Socialized healthcare

[DL82]

Not so long ago, there were stories of avant guard American celebrities who lived in London coming back to the US – because of the high crime rate in England.

If you look across Europe, and indeed, the World, the thing that’s most conducive to low crime rates is… social welfare and economic equality!

If you have a society where people can get legitimately rich by working hard, rich enough to enjoy the fruits of their labours, i.e. a nice house, frequent holidays, etc. but where people feel that the rich are contributing to everybody’s welfare, and that their own quality of life isn’t bad, people will be likely to do an honest day’s work.

If you have a society where the super-rich, like your American celebrities who buy their 5th home in one of London’s most affluent Georgian squares, can shop every day for handbags and dresses that cost more than a lifetime’s wages for a poor migrant worker, then people will be encouraged to think that their only chance at getting a share of the wealth is through crime.

You can treat the symptoms, by putting more and more people in jail, blaming the victim, (the UK has the highest prison population in Europe, but still a million miles behind America) or you can try to help people out of poverty. You can acknowledge that you are your brother’s keeper.

Denmark, low crime, Brazil, high crime.
Japan, low crime, Russia, high crime.
etc.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If you look across Europe, and indeed, the World, the thing that’s most conducive to low crime rates is… social welfare and economic equality!

So how come the victimization rate in England is the highest in the industrialized world, according to the EU?

If you have a society where people can get legitimately rich by working hard, rich enough to enjoy the fruits of their labours, i.e. a nice house, frequent holidays, etc. but where people feel that the rich are contributing to everybody’s welfare, and that their own quality of life isn’t bad, people will be likely to do an honest day’s work.

So how come you have so many hard core unemployed?

If you have a society where the super-rich, like your American celebrities who buy their 5th home in one of London’s most affluent Georgian squares, can shop every day for handbags and dresses that cost more than a lifetime’s wages for a poor migrant worker, then people will be encouraged to think that their only chance at getting a share of the wealth is through crime.

You talking about the Beatles and other English celebrities?

You can treat the symptoms, by putting more and more people in jail, blaming the victim, (the UK has the highest prison population in Europe, but still a million miles behind America) or you can try to help people out of poverty. You can acknowledge that you are your brother’s keeper.

So how come you have the world’s highest victimization rate?

 

[BamaRider]

What use is the right to life, if you’re starving to death or can’t afford the meds you need to stay alive? What use is the right to liberty if you are stuck in two dead-end jobs that take up all your waking time so you can pay off your healthcare and student loan? What does the pursuit of happiness mean to somebody who’s living on the street or to parents who can’t afford to give their kids a decent education?

And I’m telling you NONE of that happens here.

Nobody is denied healthcare. You can walk in any ER and gain access to the finest healthcare anywhere. Take a walk through the typical American hospital with private rooms and etc, then walk through a British hospital, and come tell us which place you’d rather be.

Nobody is “stuck” in a dead end job. For crying out loud millions arrive on these shores EVERYDAY with nothing more then a few cents, and are millionaires 2 years later. That can’t happen anywhere else.

No gurantees, all America offers is a *chance, *and that is why people risk their lives to get here.

Do I pay my son’s students loans YES, is my health insurance expensive? Yes. But not as expensive as turning my freedom over to the govt. I do all that and can still ride my motorcycles to anywhere at anytime, and turn on my big screen TV, and I’m nothing special.

If ya wanna see how well off a place is, just count up the all ya can eat buffets for 6 dollars. LOL. Those places don’t exist outside U.S. borders. Heck, when I was in the UK I had to beg them to put ice in my Coke, and refills were extra

In many places you’re pretty much gonna be what your parents were. Although not impossible, I don’t see how the average factory worker in Birmingham can ever get to the next level when the govt garnishes half of his wages in taxes. It is not physically impossible. Talk about “old money” but y’all have a boat load of it.

And we do all that at the same time maintaining the worlds’ finest military, but I’m happy to concede the Brits are about the only people over there that can defend themselves.

And I’ll say this, I feel more at home there than in some of the places HERE.

 

[DL82]

Nobody is “stuck” in a dead end job. For crying out loud millions arrive on these shores EVERYDAY with nothing more then a few cents, and are millionaires 2 years later. That can’t happen anywhere else.

