Socialized healthcare

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Voluntary giving imparts a blessing to the giver:

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Who cares about the blessing to the giver. It’s practical help for those who can’t help themselves that matters. Relying on voluntary donations to help the poor pay medical bills is not practical, ie it will not offer any reliable level of assistance.
It contributes to a resentment upon those from who the money is stolen and contributes to an entitlement attitude (rather than a meek thankfulness) .
only for those who resent it. Plenty of others don’t, depending on where you live of course. For most it’s more an issue of how much is taken and how effectively it is spent. Of course you can call all tax and spending by government theft if you like, which would include schools, law enforcement for victims, just about anything where the user doesn’t pay.
 
Who cares about the blessing to the giver. It’s practical help for those who can’t help themselves that matters. Relying on voluntary donations to help the poor pay medical bills is not practical, ie it will not offer any reliable level of assistance.

only for those who resent it. Plenty of others don’t, depending on where you live of course. For most it’s more an issue of how much is taken and how effectively it is spent. Of course you can call all tax and spending by government theft if you like, which would include schools, law enforcement for victims, just about anything where the user doesn’t pay.
Are you a practicing Catholic?
 
at the moment I pay 21% inomce tax. I’m not sure how much of that goes to our state funded, public health system, but even if I had private insurance I’d be happy to help fund hip replacements for the elderly, or chemotherapy for the poor. How much are you prepared to pay, and can we guarantee that amount every week? or will it be a one time charity donation that makes little difference in the long term.
You did not answer my question. What percentage of your income do you contribute towards a poor persons health insurance premium at this point it time?
They already get a financial pay-off, they earn well over 100k here. But it’s guess it’s just not enough for the minority who chose the profession primarily for financial rewards. Yes, we should base a whole system on the superficial greed of those who are already paid well.
You are dodging yet another question. Would you go into a profession that the governmentsets salary caps on?
 
yes because they can afford to pay. People lives matter more than others rights to keep 100% of their incomes.
You are asking for communism.
as opposed to not earning enough to obtain it?
Ask rather, why health care is so expensive. The legal system.
Ahh the greed argument. The only reason anybody does anthing is for money. Limit the already high salaries, or simply not keep up with private sector salaries in other countries and doctors will ‘flee’, or give up altogethor and become lawyers.
You have not addressed the abject failure of the plan you support-everywhere it has been tried. Solution, please.
 
If the U.S. gets socialized healthcare, then where will the rest of the world go to get excellent healthcare when the healthcare of their home countries fails them?

Our hospitals do a nice business with folks from other countries coming here for medical treatment.

Those other countries protect the government monopoly by outlawing inexpensive, quick private healthcare. So, without the United States, what country will act as an “escape valve” for folks from other countries?
 
You did not answer my question. What percentage of your income do you contribute towards a poor persons health insurance premium at this point it time?
There is a a public health option in this country that is paid for by the state. How much of the tax I pay that goes towards that I don’t know. If we didn’t have this, then how much would I volunteer? Probably less than what I pay now, which is the point isn’t it. Feel free to criticize me for that, which seems to be the thrust of the reply (“what are *you *doing”) . Many people are not Christian, or don’t feel empathy and won’t give a thing. Others may give on and off. The result is if the poor can’t afford the premiums then tough. Even Republicans, and just about every right-of-centre party in the western world acknowledge if that if we are *going *to have assistance for the poor, then funding it from charity is not a very practical idea.
You are dodging yet another question. Would you go into a profession that the governmentsets salary caps on?
Surgeons are free to work in private hospitals in mine and other countries. If they are employed by the state in a public facility however, their pay is set by the state. And their pay is still very good.

But in short yes. Why wouldn’t I? You think greed, maximizing income (while pushing up cost) is the only thing that makes people do the tougher jobs? The fallacy of neo-liberalism - the only thing that motivates people is money.
 
If the U.S. gets socialized healthcare, then where will the rest of the world go to get excellent healthcare when the healthcare of their home countries fails them?
you have evidence of that - people from other first world countries, Europe, Australasia, Canada ‘escaping’ to the U.S for decent healthcare?
 
You are asking for communism.

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…or a representative democracy, with varying degrees of taxation and government expenditure, depending on which country we use as an example. If people don’t like paying taxes to help others, they can vote for the Libertarian Party at the next election. Mostly they don’t. What does that tell you.
 
If the U.S. gets socialized healthcare, then where will the rest of the world go to get excellent healthcare when the healthcare of their home countries fails them?

Our hospitals do a nice business with folks from other countries coming here for medical treatment.

