Socialism and Catholicism

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StudentMI said:
From the man himself:
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“ an intolerant dogmatism that views the spirit as produced by matter and morals as produced by circumstances. According to its dictates, morals should be defined and practiced on the basis of society’s purposes, and everything is moral that helps to usher in the final state of happiness. This dogmatism completely subverts the values that built Europe. It also breaks with the entire moral tradition of humankind by rejecting the existence of values independent of the goals of material progress. Depending on circumstance, anything can become legitimate and even necessary; anything can become moral in the new sense of the term. Even humankind itself can be treated as an instrument, since the individual does not matter, only the future, the cruel deity adjudicating over one and all.”

Sounds like the Bernie campaign
 
Already we see government regulations increasing and becoming more and more intrusive on Catholic universities. The local Roman Catholic college regularly congratulates its alumni and alumnae who have entered into SS marriages. In the real world, at least according to the statistics i have seen, there is not too much difference between what American Roman Catholics believe and practice and what the general American public believe on issues such as contraception, abortion and SS marriage. Two prominent Roman Catholic politicians, both of whom have been granted audiences with the Holy Father, the Pope, – they are both in favor of the legalization of late term abortion as the right of a woman. Notice that in late term abortion, it is not a fetus or an embryo, it is a fully developed child who can live on his own, if the doctor allowed it.
IOW, it is not just Bernie Sanders who is talking about imposing Catholic teaching on everyone. in some cases, it is the Roman Catholics themselves who are against the Catholic teaching being imposed.
 
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StudentMI said:
Bernie is also for abortion up to birth. Terrible.
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Yes it is. But AFAIK, ALL the Democratic presidential candidates, with the exception of Tulsi, are in favor of keeping late term abortion legal. There was a Roman Catholic priest, who was also a Democratic Congressman, and he was in favor of the legalization of abortion. His way out was to say that he personally was against all abortions, but he did not think that making abortions illegal was the way to go.
 
Fr. Drinan. Who was the impetus for JPII’s ban on priests holding elective office. Fr. Drinan obediently resigned his congressional office. And was replaced by Barney Frank.

Ah, Massachusetts.
 
You make a good point. There are significant differences between Protestantism and Catholic social justice. A great deal of Protestantism in America bleeds into the Catholic culture here as well. Becomes indistinguishable. Until you go and read the doctrine itself and recognise it is very DISTINGUISHABLE.
You mention the first Christian community and how they chose to live. There is no doubt that Capitalism is antithetical to a great deal of Catholic thought and ethic. David Bentley Hart made this pretty clear a few years ago. He reasoned that Capitalism is virtually synonymous with Secularism, consumerism, and relativism. I would argue it is difficult to support the engine of these three " isms" , then try and make the case for select inconsistent behavior. That somehow identify the goats and sheep. I say you cannot hide from ones participation and culpability this way. You support Capitalism, you are responsible for the good and bad.
While Capitalism has its positives, it is not a tenant of faith.
The great evil of socialism derives from it’s opposition to private property. It seeks to hold property and means of production collectively. This has led to authoritarianism and other problems involving liberty. Unfortunately, Saint Peter is no longer around to determine to each according to needs.
( Bernie by the way seeks higher taxes on the more affluent, not state ownership of the means of production.).
Catholic social theory adopts neither of these two theories. It’s features include a qualified private ownership, obligations( duties) as well as rights, and a social structure that promotes our best ideals.
 
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NoelFitz said:
Condemnations of Socialism from those in the US often seem to Europeans to be based on politics, not religion.
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The Church was very reluctant to endorse capitalism for that reason, and it was only after there were safety net programs put into place by many countries whereas there was a conditional approval of it. One problem with many of those who oppose socialism is that they equate it with Soviet/Chines-style Communism and totalitarianism.

Basically, between capitalism and socialism, Jesus very much was the side of the latter, thus expecting both the individual and the society in general to help with the impoverished and with widows per the Torah mandate. The “render unto Caesar…” is all too often misinterpreted by opponents to this, whereas Jesus in reality is essentially saying “It’s only money-- pay your taxes”. There is no indication whatsoever that Jesus opposed tithing, which went to the Temple priests to be allocated in part to help the poor.

