Socialized healthcare

[Al_Masetti]

And you wrote that people have to fix things themselves. One cannot do that with mental illness. It is not something that the individual causes. They do not deliberately misbehave so incarceration of the mentally ill is not the answer. They deserve treatment and equal treatment under health insurance at that. Which is why I am glad that Congress passed the law it did last week.

Please keep in mind that folks CAN change themselves.

People do it all the time. With mental illness.

It has nothing to do with cause. It has to do with internal behavior modification. And self-training.

The key is to admire one small thing that is observed being done by another person and then emulating that one thing. Emulate it five times … rehearsing it silently … just visualizing being that person doing that one thing.

It might, for example, be demonstrating patience in a specific situation. Or it might be expressing appreciation for a favor done by someone else. Then what you do is visualize yourself (silently rehearsing that behavior) … even if it’s a very small thing … doing that positive thing under the specific circumstance.

That one new skill becomes a positive building block.

Watch the way people walk or step up a curb or a staircase. Some folks have positive walks. Some just slump along. Visualize the positive walk. Pilots do that when they learn to land a plane … they go out and watch other people landing the planes. They use small model planes to visualize maneuvers. And they use hand motions. And even flight simulators. All as part of the visualization to establish worthwhile habits.

It could be visualizing throwing a basket ball or a football or rowing a canoe. Or visualizing swinging a baseball bat and hitting home runs. Actually, many many baseball and softball players do exactly that … visualize batting. They start by visualizing hitting balls that are moving very slowly … so slowly that they can actually see the stitches on the ball. And visualize hitting to any place in the ball park.

Or visualizing running a race … and finishing the race … and winning the race. Always visualize a successful completion.

After that, you pick another positive attribute of another person and practice doing that. And after five imaginary trials, that also becomes another skill … another building block.

After a while of continuing to emulate the one best attribute of one person after another … small things … what you find is that your personality has built up a whole repertoire of new and exemplary behaviors.

And you just keep doing that. It works.

If you read the first chapter of “The Right Stuff” … the book by Tom Wolfe … he talks about the West Virginia accent of Chuck Yeager … the best pilot in the world. And Chuck Yeager’s reputation for coolness under extreme stress became world wide … to the point that every pilot began imitating Chuck Yeager’s speaking style. Every pilot wants to be cool or to appear to be cool. So, they began to speak like Chuck Yeager … and act like Chuck Yeager. Coolness under stress.

And that’s how it works.

It may be “an act” … but after a while folks become the really cool guy that they want to be exactly the way they want to be.

It can be done even just by reading. Read the biographies of people you admire. Or read history books … the kind that are memoirs of minor or major players, but who did something admirable. And you read enough of those books and pretty soon, you start to inhale the good qualities of the people you read about.

Doesn’t have to be every quality; some may not be so worthwhile to emulate.

And avoid watching movies or television programs about crime. Avoid any negative “role models”. Just pick positive role models. There are plenty out there.

And not just one or two … pick a lot of them. Start with one or two … but expand it gradually to dozens … one at a time. Read the Lives of the Saints, for example. Gradually, appropriate and productive behaviors start to become part of your own being.

And that’s how it works.

 

[goofyjim]

Please keep in mind that folks CAN change themselves.

People do it all the time. With mental illness.

It has nothing to do with cause. It has to do with internal behavior modification. And self-training.

The key is to admire one small thing that is observed being done by another person and then emulating that one thing. Emulate it five times … rehearsing it silently … just visualizing being that person doing that one thing.

It might, for example, be demonstrating patience in a specific situation. Or it might be expressing appreciation for a favor done by someone else. Then what you do is visualize yourself (silently rehearsing that behavior) … even if it’s a very small thing … doing that positive thing under the specific circumstance.

That one new skill becomes a positive building block.

Watch the way people walk or step up a curb or a staircase. Some folks have positive walks. Some just slump along. Visualize the positive walk. Pilots do that when they learn to land a plane … they go out and watch other people landing the planes. They use small model planes to visualize maneuvers. And they use hand motions. And even flight simulators. All as part of the visualization to establish worthwhile habits.