Those other countries protect the government monopoly by outlawing inexpensive, quick private healthcare. So, without the United States, what country will act as an “escape valve” for folks from other countries?
You mean those people who earn less than one dollar per day? Is that what you mean by “the rest of the world”?

And to answer your question:
More than 70,000 Britons will have treatment abroad this year – a figure that is forecast to rise to almost 200,000 by the end of the decade. Patients needing major heart surgery, hip operations and cataracts are using the internet to book operations to be carried out thousands of miles away.
India is the most popular destination for surgery, followed by Hungary, Turkey, Germany, Malaysia, Poland and Spain. But dozens more countries are attracting custom. Research by the Treatment Abroad website shows that Britons have travelled to 112 foreign hospitals, based in 48 countries, to find safe, affordable treatment.
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/28/nhealth128.xml

Didn’t say the United States so it wouldn’t harm too many people.
 
17,000 out of 60,000,000 population of which 13,000,000 were treated by the NHS during that year doesn’t exactly say a lot (noting also the comment about the cheapness of those destinations as opposed to private hospitals in the UK, the traditional way of getting express treatment).

I doubt that there’s a health system, or potential health system, in existence that people don’t moan about and think in need of reform - it’s an area where every advance increases expectations rather than satisfies them.

I’ve never come across arguments that the answer to problems within the systems in countries I’m familiar with could be resolved by adopting the American model, by the way.
 
There are a ton of articles about “medical tourism” … even some that document travel TO the United States for medical treatment.

news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=5b7c206e74b96be675410f6f369b5113

That’s just one.

And it has some data.

Surprising, isn’t it, for a “high-cost country” like the United States.

Here are a few key paragraphs:

Mayo Clinic. Johns Hopkins. Cleveland Clinic. Texas Medical Center. Together with nine medical facilities in Philadelphia, these domestic drivers of medical tourism alone report welcoming more than 30,000 patients from more than 100 countries last year.

Philadelphia International Medicine (PIM) is the only U.S. medical consortium formed specifically to attract foreign patients to one metropolitan area, according to Leonard Karp, executive vice president and chief operations officer. Among its members are University of Pennsylvania Medical Center, Temple University Hospital and Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia. Founded six years ago, PIM is also building a hospital in Korea at an estimated cost of $860 million.

“Originally, our hope was to generate $200 million a year for the Philadelphia region, with about 6,000 patients generating $60 million in revenue,” Karp says. “Since 9/11, we have restructured to be in a better position to withstand world events. This year, we attracted between 4,000 and 5,000 patients, mostly from the Caribbean, Middle East and Brazil, who generated more than $60 million in economic activity in Philadelphia.”

And a very interesting article from Wikipedia … which overlooks the United States … but does have some interesting insights on delays, waiting lines, and rationing in such places as Canada.

You have to read between the lines to see where the patients are coming FROM …

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

There’s tons of good stuff out there. Although a lot of it seems to have a bias against the United States. For example, I found one article about medical tourism TO the U.S. But that flow of medical tourists is ignored in other articles. Hmmmmm.

:rolleyes:
 
Surgeons are free to work in private hospitals in mine and other countries. If they are employed by the state in a public facility however, their pay is set by the state. And their pay is still very good.

But in short yes. Why wouldn’t I? You think greed, maximizing income (while pushing up cost) is the only thing that makes people do the tougher jobs? The fallacy of neo-liberalism - the only thing that motivates people is money.
It seems you have a very strange idea what greed is. I never once said or hinted that MD’s went into it for only $$, it is just one of the perks. After what point do you consider someone’s salary “greedy?”
 
how is being happy with an already reasonably high income “strange”?
Cynic:

Most Physicians go to school for something like 10-12 years including residency, after which they have over $100,000 in debts from various types of student loans. That’s before Physicians turn 30 or have a single day in practice.

Then, On top of the $250,000 more it costs to set oneself up in practice, there is the annual cost of Malpractice Insurance (over $200,000/yr. in the case of some specialties). And, We haven’t rented office space or hired an office staff yet, and, even though Physicians can share, those things still aren’t cheap.

The above gives an annual expenses of anywhere from $300,000 - $500,000, depending on specialty, before the Physician has even seen one patient! That means most of what they make, esp. when starting out, is eaten up paying expenses.

I don’t know what you know about HMO’s - They do their best to underpay Physicians and make it difficult for them to get the money they’ve earned.

