Socialized healthcare

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Still no discussion of the specific shortcomings of socialized medicine / government-provided healthcare.

To the previous list, I need to list two more problem areas:
  1. childbirth … obstetrical medicine has severe budget problems and availability issues within the UK socialized medicine system.
  2. dental care.
And herewith is the previous list to which the above two items must be added:
  1. rationing by delays
  2. medical staff working 9-5
  3. dirty facilities
  4. doctors spending only a few minutes per patient, requiring multiple visits with long intervals in between [which is why they have so many visits]
  5. patient stacking [refusal to admit patients who are kept waiting in ambulances … sometimes for hours … in an effort to improve statistics]
I’m sure we can add to the list. But advocates of socialized healthcare have not addressed these very serious issues.

[What we need is a comprehensive analysis of these … and additional … issues.]
 
I dunno Al, I can tell ya alot of OB stuff in the UK is done at home using Mid Wives, to open space in hospitals for more serious stuff. I’m not saying that is a bad or good thing, just what it is.

I read that in a link someone had posted a few weeks back.
 
I work at a prison and the care the inmates receive is from government. I wouldn’t take my dog there to receive treatment! Staff always looking at ways to cut cost. Medical facilities looking like 3rd world hospitals. 4 inmates to a room.
I’ll take market based healthcare anyday!!!
 
ken72 said:
I work at a prison and the care the inmates receive is from government. I wouldn’t take my dog there to receive treatment! Staff always looking at ways to cut cost. Medical facilities looking like 3rd world hospitals. 4 inmates to a room.
I’ll take market based healthcare anyday!!!
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That couldn’t possibly be based on the idea that it’s prisoners, who are generally considered less-than-human, who are receiving care there?
 
LCMS_No_More said:
That couldn’t possibly be based on the idea that it’s prisoners, who are generally considered less-than-human, who are receiving care there?
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IN government run systems, the people who depend on the system are usually considered less-than-human. If you don’t believe that, instead of paying your taxes, write a letter to the IRS and explain how you can’t afford taxes this year.
 
vern_humphrey said:
IN government run systems, the people who depend on the system are usually considered less-than-human. If you don’t believe that, instead of paying your taxes, write a letter to the IRS and explain how you can’t afford taxes this year.
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:rotfl:
 
I agree in part with what SoCalRC said some time back; that a substantial portion of healthcare is already socialized. But I go him one better and say that virtually all healthcare, if not all, is “socialized” in some manner.

Medicare policies determine infrastructure investments of hospitals and clinics. It allows the costs to be incorporated into the fees Medicare will pay.

Insurance companies all bargain with healthcare providers, and the bargains are based on what Medicare allows.

Insurance companies are heavily regulated, so one’s ability to have coverage for “X” but not for “Y” is severely limited. In group coverage, variations are virtually nil.

Nobody but the uninsured pay the bogus rate referred to as “Reasonable and Necessary” charges. Medicare pays 60% of that number. Medicaid pays 1/3. Insurance companies usually bargain for charges close to Medicare rate But while Medicaid is marginally profitable, Medicare rate is highly profitable to providers.

But many uninsured don’t pay “Reasonable and Necessary” either. Hill Burton requires that hospitals with ERs serve all comers regardless of ability to pay. So the costs of care to the indigent are written off and the shortfall is passed on to everyone else, including Medicare. For some, the U.S. Bankruptcy Court is the “insurer of last resort”.

So only the solvent uninsured who do not receive Medicare and those who cannot establish relative indigency or cannot file bankruptcy are actually in the “private system”. But because the inflated “Reasonable and Necessary” charges are actually determined indirectly by Medicare, even those people are not really in a private market.

Instinctively, I do not like the idea of a fully socialized healthcare system. But it is not accurate at all to say we presently have a “market based” system. Government determines virtually eveything and is, incidentally, responsible in large part for healthcare’s high cost.
 
Ridgerunner said:
I agree in part with what SoCalRC said some time back; that a substantial portion of healthcare is already socialized. But I go him one better and say that virtually all healthcare, if not all, is “socialized” in some manner.

Medicare policies determine infrastructure investments of hospitals and clinics. It allows the costs to be incorporated into the fees Medicare will pay.

Insurance companies all bargain with healthcare providers, and the bargains are based on what Medicare allows.

Insurance companies are heavily regulated, so one’s ability to have coverage for “X” but not for “Y” is severely limited. In group coverage, variations are virtually nil.

Nobody but the uninsured pay the bogus rate referred to as “Reasonable and Necessary” charges. Medicare pays 60% of that number. Medicaid pays 1/3. Insurance companies usually bargain for charges close to Medicare rate But while Medicaid is marginally profitable, Medicare rate is highly profitable to providers.