It could be visualizing throwing a basket ball or a football or rowing a canoe. Or visualizing swinging a baseball bat and hitting home runs. Actually, many many baseball and softball players do exactly that … visualize batting. They start by visualizing hitting balls that are moving very slowly … so slowly that they can actually see the stitches on the ball. And visualize hitting to any place in the ball park.

Or visualizing running a race … and finishing the race … and winning the race. Always visualize a successful completion.

After that, you pick another positive attribute of another person and practice doing that. And after five imaginary trials, that also becomes another skill … another building block.

After a while of continuing to emulate the one best attribute of one person after another … small things … what you find is that your personality has built up a whole repertoire of new and exemplary behaviors.

And you just keep doing that. It works.

If you read the first chapter of “The Right Stuff” … the book by Tom Wolfe … he talks about the West Virginia accent of Chuck Yeager … the best pilot in the world. And Chuck Yeager’s reputation for coolness under extreme stress became world wide … to the point that every pilot began imitating Chuck Yeager’s speaking style. Every pilot wants to be cool or to appear to be cool. So, they began to speak like Chuck Yeager … and act like Chuck Yeager. Coolness under stress.

And that’s how it works.

It may be “an act” … but after a while folks become the really cool guy that they want to be exactly the way they want to be.

It can be done even just by reading. Read the biographies of people you admire. Or read history books … the kind that are memoirs of minor or major players, but who did something admirable. And you read enough of those books and pretty soon, you start to inhale the good qualities of the people you read about.

Doesn’t have to be every quality; some may not be so worthwhile to emulate.

And avoid watching movies or television programs about crime. Avoid any negative “role models”. Just pick positive role models. There are plenty out there.

And not just one or two … pick a lot of them. Start with one or two … but expand it gradually to dozens … one at a time. Read the Lives of the Saints, for example. Gradually, appropriate and productive behaviors start to become part of your own being.

And that’s how it works.

That works for chosen bad behavior. I really don’t think you understand mental illness. It is chemically based and while it can be treated so the consumer can live a productive life it can’t be cured and needs a lifetime of medication which, as you said yourself, is quite expensive.

 

[Al_Masetti]

That works for chosen bad behavior. I really don’t think you understand mental illness. It is chemically based and while it can be treated so the consumer can live a productive life it can’t be cured and needs a lifetime of medication which, as you said yourself, is quite expensive.

The client also needs to take the medication. One of the issues is that many clients take the meds, start to feel better, and then refuse to continue taking the meds … because they already feel better.

The idea of visualization is for much much more than for chosen bad behavior. It is for creating new good habitual behavior.

It’s not about debating whether or not it works. It’s just doing it.

For example, … go for a long walk. A two hour walk out from home and two hours back. And don’t stop for the four hours. Observe. But just walk. No conversations. Smile and nod if you encounter another person, but just walk. Preferably quickly. Wear a hat, bring a water bottle, but both are optional except in desert conditions. Just walk. After a while, you will be amazed at the progress.

For another example, … take your rosary beads and hold them in one hand, even bunched up; Visualize the life of Jesus … from the very beginning … the Annunciation all the way through His private life with Mary and Joseph, His public life, His Passion and Death, and Resurrection and the Descent of the Holy Spirit and Mary’s participation … her Assumption and Coronation …and her subsequent apparitions. Visualize all of that as one sweeping panorama.

These are two simple things to do. Just do them. Instead of debating in your mind whether they are helpful or not, just do them. Both are objectively good; nothing evil. A long walk; a visualization of Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Whenever this subject comes up, I am reminded of a remark a physician made to me about spiraling healthcare costs. The problem, he said, is that it’s a system in which everybody expects, as a matter of right, that his neighbor will pay the costs of his care, an objective in which most succeed, whether through Medicare, Medicaid, health insurance or simply showing up at the ER and never paying.

As a consequence, few individuals focus on what it costs and why. Rather, the focus is on how I can manage to make my neighbor pay my bills. And the big business that is our healthcare system bloats on that skewed focus.

