Socialized healthcare

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…or a representative democracy, with varying degrees of taxation and government expenditure, depending on which country we use as an example. If people don’t like paying taxes to help others, they can vote for the Libertarian Party at the next election. Mostly they don’t. What does that tell you.
We still, as a nation, are woefully ignorant of free market economics. If we, as a nation, had a more knowledge of economics, we wold not be in the health care (and other) crises that we are. Education is the off-topic key to this.

Christ’s peace.
 
The only way to get an answer to this question is to ask the Vatican press office or better still, ask Cardinal Szoka, if all *citizens *of Vatican City have health insurance. If they do, then the Catholic church is in favor of universal health care.

Matthew
Well…

Maybe that…

or

Maybe that they are in favor of employer-provided health care. (I don’t know of any citizens of the Vatican City State who are not employees)
 
We still, as a nation, are woefully ignorant of free market economics. If we, as a nation, had a more knowledge of economics, we wold not be in the health care (and other) crises that we are. Education is the off-topic key to this.

Christ’s peace.
And you are too… market failure exists you know.
 
And you are too… market failure exists you know.
I will take my chances with the market, rather than the guaranteed mediocrity and/or failure of any government program. Example: the US stock market. Short run, you can lose your shorts. Long run, you will earn enough to buy more shorts for yourself and your neighbors as well. Look at the long run. I will likely not collect a penny of social security, because it is a demographic failure. Great in the 1930s. Horrible and non-sustainable in the new millennium. Since birth control and abortion became popular, the population growth rate cannot sustain a Ponzi scheme such as SS.

You are searching for a perfect world. Not in this life will you find it.
 
Yep! 👍 In fact, it would probably be a good idea to round up all the healthy people and make them indentured servants. Certainly, they are fit enough to do the bulk of the work for everyone else. There is no reason that someone who is not healthy should have to endanger their lives by moving and/or lifting anything. Get them all free electric scooters. 😛
And there is a guy who has gotten rich – very, very, very rich – on that scheme. I was reading an article that a few years ago in Florida, investigators found one scooter that had been sold – with Medicare paying for it each time – more than sixty times.
 
…or a representative democracy, with varying degrees of taxation and government expenditure, depending on which country we use as an example.
The country we use is irrelevent. It is the idea that is representative of communism.
If people don’t like paying taxes to help others, they can vote for the Libertarian Party at the next election. Mostly they don’t. What does that tell you.
Paying taxes is not a charitable contribution.
 
Are HSA’s available in your state?

I tried to get one and was told they were not available.

And there are all sorts of restrictions, placed by the government, on affordable medical insurance.

It’s almost as though they are setting us up for a self-fulfilling prophecy. We are not permitted to purchase, freely, low cost medical insurance. Then we are being told that there are no free-market alternatives (which is only because the government doesn’t permit them.)

And inexpensive medical treatment is also not available because of government restrictions.

So, then they say that … well, inexpensive medical treatment is not available.

There are places in NYS and NJ where certain specialties (such as obstetrics and orthopedic surgery) are difficult to find because the doctors have moved away or gone into other fields (such as real estate … no joke).

I live a few blocks from a major hospital … you would think that the hospital could offer low cost health insurance and low cost care.
 
Apparently our Congress just passed a law requiring all medical insurance to cover mental illness. Which causes the cost of the medical insurance to increase.

So if anyone is wondering why you can’t get medical insurance that will just cover catastrophic illness (once upon a time called “hospitalization” insurance), now you know the reason.

Our Congress keeps mandating additional coverages. Whether you want them or not.

And … you keep wondering why folks don’t want to pay for medical insurance.

And it’s not the big bad insurance companies that are the bad guys … it’s the folks we elect to Congress and send to Washington.

They named it after Paul Wellstone.
 
O’Malley,
Whether it is that the Vatican is in favor of employer-provided health care or government sponsored universal health care is immaterial. If all citizens of Vatican City have health care, then the Church is in favor of universal health care at least within itself.
I think that Szoka’s office (City Manager) will have access to the relevant information.

Matthew
 
O’Malley,
Whether it is that the Vatican is in favor of employer-provided health care or government sponsored universal health care is immaterial. If all citizens of Vatican City have health care, then the Church is in favor of universal health care at least within itself.
I think that Szoka’s office (City Manager) will have access to the relevant information.

Matthew
There is a HUGE difference.

Employer-provided health care is part of the compensation package offered employees…and a rather expensive portion of compensation it is, indeed.

State-provided health care is welfare (unless the person is an employee of the State).
 
We don’t need socialized healthcare but we do need to insure those such as the disabled who are unable to insure themselves through employment. These are the most vulnerable of society and to abandon them would just be wrong. The Church and other charities are unable to pick up this burden so it must fall on the government and be funded through a certain portion of taxes.
 
There is a HUGE difference.

Employer-provided health care is part of the compensation package offered employees…and a rather expensive portion of compensation it is, indeed.

State-provided health care is welfare (unless the person is an employee of the State).
The ONLY reason we, in the United States, have employer-provided medical insurance NOT health care] is that during World War 2, there were wage controls. In order to give the employees something, the employers got permission to provide hospitalization insurance as a benefit.

