Socialism (Theory) and Catholicism

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karirodrigu0 said:
I’m just curious what Christians think of socialist theory- Marx and Engels, French socialist theory, Trotsky and Lenin etc… I’m of course not talking about the failed socialism of Russia, and I’m just wondering if there are any other curious people out there who have read material on socialism and how they contrast that to Christian values.

Thanks!

Karina
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Christian values come primarily from Jesus Christ…ofcourse…and Jesus did not contradict God’s frequent and pervasive injunction on Israel to care for “the poor, the widow, the orphan and the stranger in your land”…(The Hebrew word for this group is “anawim”). Rather, Jesus and the early Church were very concerned with the “anawim”…until the early Church tried a socialist model…then there was some apparent racism and neglect of certain widows…This problem was somewhat resolved in the appointment of Stephen and a group of trustworthy stewards…
So we see that the Christian church at its most fervent and with tiny numbers (maybe a thousand people) could barely keep the wheels from flying off a socialist government model. In today’s massively large populations (USA=330 million) it is absurd to think of enforced equality…unless human freedom is not an issue with you.
 
karirodrigu0 said:
I’m just curious what Christians think of socialist theory- Marx and Engels, French socialist theory, Trotsky and Lenin etc… I’m of course not talking about the failed socialism of Russia, and I’m just wondering if there are any other curious people out there who have read material on socialism and how they contrast that to Christian values.

Thanks!

Karina
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Karina, perhaps you are really looking to understand Leftism…which looks like socialism.

Leftism is a fear based philosophy: it sees a world that is “red in tooth and claw”…and strives for safety via 3 converging paths. Path #1–fear-based…Survival ethics…the world is a dangerous place…I must do whatever it takes to survive, there is no morality higher than my survival. Thus, Lefties think it OK to dictate everything they think is SAFE…from how big a soda you can drink to rubberized play grounds…etc. Health and Saftey concerns explode when Leftism takes over. Path #2-- the fear of the Strong. The Strong will manipulate the Weak unless the Weak band together and control them. Thus, we see a fear of the “big” business, the “big” banks, those with “big” money…etc. Heck, these people fear WALMART. Path #3–Nature ethics…everything evolved randomly and without meaning…therefore all of nature is of equal worth.
All 3 of these paths converge into a modern day push for a wacky environmentalist big government protector of the Weak.
Now, a Christian should not live in fear at all. Christian hold human dignity and freedom as high priorities, not because we fear the “strong”…but because we honor the everlasting value of the human soul.
We pushed for safety nets against manipulations of the strong in business and society…but NOT out of fear. But because it was the right and moral thing to do…we were the force behind unions and human rights…and labor laws and suffergettes and civil rights movements.
Without God’s Law you merely have a fear-filled governmental reaction to society…which leads to a loss of freedom at each "crisis. The Left today will actually make up a crisis to gain more power over others…eg…global warming, the health care crisis in the US, the “obesity” crisis, gun violence crisis…etc.
 
this is NOT unbrideled capitalism, but, its is fictional economic system of borrowing to maintain a government that is corrupt and exists not with taxation, but perpetuated borrowing…
NOT capitalism , but a supestition of borrowing to maintain an existence.

Socialism is, the taking from one group and giving to anther by force… stripping away the freedom of the people to think for themselves, and to act for themselves.

catholism in the educated sense, does NOT condon socialism, only in todays ignorant way of liberalized faith can it be tollerated, more so known as ignorannce and superstition…
 
wanabesaint said:
Socialism is, the taking from one group and giving to anther by force… **stripping away the freedom of the people to think for themselves, and to act for themselves. **
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The latter is a huge generalization based on past attempts by dictators to form a socialist society. I think it is reasonable to think that Stalinist Russia was not really socialist at heart. As for taking something by force to give to others in need, this is not always wrong as far as the common good is concerned.
 
Linux said:
Unbridled capitalism is best defined as a form of capitalism without proper governmental control or governmental safeguards, and in essence, places profits in priority to democracy, rights, and freedoms.