If ya wanna see how well off a place is, just count up the all ya can eat buffets for 6 dollars. LOL. Those places don’t exist outside U.S. borders. Heck, when I was in the UK I had to beg them to put ice in my Coke, and refills were extra

People arrive on America’s shores with 2c and are millionaires soon after? What century are you living in? Do these people all speak-a with Italian accents and play accordions as they get off the leaky steam-boats? I’ve tried to get a visa to come to the USA, to get married, and even that was a difficult task. People don’t just show up at Ellis Island with a phrasebook and a one-way ticket anymore.

The word is quality quality food, quality leisure time, quality relationships. I don’t measure my wealth by how obese I can become on 6 dollars.

 

[DL82]

People arrive on America’s shores with 2c and are millionaires soon after? What century are you living in? Do these people all speak-a with Italian accents and play accordions as they get off the leaky steam-boats? I’ve tried to get a visa to come to the USA, to get married, and even that was a difficult task. People don’t just show up at Ellis Island with a phrasebook and a one-way ticket anymore.

The word is quality quality food, quality leisure time, quality relationships. I don’t measure my wealth by how obese I can become on 6 dollars.

Sorry, it’s getting late, I’m getting grouchy now. I’m going to sign off for the night.

Let’s agree to disagree.

 

[vern_humphrey]

We’re dealing with the “I hate America” syndrome. No logic or facts will change that.

 

[Filius99993]

We’re dealing with the “I hate America” syndrome. No logic or facts will change that.

Yes, rationality is for squares.

 

[DL82]

In many places you’re pretty much gonna be what your parents were. Although not impossible, I don’t see how the average factory worker in Birmingham can ever get to the next level when the govt garnishes half of his wages in taxes. It is not physically impossible. Talk about “old money” but y’all have a boat load of it.

And we do all that at the same time maintaining the worlds’ finest military, but I’m happy to concede the Brits are about the only people over there that can defend themselves.

And I’ll say this, I feel more at home there than in some of the places HERE.

Sorry, just a couple of last comments. The average factory worker in Birmingham is probably an administrator, an engineer or a technician, because there are almost no factories working on old-style production lines anymore, it’s not cost effective.

If he wants to advance his career by taking a degree, he can do it, and the government will give him a grant of £1000 a year, a 0% real interest loan (the interest is equal to the rate of inflation, so no real increase in value) of up to £5,000 a year, and when he graduates, after he’s earning more than £15,000 a year, then he’ll start paying it back through the tax system. We now have nearly 50% of the population with university degrees. British employers also tend to invest much more in their employees. My last employer paid for 50% of my Masters degree which I studied part-time while working for them. Not only that, but British citizens can work and trade anywhere in the European Union, on an equal footing with their European competitors.

If he’s earning an average salary, the government will only be taking 28% of his salary in tax, and the 1st £5000 is tax free, which is the same as many states in America taking federal and state taxes together. Only when you’re earning more than £40,000 a year will the government take 40%, and that’s the highest rate. And of course, that’s his only outlay, except perhaps a company pension. No private healthcare contributions. (don’t forget to double all these figures when converting to $US)

‘Old money’ doesn’t have much influence in Britain anymore. Of the 100 richest people in the UK, only 4 of them are hereditary aristocrats, and they’re not rich because of their titles, but because they invested their money wisely in business ventures. Most of the ‘old money’ are now very poor because they have to pay tax on land that’s too small for profitable farming but too large for any other use. Most of the rich are self-made, like Richard Branson or Sir Paul McCartney. Americans get confused by this because they see the ‘sir’ or ‘lord’ before someone’s name and think they must be old money. These titles are no longer handed down through families but are handed out for life to someone who’s made a contribution to British society.

I’m more proud to call myself a European than a Brit though. I’m most proud that our continent got together after the last World War and decided never again. I’m proud that our army go out to the world to keep peace in Afghanistan and Kosovo and Sierra Leone (but not so proud that they’re in the other place), but I’m even more proud that, like our European neighbours, we no longer need that army to defend us from one another. We will never face another invasion, and am proud that we can spend less on our defences and more on helping one another.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sorry, just a couple of last comments. The average factory worker in Birmingham is probably an administrator, an engineer or a technician, because there are almost no factories working on old-style production lines anymore, it’s not cost effective.