 

[pathia]

Whenever this subject comes up, I am reminded of a remark a physician made to me about spiraling healthcare costs. The problem, he said, is that it’s a system in which everybody expects, as a matter of right, that his neighbor will pay the costs of his care, an objective in which most succeed, whether through Medicare, Medicaid, health insurance or simply showing up at the ER and never paying.

As a consequence, few individuals focus on what it costs and why. Rather, the focus is on how I can manage to make my neighbor pay my bills. And the big business that is our healthcare system bloats on that skewed focus.

I wish I could pay my bills, I really do, but I owe more than my parents mortgage in medical bills, nearly double. I also have nearly another hundred thousand of school debt. Even without interest, the amount of debt I owe is over twenty times my annual salary. How is that fair, I just got sick a few times, all were hospitalizations and they NEEDED to be such, they all involved surgery, I would have died without the treatments.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Whenever this subject comes up, I am reminded of a remark a physician made to me about spiraling healthcare costs. The problem, he said, is that it’s a system in which everybody expects, as a matter of right, that his neighbor will pay the costs of his care, an objective in which most succeed, whether through Medicare, Medicaid, health insurance or simply showing up at the ER and never paying.

As a consequence, few individuals focus on what it costs and why. Rather, the focus is on how I can manage to make my neighbor pay my bills. And the big business that is our healthcare system bloats on that skewed focus.

That is exactly why I say we should have Medical Savings Accounts. Those who can pay their own way, should pay their own way. Those who can pay some of their way, should pay that amount. Only those who cannot pay at all should pay nothing. In the process, we would all learn to bargain for better prices and not to overcomsume.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I wish I could pay my bills, I really do, but I owe more than my parents mortgage in medical bills, nearly double. I also have nearly another hundred thousand of school debt. Even without interest, the amount of debt I owe is over twenty times my annual salary. How is that fair, I just got sick a few times, all were hospitalizations and they NEEDED to be such, they all involved surgery, I would have died without the treatments.

I don’t know your entire circumstance, but I will hazard to say that no one can pay debts that total twenty times his/her annual salary. It will not sound charitable of me to say it, but the bankruptcy court would at least rid you of the medical debt.

I will also hazard a guess that you were uninsured and, therefore, that you are billed at something like twice what either the government or private insurance actually pays. The system is insane.

But my point is not that you, personally, should bear the cost of your medical care or die. My point is that no one really looks at the reasons why it costs so much and goes up every year, massively more than does nearly anything else. Attention is always focused on who, other than me, will pay, and virtually no attention is paid to the reasons why the costs are so high. Thus, we are distracted from taking a real look at what I, personally, believe is a severely corrupted system of healthcare delivery.

No one pays attention to why medical care is virtually unobtainable for some, for economic reasons, yet there is massive overutilization by others, again for economic reasons. Does no one wonder why one sees advertisements for expensive drugs on television at least five times per night? Those are expensive ads, and does anyone really doubt that people go to their doctors (as the ads advise) and demand this product or that? And, of course, we often find that those drugs don’t work or will kill us or whatever. And how many billions go out of the pockets of insurers and the government into the coffers of manufacturers in the meanwhile? And all the while, doctors are supposed to be keeping up on medications so that there should be no reason for drug companies to advertise them.

I’m not trying to focus on tv drug ads here. I’m just saying it seems to me no serious attention is being given to WHY medical care, medical insurance and government programs are so expensive and getting more so all the time. Everybody just seems to accept the inevitability of it and look for a way to have it without seeming to pay for it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And my point is that someone must pay. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay for it.

Therefore if those who can pay, **do **pay, and those who can pay some pay what they can, we’ll be much more able to take care of those who cannot pay at all.

And in the process, we put competition and bargaining to work to hold down costs.

 

[pathia]

I don’t know your entire circumstance, but I will hazard to say that no one can pay debts that total twenty times his/her annual salary. It will not sound charitable of me to say it, but the bankruptcy court would at least rid you of the medical debt.