That was 1940 and we are still stuck with it, except now there are regulations piled on top of regulations.

For example, people who are self-employed get screwed. Today in the mail I got the Federal tax regulations that restrict HSA’s. So, basically, the biggest obstruction to individuals providing their own medical insurance is… ta-da … the Federal government which is restricting access … and also some of the State governments.

The insurance companies WANT to provide affordable medical insurance, but the government won’t let them.
 
The insurance companies WANT to provide affordable medical insurance, but the government won’t let them.
Then explain why they offer me coverage at rates 4-5X my peers if they offer me a rate at all. Explain to me why when I buy this outrageously expensive coverage they deny me coverage of everything under the sun saying it is part of my congenital birth defect that they don’t cover. Explain to me how pneumonia can be declared to be not covered because I have that extra chromosome? Explain to me how an appendectomy can be denied because of the same reasons? Explain to me how they can deny me everything, charge me four times as much, when I can pay out of pocket less than $1000 for my ‘pre-existing’ condition. They deny me everything based on this condition, yet the condition itself pales in comparison to the normal every day things they have denied me time and time again.

They are unjust, they are unfair, they treat me horribly, and I have no legal recourse, I know, I tried.
 
Then explain why they offer me coverage at rates 4-5X my peers if they offer me a rate at all. Explain to me why when I buy this outrageously expensive coverage they deny me coverage of everything under the sun saying it is part of my congenital birth defect that they don’t cover. Explain to me how pneumonia can be declared to be not covered because I have that extra chromosome? Explain to me how an appendectomy can be denied because of the same reasons? Explain to me how they can deny me everything, charge me four times as much, when I can pay out of pocket less than $1000 for my ‘pre-existing’ condition. They deny me everything based on this condition, yet the condition itself pales in comparison to the normal every day things they have denied me time and time again.

They are unjust, they are unfair, they treat me horribly, and I have no legal recourse, I know, I tried.
If you’re a student, does the college offer medical insurance for students?

Have you contacted any independent insurance agents? … they work for you and not for insurance companies.

Might also consider researching HSA’s on the internet.

The law changes constantly in terms of what kinds of policies the law will allow insurance companies to issue.

I always wondered why hospitals themselves don’t offer medical insurance. They have all the facilities and staff right there. The overhead costs are already covered.

When my wife worked at a hospital admitting office, they had to admit everyone who showed up regardless of whether they had insurance or not. Other folks with no money used to go the “clinic” route, but eventually decided that they preferred being a private patient and came up with the insurance premiums.

In some states, there are open enrollment periods in which some insurance companies (Blue Cross/Blue Shield??) took everyone who applied.

Obviously I have no idea of the details of your personal situation but I will add you to my prayer partner list and let’s see if some of the approaches outlined above might be useful. But you have to add me to your prayer partner list as well. Just put my name on a little yellow stickie and attach it to the side of your computer screen. My family and I need all the prayers we can get.

Thanks,
  • Al
 
Apparently our Congress just passed a law requiring all medical insurance to cover mental illness. Which causes the cost of the medical insurance to increase.

So if anyone is wondering why you can’t get medical insurance that will just cover catastrophic illness (once upon a time called “hospitalization” insurance), now you know the reason.

Our Congress keeps mandating additional coverages. Whether you want them or not.

And … you keep wondering why folks don’t want to pay for medical insurance.

And it’s not the big bad insurance companies that are the bad guys … it’s the folks we elect to Congress and send to Washington.

They named it after Paul Wellstone.
Oh yes. Require those with mental illness to pay more without coverage. :rolleyes: I think it is about time this be treated as anything else on an equal basis.
 
Then explain why they offer me coverage at rates 4-5X my peers if they offer me a rate at all. Explain to me why when I buy this outrageously expensive coverage they deny me coverage of everything under the sun saying it is part of my congenital birth defect that they don’t cover. Explain to me how pneumonia can be declared to be not covered because I have that extra chromosome? Explain to me how an appendectomy can be denied because of the same reasons? Explain to me how they can deny me everything, charge me four times as much, when I can pay out of pocket less than $1000 for my ‘pre-existing’ condition. They deny me everything based on this condition, yet the condition itself pales in comparison to the normal every day things they have denied me time and time again.

They are unjust, they are unfair, they treat me horribly, and I have no legal recourse, I know, I tried.
Let’s look at this with a little objectivity. Insurance companies are companies. They are publicly held and are supposed to make money, right? (If you own stock in one or are in a union-sponsored retirement plan or hold shares in a mutal fund, as part of an IRA, you should answer the above “yes”)

As an example, I looked at the company Aetna. They are one of the big health insurance companies that you complain about. During the 4th quarter of 2007, they brought in 7.144 billion in revenue and had net earnings of 448.4 million. That works out to a 6.2% profit. That is reasonable, if not, in fact, a bit low. You will, of course, counter my discussion with a mention of the fact that the outrageous executive salaries are part of their operating expenses. Well, I looked. (In public companies, executive compensation is a matter of public record). Their CEO, Ronald Williams, made $1.7 million salary and a total compensation of $7.732M. That works out to be a little more than $0.50 for each of the 15 million subscribers of Aetna. In fact, if you took a look at the combined compensation of ALL of the executive suite, you’d find that they earned about $15 million last year. In other words, about a dollar per subscriber goes to pay for the entire executive suite. So if the ENTIRE executive suite at Aetna decided to take a vow of poverty and do what they do for free, transferring the savings to the subscribers, you’d pay about a dollar less a year for your Aetna insurance policy. So it’s not that the stockholders are making too much money (6.2% profit) or that the Executive Suite salaries are too high (a dollar a year per subscriber)…there has got to be another reason for you to be in the insurance situation you’re in.