How is that different from the US?

How many man-hours are required to build an automobile in England?

If he wants to advance his career by taking a degree, he can do it, and the government will give him a grant of £1000 a year, a 0% real interest loan (the interest is equal to the rate of inflation, so no real increase in value) of up to £5,000 a year, and when he graduates, after he’s earning more than £15,000 a year, then he’ll start paying it back through the tax system. We now have nearly 50% of the population with university degrees. British employers also tend to invest much more in their employees. My last employer paid for 50% of my Masters degree which I studied part-time while working for them. Not only that, but British citizens can work and trade anywhere in the European Union, on an equal footing with their European competitors.

We do better – but private industry does it.

If he’s earning an average salary, the government will only be taking 28% of his salary in tax, which is the same as many states in America taking federal and state taxes together. Only when you’re earning more than £40,000 a year will the government take 40%, and that’s the highest rate. And of course, that’s his only outlay, except perhaps a company pension. No private healthcare contributions.

If we had your tax system, the average American would fall into that 40% bracket!!

‘Old money’ doesn’t have much influence in Britain anymore. Of the 100 richest people in the UK, only 4 of them are hereditary aristocrats, and they’re not rich because of their titles, but because they invested their money wisely in business ventures. Most of the ‘old money’ are now very poor because they have to pay tax on land that’s too small for profitable farming but too large for any other use. Most of the rich are self-made, like Richard Branson or Sir Paul McCartney. Americans get confused by this because they see the ‘sir’ or ‘lord’ before someone’s name and think they must be old money. These titles are no longer handed down through families but are handed out for life to someone who’s made a contribution to British society.

Who brought up the “aristocracy?” We have no aristocracy.

I’m more proud to call myself a European than a Brit though. I’m most proud that our continent got together after the last World War and decided never again.

It was the United States that paid for your recovery, and the Americans who led you into the organization that prevented wars – NATO.

I’m proud that our army go out to the world to keep peace in Afghanistan and Kosovo and Sierra Leone (but not so proud that they’re in the other place), but I’m even more proud that, like our European neighbours, we no longer need that army to defend us from one another. We will never face another invasion, and am proud that we can spend less on our defences and more on helping one another.

If you don’t face invasion, it’s because the United States has you under our umbrella.

 

[Kaninchen]

An awful lot of these comparisons are pretty meaningless when talking about the ‘advanced industrialized societies’ – it’s a bit like talking about different models of cars, they have somewhat different components and they’re differently packaged but they ‘do the job’ with considerable efficiency and it’s all a matter of taste really - meanwhile, people will go to enormous lengths to tell you why their Ford is better than the GMC equivalent (or vice-versa and whatever).

I’ve lived in several countries now, including some pretty smart places in the US, but there’s this little village on the Italian Riviera coast . . . .

 

[DL82]

How is that different from the US?

How many man-hours are required to build an automobile in England?

We do better – but private industry does it.

If we had your tax system, the average American would fall into that 40% bracket!!

Who brought up the “aristocracy?” We have no aristocracy.

It was the United States that paid for your recovery, and the Americans who led you into the organization that prevented wars – NATO.

If you don’t face invasion, it’s because the United States has you under our umbrella.

“How many man-hours are required to build an automobile in England?” None, the best British cars are all built in Germany now

The ‘average’ American earns more than $80,000? Really?

Oh yes, those Germans would be having another go at invading us if it weren’t for the US and NATO! Why would they invade us again, we’re worth far more to them as a market for all the formerly British made cars we buy from them.

OK, it’s 10.30pm here, and we’re both just baiting eachother now, there’s no more serious debate, which I admit may be my fault, and this is no longer about socialised healthcare. Goodnight all.

 

[vern_humphrey]

“How many man-hours are required to build an automobile in England?” None, the best British cars are all built in Germany now

On the other hand, the best Japanese cars are all built in the US now.

"
The ‘average’ American earns more than $80,000? Really?

Fairly close, depending on the rate of exchange – let me point out that I am discussing working Americans, not those on welfare.

"
Oh yes, those Germans would be having another go at invading us if it weren’t for the US and NATO! Why would they invade us again, we’re worth far more to them as a market for all the formerly British made cars we buy from them.