I will also hazard a guess that you were uninsured and, therefore, that you are billed at something like twice what either the government or private insurance actually pays. The system is insane.

I have filed for medical bankruptcy twice already, I’m only 28. I have to wait a few more years before I can do so again. Bankruptcy doesn’t make all debt go away, and some of the debt was ‘rediscovered’ and people still harass me about it despite the fact it was supposedly discharged. I of course have no money to fight it or point out that they are mistaken.

And yes, I had no insurance. Or I had insurance that refused to cover what happened. It is more or less impossible for me to get private insurance at an affordable rate because of my medical past. The rates I am given are about 500-900 a month to cover just myself. I can generally arrange payment structures for my debt lower than that, so what is the point?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I have filed for medical bankruptcy twice already, I’m only 28. I have to wait a few more years before I can do so again. Bankruptcy doesn’t make all debt go away, and some of the debt was ‘rediscovered’ and people still harass me about it despite the fact it was supposedly discharged. I of course have no money to fight it or point out that they are mistaken.

And yes, I had no insurance. Or I had insurance that refused to cover what happened. It is more or less impossible for me to get private insurance at an affordable rate because of my medical past. The rates I am given are about 500-900 a month to cover just myself. I can generally arrange payment structures for my debt lower than that, so what is the point?

Being uninsured, you were billed much more than your insurance company would have had to pay if you had insurance. That’s the kind of thing that makes me say the system is insane.

Wish I could buy health insurance for 500-900/month. I’m much older than you and have no adverse health history at all. My health insurance costs more than double what yours would.

 

[pathia]

Being uninsured, you were billed much more than your insurance company would have had to pay if you had insurance. That’s the kind of thing that makes me say the system is insane.

Wish I could buy health insurance for 500-900/month. I’m much older than you and have no adverse health history at all. My health insurance costs more than double what yours would.

$900 a month is about 60% of my income, thus I cannot afford rent. As said before, I’ve been homeless because it was either that or not pay for my medical care. Due to how sick and debt ridden I am, getting school finished has become almost impossible, therefore I have no degrees to use to make any more money.

$900 a month is for the basic basic plans too, with $5000 deductible and 40% copay on drugs and things. It’s the only plan anyone will provide me. I would pay roughly 12,000 a year for my medicines if I didn’t import them from overseas/Canada.

 

[goofyjim]

The client also needs to take the medication. One of the issues is that many clients take the meds, start to feel better, and then refuse to continue taking the meds … because they already feel better.

The idea of visualization is for much much more than for chosen bad behavior. It is for creating new good habitual behavior.

It’s not about debating whether or not it works. It’s just doing it.

For example, … go for a long walk. A two hour walk out from home and two hours back. And don’t stop for the four hours. Observe. But just walk. No conversations. Smile and nod if you encounter another person, but just walk. Preferably quickly. Wear a hat, bring a water bottle, but both are optional except in desert conditions. Just walk. After a while, you will be amazed at the progress.

For another example, … take your rosary beads and hold them in one hand, even bunched up; Visualize the life of Jesus … from the very beginning … the Annunciation all the way through His private life with Mary and Joseph, His public life, His Passion and Death, and Resurrection and the Descent of the Holy Spirit and Mary’s participation … her Assumption and Coronation …and her subsequent apparitions. Visualize all of that as one sweeping panorama.

These are two simple things to do. Just do them. Instead of debating in your mind whether they are helpful or not, just do them. Both are objectively good; nothing evil. A long walk; a visualization of Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

Again mental illness is not curable. It is treatable with medication. Another reason they go off of it is that when they try to return to work and get insurance that doesn’t cover the treatment they can’t afford it so they go off it causing a relapse back to hospitalization. Which in the long run is less costly-to pay for the medication which has been proven effective or to pay for a hospital bed?

 

[Al_Masetti]

Being uninsured, you were billed much more than your insurance company would have had to pay if you had insurance. That’s the kind of thing that makes me say the system is insane.

