language to Jews regarding who Christ is.

So he wrote his books deliberately so people who have the same doubts as you can see the reasons.

I pray you buy these and I pray they help.

God Bless
 
This book looks interesting. I was trying to get a little more information about it. Can you tell me if there were Jewish scholars who weighed in on his interpretation of their faith?
 
Herjulia said:
This book looks interesting. I was trying to get a little more information about it. Can you tell me if there were Jewish scholars who weighed in on his interpretation of their faith?
Click to expand...
Some of his professors were Jewish.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top