But many uninsured don’t pay “Reasonable and Necessary” either. Hill Burton requires that hospitals with ERs serve all comers regardless of ability to pay. So the costs of care to the indigent are written off and the shortfall is passed on to everyone else, including Medicare. For some, the U.S. Bankruptcy Court is the “insurer of last resort”.

So only the solvent uninsured who do not receive Medicare and those who cannot establish relative indigency or cannot file bankruptcy are actually in the “private system”. But because the inflated “Reasonable and Necessary” charges are actually determined indirectly by Medicare, even those people are not really in a private market.

Instinctively, I do not like the idea of a fully socialized healthcare system. But it is not accurate at all to say we presently have a “market based” system. Government determines virtually eveything and is, incidentally, responsible in large part for healthcare’s high cost.
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Exactly!

And having seen what partial socialism has done to us already, we ought not to plunge deeper into that swamp, but turn back and reach high ground – by adopting Medical Savings Accounts.
 
vern_humphrey said:
Exactly!

And having seen what partial socialism has done to us already, we ought not to plunge deeper into that swamp, but turn back and reach high ground – by adopting Medical Savings Accounts.
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What percent of the American people have ever heard of HCFA?
 
MSAs are great if you have enough money to put away after all the current bills are paid. There are many who don’t so we’re back to insurance which everyone should have equal access to, employed, unemployed, disabled, you name it.
 
goofyjim said:
MSAs are great if you have enough money to put away after all the current bills are paid. There are many who don’t so we’re back to insurance which everyone should have equal access to, employed, unemployed, disabled, you name it.
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Ok, so how do you prospose to do this? A* law *making it mandatory that insurance companines provide the product to EVERYONE?
 
goofyjim said:
MSAs are great if you have enough money to put away after all the current bills are paid. There are many who don’t so we’re back to insurance which everyone should have equal access to, employed, unemployed, disabled, you name it.
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What part of the discussion of how you get assistance based on your income tax return did you miss?
 
vern_humphrey said:
What part of the discussion of how you get assistance based on your income tax return did you miss?
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And what part of tax return doesn’t tell the whole picture do you miss? You can’t deduct food and rent off your taxes and you have to have a home and eat. These days that is getting expensive. Maybe to equalize the playing field you should itemize rent just like mortgage. And many poor families need the clothing for the children. Once again this doens’t show up on the tax return. You make it osund so simple but it isn’t. Maybe in your home town but the whole world is not the same as your back neighborhood nor should it be.
 
BamaRider said:
Ok, so how do you prospose to do this? A* law *making it mandatory that insurance companines provide the product to EVERYONE?
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Do you just let people die or be drastically sick without it simply because they can’t afford it? I would think in a civilized society we can provide the same quality care to everyone regardless of their ability to pay. But then maybe we aren’t as civilized as we claim to be.
 
goofyjim said:
And what part of tax return doesn’t tell the whole picture do you miss? You can’t deduct food and rent off your taxes and you have to have a home and eat. These days that is getting expensive. Maybe to equalize the playing field you should itemize rent just like mortgage. And many poor families need the clothing for the children. Once again this doens’t show up on the tax return. You make it osund so simple but it isn’t. Maybe in your home town but the whole world is not the same as your back neighborhood nor should it be.
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What are you trying to say – that not only healthcare, but also food, transportation, clothing and housing should be socialized?

It seems to me that you are the one who wants the whole world to be “the same as in your back neighborhood.”
 
vern_humphrey said:
What are you trying to say – that not only healthcare, but also food, transportation, clothing and housing should be socialized?

It seems to me that you are the one who wants the whole world to be “the same as in your back neighborhood.”
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Vern, have you considered that government should also supply free refrigerators? I mean, like, it is absolutely essential that people’s food supplies need to be preserved properly to prevent spoilage, sickness, disease and pestilence.

The government should take over all factories that produce household appliances … start with refrigerators and then washing machines and, after that, vacuum cleaners. Only vacuum cleaners with HEPA filters would be produced.

And all of the appliances would be free.
 
Al_Masetti said:
Vern, have you considered that government should also supply free refrigerators? I mean, like, it is absolutely essential that people’s food supplies need to be preserved properly to prevent spoilage, sickness, disease and pestilence.

The government should take over all factories that produce household appliances … start with refrigerators and then washing machines and, after that, vacuum cleaners. Only vacuum cleaners with HEPA filters would be produced.

And all of the appliances would be free.
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Don’t stop at free refrigerators!

I need a complete set of pre-'64 Model 70 Winchesters – from .22 Hornet to .458 Magnum. While they’re at it, they should throw in a collection of Model 52 .22 rifles, Model 12 and 21 shotguns, and one each of every gun Colt ever made.

Then I need a free trip to Alaska and one to Africa every year.

I probably ought to have a Lear Jet (paid for by the government, of course) so I can fly to other hunting areas.

It would be nice if the government would fly in a 4X4 to meet me at the airport wherever I go, and take me out to the hunting areas and bring me back.
 
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