From 1995-1996, the Otolaryngologist who performed my craniotomy (removed an acoustic tumor from my brain) performed several follow-up visits on me without receiving or requesting payment - He had left the HMO we had both been in but felt my care was too essential to leave my care to someone else. He wasn’t the only one - Another Otolaryngologist had left the HMO after the Acoustic Tumor was diagnosed but before the surgery, and the Otolaryngologist who performed the surgery did an extra procedure (reattaching my 7th cranial nerve) which the HMO never paid for.

Another gentleman I know was once the President of the American Assoc. of Physicians Assistants with the last 15 years of practice working with AIDS patients. He didn’t even own a car for most of the last few years - until his parish bought him one so he could visit the sick (He’s a priest in the ACA).

What “High Income”?! I just don’t see it. And, whatever most Physicians earn (except for maybe for plastic surgeons who cater to the rich) they more than deserve.

If you’re really worried about what we have to pay Doctors, Maybe you should should look at dealing with the unGodly debt they have to take on in order to become Doctors, and how Medical Schools effectively use them as “Slave Labor” during their Residency - What do you think would happen if Physicians didn’t have to worry about a crushing dept burden before starting practice, but were debt free? And, Then, maybe you should look at Tort Reform so competent Doctors don’t have to worry about Malpractice Suits arrising not from Malpractice, but from occasions where patients and families are disatisfied with the outcomes - What would happen if the Malpractice costs were cut by 2/3?

I know some doctors would still be “money hungry”, greedy you know whats, but I think you find that a lot of them got into the profession so they can help people…

I’d be far more worried about the multimillion dollar salaries paid to CEO’s and other executives whose only accomplishments often seem to be increasing the Stock Value of their corporations while laying the employees of those corporations off or moving their factories overseas where they can use non-living wage or slave & prison labor (China).

And, about a tax system which seems deliberately designed so that the top 1/2% of taxpayers pay a lower percentage in taxes than the next 10% of taxpayers. I know the Media concentrates on the top 1%, but the glitch in the Tax Code - SSA collection gives the break to the top 1/2%. The next 1/2% pay nearly 15% more in taxes than the top 1/2% because of that glitch in the combined Tax Code - SSA collected.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
If you’re really worried about what we have to pay Doctors, Maybe you should should look at dealing with the unGodly debt they have to take on in order to become Doctors, and how Medical Schools effectively use them as “Slave Labor” during their Residency - What do you think would happen if Physicians didn’t have to worry about a crushing dept burden before starting practice, but were debt free?
It’s your citizens who have voted for governments that will not help fund the cost of tuition/training. In this country annual med school fees don’t go above $10,000. I knew someone from school who became a GP in five years.
 
It’s your citizens who have voted for governments that will not help fund the cost of tuition/training. In this country annual med school fees don’t go above $10,000. I knew someone from school who became a GP in five years.
What country would that be? (hint: having basic profile info is a wonderful thing if you are going to use pronouns 🙂 )
 
you have evidence of that - people from other first world countries, Europe, Australasia, Canada ‘escaping’ to the U.S for decent healthcare?
Sorry, I forgot to respond directly: yes.
 
It’s your citizens who have voted for governments that will not help fund the cost of tuition/training. In this country annual med school fees don’t go above $10,000. I knew someone from school who became a GP in five years.
Yeah, the residency is 5 years for GP (officially called Family Practice).; but there is 4 years of med school before that and then 4 years of school for your undergraduate degree before that.

Did you know on average, say for OB/GYN, that 60% of their gross income pays for their overhead? That includes staff, office, equipment, supplies, and malpractice insurance. Now granted the high cost of malpractice insurance we’ve brought upon ourselves by not capping insurance lawsuits, but the rest goes to show doctors aren’t fly-by-night millionaires.
 
Yeah, the residency is 5 years for GP (officially called Family Practice).; but there is 4 years of med school before that and then 4 years of school for your undergraduate degree before that.

Did you know on average, say for OB/GYN, that 60% of their gross income pays for their overhead? That includes staff, office, equipment, supplies, and malpractice insurance. Now granted the high cost of malpractice insurance we’ve brought upon ourselves by not capping insurance lawsuits, but the rest goes to show doctors aren’t fly-by-night millionaires.
That bit about malpractice caught my eye. A couple of good articles on this:

mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-specialties-get-sued-most-in-usa.html
baltimore.bizjournals.com/baltimore/stories/2005/09/19/story1.html?page=2
 
The only way to get an answer to this question is to ask the Vatican press office or better still, ask Cardinal Szoka, if all *citizens *of Vatican City have health insurance. If they do, then the Catholic church is in favor of universal health care.

Matthew
 
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