But why is your insurance so high and why do they deny so much? A complete discussion is WAY beyond the scope of what can be discussed on this board (and all the particulars are not in my personal area of expertise), but, in general, the way it works is that if you work for a large company, that company negotiates a package for its employees with an insurer. The insurance company is going to make money off the deal (but not an outrageous amount…as shown above). The insurance company anticipate what they believe the total amount of medical bills they will have to pay out for the health care of all the members of that group, their internal costs, and then assign rates based upon that anticipated cost. The rules of what is and is not covered is pretty much an industry standard…but your company may have certain restrictions on what they will pay the insurance company to provide (for example, if you work for a company that has a Catholic ethos, they may not pay for abortions or for artificial birth control…if the state laws allow those provisions, that is). If you work for yourself or for a small company, there is a far smaller pool to balance out the anticipated costs.* That could explain why your rates are higher. In addition, if you have employer-provided insurance, your employer will likely pay between 1/2 to 2/3 of the cost of that insurance. If you have to self-insure, you have to bear all of those costs yourself.

*Note: there are some states that have insurance regulations creating a pool of self-insureds…which would affect all of the members of that group.

As to the denied charges, here’s what I’d consider: You (or your company) signed a contract with your insurance company. (If you have employer-provided insurance, then you subscribed) Exclusions were part of that contract. For example, page 16 of Aetna’s individual insurance brochure states that if you have certain medical conditions, you will have to pay more for your rates or they might not agree to insure you. They also say that they won’t cover pre-existing conditions for the first 12 months of coverage (unless you already had health insurance). Bottom line is if you signed a contract and they went against the terms and conditions of the contract, they did wrong. If you signed a contract and didn’t read/ understand the terms and conditions, that doesn’t make them evil. That means you made a very foolish decision.

Would socialized healthcare be good for your situation? Likely it might seem better than what you have right now. But, I would suggest that you should consider the quality of health care in socialized medicine countries prior to becoming an advocate for it. You would find that you wouldn’t like the end result…not just for you, but for everybody. But if it seems like a good idea, feel free to move to Canada or Britain.
 
It is obvious that those who live comfortably and can afford their own insurance will be totally against socialized healthcare. Tryto remember those who have catastrophic situations. They should be helped by the government. This is not a call for socialized healthcare but a blended system. Allow those who already have private insurance to keep that but assist those who can’t afford their own to have something.
 
Would socialized healthcare be good for your situation? Likely it might seem better than what you have right now. But, I would suggest that you should consider the quality of health care in socialized medicine countries prior to becoming an advocate for it. You would find that you wouldn’t like the end result…not just for you, but for everybody. But if it seems like a good idea, feel free to move to Canada or Britain.
The same pre-existing disqualify me from getting insurance through my job. The personal plans I have have been held much longer than the pre-existing clause. I have a condition that they consider in the excluded treatment zone, however they will relate things like flu, pneumonia and appendicitis as ‘caused’ by the excluded condition and thus deny it well after my pre-existing exclusion period has ended.

Right now I sit with about 300,000-400,000 of medical debt because of multiple hospitalizations as that is the only way I can get treatment. The hospitals eventually take pity and throw it out slowly, but my credit is ruined for ever, I can never save a dime despite supposedly making a decent standard of living, I have more debt than my own parents mortgage right now.

As for insurance companies with open enrollment. BCBS was one of the very company that denied me payment over my appendectomy because of my excluded condition, despite the fact I had had them for four years by that time.
 
If you’re a student, does the college offer medical insurance for students?

Have you contacted any independent insurance agents? … they work for you and not for insurance companies.

Might also consider researching HSA’s on the internet.
  • Al
I am no longer a student. The plans I have had in the past were all by insurance agents, I was a tough customer, and they failed me every single time. HSA’s are nowhere near enough for my medical bills. I have reoccurring kidney stones, nearly yearly pneumonia and a few other problems. Ironically none of them are the excluded condition that they usually deny my coverage based on, they’re all covered things, the genetic anomaly I have that makes them deny me only costs about $500-1000 a year. The rest costs me 75,000-100,000 a year, because my only solution is direct hospital visits.

I’ve already filed bankruptcy once, and soon as the time limit for another expires I will file again, and again and again, most likely for the rest of my life, unless something changes. I make too much income to qualify for state/federal aid. If I were to quit work and live off of the system I might be able to, but I consider that cheating.
 
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