Sound familiar anyone. People not getting proper access to the best health care without worries of debt and being able to afford it, being one of the devils great achievements in America.
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👍👍

Very well said. Opposition to unbridled, unregulated capitalism is not automatically ‘socialism’ – right-wing Catholics are constantly on the wrong side of proper reasoning on this. For starters, in order for a society to function, taxes need to be paid, and taxes are in fact redistribution of money (even if the tax code were flat). Without highways and other roads, provided by the government, even capitalism can’t function – redistribution isn’t automatically ‘socialist’.

There is nothing wrong with proper regulation of capitalism. Under unregulated capitalism we had brutal exploitation of workers under the industrial monopolists (Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan). Anyone care to return to those days?

And yes, proper access to healthcare should be a basic human right for everyone (i.e. independent of employment as well). The Pope in a recent statement said as much. However, we need to be careful in what “the best healthcare” is supposed to entail – if it is getting an expensive MRI for every stupid ****, then count me out.
 
And by the way, Europe isn’t ‘socialist’ in the strict sense of the word – free-market capitalism is alive and well even in democratic countries where ‘socialist’ parties rule.
 
Sweden is one of the most thoroughly socialist countries in the world.

It is also one of the most thoroughly atheist.

They pray “Give us this day our daily bread” not to God but to their godless State.
 
karirodrigu0 said:
I’m just curious what Christians think of socialist theory- Marx and Engels, French socialist theory, Trotsky and Lenin etc… I’m of course not talking about the failed socialism of Russia, and I’m just wondering if there are any other curious people out there who have read material on socialism and how they contrast that to Christian values.

Thanks!

Karina
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Christianity, including Catholic Christianity, is not an economic system, nor is it a form of totalitarianism.
 
Linux said:
I said** not always wrong**, clearly implying that it is not always right either. So i see no need for this remark.
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~ W does not equal ~ R where W = ~ R.

Basic logic. You have made an unwarranted assumption.
 
Linux said:
I said** not always wrong**, clearly implying that it is not always right either. So i see no need for this remark.
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Then you shouldn’t mind my agreeing with you on that particular point.
 
karirodrigu0 said:
I’m just curious what Christians think of socialist theory- Marx and Engels, French socialist theory, Trotsky and Lenin etc… I’m of course not talking about the failed socialism of Russia, and I’m just wondering if there are any other curious people out there who have read material on socialism and how they contrast that to Christian values.

Thanks!

Karina
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You have mentioned the atheistic socialists. I don’t know, are there theistic ones?
I can tell you for sure, comming from the real thing, the main problem of “scientific materialism” was the enemy from within (after they finished all the others).
They needed a “new kind of man”, “the communist type” wich actually was a morally perfect christian but without belief in God. Of course, the majority of the party leaders/members were nothing like that, “the end justify the means”, “we are humans, and we make mistakes” etc were part of the folclore. Our mind doesn’t work like that, “for the good of the community” is a too abstract thing. Sin comes naturally to us, and ruins everything.

How can you get morally perfect people without God? Isn’t this a non-sense?
 
lon

How can you get morally perfect people without God? Isn’t this a non-sense?

👍

Though it can also be hard to get morally perfect people with God! 😉
 
Ion said:
You have mentioned the atheistic socialists. I don’t know, are there theistic ones?
I can tell you for sure, comming from the real thing, the main problem of “scientific materialism” was the enemy from within (after they finished all the others).
They needed a “new kind of man”, “the communist type” wich actually was a morally perfect christian but without belief in God. Of course, the majority of the party leaders/members were nothing like that, “the end justify the means”, “we are humans, and we make mistakes” etc were part of the folclore. Our mind doesn’t work like that, “for the good of the community” is a too abstract thing. Sin comes naturally to us, and ruins everything.

How can you get morally perfect people without God? Isn’t this a non-sense?
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If they’re theistic in the classical sense of the word, they don’t stay that way. Socialism is a very jealous god.
 
We need to remember most what these two hateful and monstrous entities had in common:

** National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazis)**

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
 
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