A compassionate people and country will help the disenfranchised, which was and is essentially the base from which socialism actually came from, which was a far cry from the totalitarian regimes that came out of Marxism.
 
Maximus1 said:
Catholic social theory adopts neither of these two theories. It’s features include a qualified private ownership, obligations( duties) as well as rights, and a social structure that promotes our best ideals.
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Indeed. Distributism is one attempt at this system, and while some would criticize it as not having enough concrete proposals I would say that’s a strength as it can respond to changing circumstances more readily. It’s a principle as far as I see it. I’m reading a book by John Medaille right now that has plenty of proposals however.
 
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AlNg said:
So it would be an immoral act for a Roman Catholic to vote for a socialist such as Bernie Sanders who calls himself a democratic socialist? Actually, from what I have read, Mr. Sanders has held some very extreme socialist views in the past.
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It would not necessarily be an immoral act to vote for Bernie Sanders because of the label he takes for himself - “Democratic Socialist”. Under the strict definition of socialism - where the government controls the means of production - that ideology has been condemned by the Church. But today Bernie Sanders has not been campaigning on such an ideology. His label is inaccurate. He is not a socialist in the strict sense, and that is the only sense in which the Church condemns socialism. The Church does not condemn Social Security as it is practiced in the US, even though many people called it Socialism when it was passed. The Catechism clearly recognizes the need for reasonable regulation of the marketplace, even though many hard line capitalists call any government regulation “Socialism.” The Church also condemns the practice of capitalism when it promotes individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. So we should be careful in making judgments made only with poorly-fitting labels.
 
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Maximus1 said:
Catholic social theory adopts neither of these two theories. It’s features include a qualified private ownership, obligations( duties) as well as rights, and a social structure that promotes our best ideals.
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I agree with your post in the most part. I will say that the Church does also hold that free enterprise is demanded by social hustice,.
 
StudentMI said:
Yes socialism is wrong morally. It has been condemned numerous times in numerous encyclicals.
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And there have been popes who wrote that monarchy is the ultimate form of government. What’s often wrong is how people define ‘socialism’. It can’t be morally wrong because the Twelve Apostles lived in a socialist commune.

Remember that ‘democratic socialism’ is not socialism. Those folks who call themselves democratic socialists are really closer to favoring social democracy.
 
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Oh I know. I believe I pointed out the democratic socialism is social democracy thing above but that may have been in a different thread. Regardless, the Church condemned socialism on multiple occasions.
 
Harry,
does the state have the right to defend itself from invasion?
AlNg said:
The only role for the state is to ensure that economic exchanges are just and that respect for the dignity of each individual as a distinctly human moral agent is maintained.
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Maximus1 said:
( Bernie by the way seeks higher taxes on the more affluent, not state ownership of the means of production.).
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“According to CNN, the Liberty Union Party called for “nationalization of the energy industry, public ownership of banks, telephone, electric, and drug companies and of the major means of production such as factories and capital, as well as other proposals such as a 100% income tax on the highest income earners in America.” Sanders ran for governor of Vermont and US Senate on the Liberty Union Party ticket four times between 1972 and 1976, and was briefly the party’s chairman.”

www.jacobinmag.com

Unlike Some People, Bernie Hasn’t “Evolved”

In the seventies, Bernie Sanders called for nationalizing major industries, a stance the media want to frame as a gaffe. But it only shows how consistent he’s been in fighting predatory elites — in stark contrast to the other Democratic candidates.
www.jacobinmag.com www.jacobinmag.com
 
AlNg said:
So it would be an immoral act for a Roman Catholic to vote for a socialist such as Bernie Sanders who calls himself a democratic socialist? Actually, from what I have read, Mr. Sanders has held some very extreme socialist views in the past.
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In the past did Donald Trump support pro-choice and was a Democrat? Can people, including Kurds, trust him?
 
Do you think the interests taking the position Bernie is a socialist are concerned about an accurate definition? Lol
 
NoelFitz said:
Can people, including Kurds, trust him?
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Can the Kurds trust anyone? And how about the Armenians? Can they trust anyone to keep their promises?
The Kurds want their own country of Kurdistan.
Of course, the Basques want the same.
And the Catalonians.
And many Belgians want to split up their country.
Can the American Indians trust anyone?
Can the Palestinians trust anyone ?
 
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