Socialism and Catholicism

[HarryStotle]

Fortunately, most Americans have a reasonable view of socialism.

Voters: 63% fear socialism means bread lines, secret police, hospital waiting lines - Washington Examiner

Move over coronavirus.Just as scary for a majority of battleground state voters is the looming possibility that the Democrats’ rush to embrace socialism could win in the 2020 election, according to a new survey from the "polling company" and provided to Secrets.Voters fear that the shift from...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[StudentMI]

It must be said aside from all these debates about terminology, democratic socialism and what it means and all that stuff, that the actual experience of twentieth century socialist states – the USSR, China, Cambodia, etc. – was an unmitigated disaster. There is no other word to describe them.

One can argue about to what extent the state should be involved in the economy but socialism itself was a disaster.

 

[EssentialBeing]

One can argue about to what extent the state should be involved in the economy but socialism itself was a disaster.

Yes very true as socialism took more control over capitalism it became severely autocratic.

Extreme Socialism = Communism…

post#429 asks a very interesting question.

How does a government move beyond both capitalism and socialism?

This may be the start of a new direction?

 

[Metis1]

No country today is entirely socialistic, and all countries today have what is called a “mixed economy”, which is a blending of capitalistic and socialistic programs in varying degrees.

BTW, back in the 1800’s, the Church was not willing to endorse capitalism because there were generally no “safety nets” in place at first (“laissez faire capitalism”), thus basically it was just a form of what’s called “social Darwinism”. It was only after the development of safety nets and the emergence of unions that the Vatican finally found conditional acceptance with it.

 

[NoelFitz]

One could do worse than reading the great Encyclicals. I’m not saying that flippantly, I mean it. There are many great insights in them.

Thanks for this reminder.
I am thinking of rereading Rerum Novarum, Quadragesimo Anno and Centesimus Annus.

I am also trying to read more of the writings of the Pope, at present Misericordia et Misera.

These are difficult times for all of us, so let us support and pray for each other.
It is noteworthy that governments now are stepping in to support society. The common good and fellowship trump individualism, the market and greed.

 

[StudentMI]

I am thinking of rereading Rerum Novarum, Quadragesimo Anno and Centesimus Annus.

I gotta reread the latter two myself.

 

[GKMotley]

Rerum Novarum was the subject of my parish’s first men’s discussion group, a couple of months ago.

Said group now in abeyance.

 

[AlNg]

And I’m Anglican.

I was confused a bit. The title of the thread was Socialism and Catholicism. Would the discussion be different if the thread were titled: Socialism and Anglicanism? We see the past statements of the Catholic Church on Socialism and Communism. How were these statements received in the Anglican community.? Does the Anglican community simply ignore them or do they believe that they may be relevant somehow to the teaching of your church?

 

[StudentMI]

One must remember that the index of prohibited books no longer has the status of law. It is a moral guide but you don’t incur the guilt of mortal sin for reading a book on it. I would assume the same goes for whether it is licit to read a book containing communist doctrine.

 

[GKMotley]

You raise pertinent points and questions.

I was aware of the Cardinal Mindszenty Foundation, back when I was in college, and it was barely 6-7 years old.

And I’m Anglican. Occasionally I point that out.

 

[Maximus1]

Now if we can only get Republicans to understand that.( As well as the Pope does)

 

[NoelFitz]

Let’s get back to the original thrust of this thread, it is about Socialism and Catholicism. Much of it up to now has condemned socialism and state interference with the free market. But now the US seems to have changed completely into socialism, hoping that the state will solve problems.

Do any of you see that what the US is now doing reflects socialist tendencies for the state to control the life of citizens and the economy?

 

[StudentMI]

Do any of you see that what the US is now doing reflects socialist tendencies for the state to control the life of citizens and the economy?

I don’t know if I’d call it socialism. Definitely statism. We’ve come a long way from the people always starting associations that Tocqueville described. Now it is for the government to do this, the government to do that.

 

[Metis1]

Why do some people say they hate “socialism”, and yet we see many of these same people want government involvement when they want help? Should the President just keep his mouth shut and keep the federal government out of dealing with the Covid-19 virus, for example? How about eliminating Social Security and Medicare when one is elderly? Maybe eliminate all funding for the CDC and the NIH?

 

[jofa]

The other issue is that socialism has also unfortunately, for one reason or another, been linked with communism and by extension, atheism.

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[Metis1]

Maybe some should check out “socialism” at Wikipedia and see its many forms, only one of which is Marxism. What my relatives have in Sweden is a far cry from what people had in the former Soviet Union.

BTW, basically all countries today have a mixture of socialistic and capitalistic programs that we call a “mixed economy”. If one doesn’t want any “socialism”, then they should make certain not to collect Social Security, Medicare, or even support our own armed forces as these are all government programs eligible to all.

 

[jofa]

— HIS OWN WORDS !
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[EssentialBeing]

If we accept that Socialism leads to Communism then we should also accept that Democracy leads to Capitalism.

Democracy leads to extreme Capitalism (Economic Purism)
Socialism leads to extreme Communism (Communal Purism)

Point being that both extremes are questionable.

Regarding Catholicism on the view of Capitalism & Socialism the Catholic church has an interesting view

Ref: 2013 Magisterium Of Pope Francis - Apostolic Exhortation

 

[HarryStotle]

Why do some people say they hate “socialism”, and yet we see many of these same people want government involvement when they want help? Should the President just keep his mouth shut and keep the federal government out of dealing with the Covid-19 virus, for example? How about eliminating Social Security and Medicare when one is elderly? Maybe eliminate all funding for the CDC and the NIH?

The times when government may need to get involved is not in the everyday running of lives and business. It is when inordinate events with serious threat to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness occur and decisive unified action is required. That would be called leadership. That does not mean the state ought to control the everyday running of the economy.

The problem with the progressive left is its inability to distinguish between exceptional cases and the normal. The errant thinking is that if a principle applies to the exceptional it must, therefore, apply universally.

Exceptional cases do not make good precedent for rule of law.

 

[HarryStotle]

Maybe some should check out “socialism” at Wikipedia and see its many forms, only one of which is Marxism. What my relatives have in Sweden is a far cry from what people had in the former Soviet Union.

This article relates the experiences of Sweden, a country which was the 4th ranked economy in the world, then fell to the 14th ranked during its 30 year flirtation with socialism. It has since reversed course away from socialist policies.

Socialism Didn’t Work In Sweden, And It Won’t Work In America

The system began crashing after debt-fueled inflation in the ’80s. The ’90s were stained with a massive economic crisis. Banks were on the brink of collapse and, for a brief moment, the Central Bank had 500 percent interest rates to defend the Swedish currency.

Sweden agreed that socialism was not working. In fact, it was a disaster.

“Some of the government’s programs were unsustainable, some of the policies were absurd, and the tax system was perverse,” Norberg said quoting a Swedish Social Democratic finance minister.

The 30-year experiment “was a brief interlude of failure,” Norberg said. To reform and save its economy, Sweden reverted back to its capitalist structure. It reduced public spending by a third, demolished taxes on property and inheritance, and reduced taxes in other areas. Defined benefits were cut and only defined contributions were permitted.

The system became partially privatized with privately-owned accounts. The markets became opened to private providers and private companies who contributed to institutions like healthcare and schools. Sweden also deregulated markets to cause a surge in entrepreneurship.

Swedish healthcare became regionally run and funded by local state tax. Overconsumption had created long hospital lines depriving those with urgent needs of immediate attention. These kinds of inefficiencies of the universal programs caused Sweden to open to more private companies.