Wish I could buy health insurance for 500-900/month. I’m much older than you and have no adverse health history at all. My health insurance costs more than double what yours would.

Sometimes, an internet search for insurance companies that provide HSA’s or MSA’s may be helpful. It depends on the particulars of the various state laws, which change constantly. And the internet search and telephone calls may result in hooking up with a local insurance agent who knows all the local state ins and outs of how to get low cost medical insurance.

In addition, there was an article in the April 2008 issue of Smart Money magazine … on page 81, it talks about “Hire A Health Advocate” … a new medical profession that may be able to make a connection to get lower cost care or lower cost insurance.

 

[wabrams]

I have filed for medical bankruptcy twice already, I’m only 28. I have to wait a few more years before I can do so again. Bankruptcy doesn’t make all debt go away, and some of the debt was ‘rediscovered’ and people still harass me about it despite the fact it was supposedly discharged. I of course have no money to fight it or point out that they are mistaken.

And yes, I had no insurance. Or I had insurance that refused to cover what happened. It is more or less impossible for me to get private insurance at an affordable rate because of my medical past. The rates I am given are about 500-900 a month to cover just myself. I can generally arrange payment structures for my debt lower than that, so what is the point?

In rare cases such as yours, I’m all for government assisted healthcare; but for the vast majority of Americans, I whole-heartedly disagree with Socialized Healthcare.

 

[pathia]

In rare cases such as yours, I’m all for government assisted healthcare; but for the vast majority of Americans, I whole-heartedly disagree with Socialized Healthcare.

Two of my three roommates are in the same situation. It doesn’t seem that rare from my perspective. Admittedly my situation is worse than theirs, but they have one bankruptcy from medical bills each. I think our collective medical debt is over one million dollars, and not a one of us is over the age of 30.

Just a note, appendicitis and kidney stones are EXPENSIVE and they can happen to literally anyone.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Two of my three roommates are in the same situation. It doesn’t seem that rare from my perspective. .

But you would agree that your perspective is not universal?

The best approach is to tailor the general solution to the average citizen, then make allowances for those who are not average. It would be a serious mistake to develop a system based on those who are in the 99.9999 percentile, then try to make it fit everyone.

 

[pathia]

But you would agree that your perspective is not universal?

The best approach is to tailor the general solution to the average citizen, then make allowances for those who are not average. It would be a serious mistake to develop a system based on those who are in the 99.9999 percentile, then try to make it fit everyone.

Of course, I understand that, but also realize I’ve been homeless for probably 2years total, don’t own a single luxury item I can think of, unless it was given to me and most of those get pawned off eventually. Even this internet connection I use to post here is provided to me by work.

I will NEVER retire, ever. I will work until I die, because I can’t afford the care I need my life expectancy is extremely reduced, especially since I have endocrine disorders.

The current system is KILLING me, literally.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Of course, I understand that, but also realize I’ve been homeless for probably 2years total, don’t own a single luxury item I can think of, unless it was given to me and most of those get pawned off eventually. Even this internet connection I use to post here is provided to me by work.

I will NEVER retire, ever. I will work until I die, because I can’t afford the care I need my life expectancy is extremely reduced, especially since I have endocrine disorders.

The current system is KILLING me, literally.

And if we had the MSA system I’ve proposed, you’d be completely covered – in a competitive, low cost system.

 

[pathia]

And if we had the MSA system I’ve proposed, you’d be completely covered – in a competitive, low cost system.

Which would likely be impossible to get passed through congress. The republicans would decry the fact that it gives out free health care, and the democrats would say it’s not socialistic enough.

Which of course is why it’s a good idea

 

[vern_humphrey]

Which would likely be impossible to get passed through congress. The republicans would decry the fact that it gives out free health care, and the democrats would say it’s not socialistic enough.

Which of course is why it’s a good idea

If we all get behind it, wrote our congressmen and senators, we’d get it.

Remember the old saying, “People by and large get the kind of government they deserve.” If we work, we can govern our own country. If we are not willing to do that, we shouldn’t complaini.