Go back and take a look at Europe immediately post-WW II. What was the name of that expansionistic dictatorship over-running eastern Europe?

"
OK, it’s 10.30pm here, and we’re both just baiting eachother now, there’s no more serious debate, which I admit may be my fault, and this is no longer about socialised healthcare. Goodnight all.

God bless and sweet dreams.

 

[cynic]

If he’s earning an average salary, the government will only be taking 28% of his salary in tax, and the 1st £5000 is tax free, which is the same as many states in America taking federal and state taxes together. Only when you’re earning more than £40,000 a year will the government take 40%, and that’s the highest rate. And of course, that’s his only outlay, except perhaps a company pension. No private healthcare contributions. (don’t forget to double all these figures when converting to $US)

.

There’s no point in using facts when arguing here. No according to our down-home, corn-fed american friends our governments take ‘half’ our earnings…even though they don’t. Also part of the reason earnings are on average higher in the U.S is simply because it’s a much larger economy.

 

[BamaRider]

There’s no point in using facts when arguing here. No according to our down-home, corn-fed american friends our governments take ‘half’ our earnings…even though they don’t. Also part of the reason earnings are on average higher in the U.S is simply because it’s a much larger economy

The feds get me for about 17% of my income, which in my eye is still 7% too much. I don’t know what my total tax bill would be (sales, tax etc) my guess it would be about 22%. Why I live in the state I do, the tax burden is relatively “light” but only when compared to other states.

I could not have retired when I did, if lived in California or NY.

I can assure ya millions of Americans are forking over 50% of their income when ALL taxes are added up.

I think the average American now works to May something to pay his taxes. Can you imagine in England how long a guy has to work to just pay the govt? Probably sometime in August? LOL

I know, I know, it’s selfish of *me *to want to decide how I want to spend or give the money I earn .

I’ll just ask the cynic what he/she thinks my fed tax oughta be. 25%? Maybe 30? Well heck, might as well go for the Finnish double combo special and get shellacked for 60.

 

[rlg94086]

There’s no point in using facts when arguing here. No according to our down-home, corn-fed american friends our governments take ‘half’ our earnings…even though they don’t. Also part of the reason earnings are on average higher in the U.S is simply because it’s a much larger economy.

LOL…you guys make the same errors. Most people who make $80k/year in the US do not pay 28% to the Feds…more like 12-15% (deductions - personal, mortgage, etc. - and progressive rates). I have no state income tax in Washington and approximately 8.5% sales tax…what is your VAT again…17.5%? I remember when I worked in the UK, my coworkers complained to me about our sales taxes…they prefer not to have to add tax at the register…LOL…they prefer to have a higher tax, as long as the price they see in adverts is the total. I’m assuming you are also paying high petrol taxes, because I know you typically pay much more than we do at the pump.

Pay there at the time was lower and the cost-of-living was higher (Oxfordshire) than where I lived/worked at the time (Denver, CO)…regular paradise, eh?

Does the discrepancy between our healthcare costs and your lower pay and higher taxes end up being a wash? I don’t know…haven’t done the math. All I know is, as much as I really wanted my stint to go a little longer in the UK (loved the people and the lifestyle), financially it would have been worse for my family.

 

[cynic]

I pay 20% on my income, plus GST, I assume that’s what you mean by ‘sales’ tax. If you regard this as too much then fine, but most people in Australia/New Zealand do not pay anything approaching half our earnings.

 

[cynic]

I’ve spent time riding in Europe and the UK, now I’m not bragging, but all I’m gonna tell ya, my birck home, on a one acre lot, 2 cars, 2 motorcycles, big screen tv, served by a 200 channel digital cable, and a dozen all ya can eat buffets for 6 dollars within 5 miles of me, would put me in the upper 10% of Europe, but here in the wealth of American I’m just your average retired firefighter, now if ya wanna get into the top 10% and how they live here, you’d better get ready. I could not live and do what I do, anywhere in Europe, on a firefighters pension, it would just flat cost too much.

…

.

what are you doing taking vacations, riding motorcycles, watching tv - shouldn’t you be in an office somewhere working 80 hours a week? Just think how much bigger your economy would be if nobody retired or wasted time on unproductive pursuits.

 

[rlg94086]

I pay 20% on my income, plus GST, I assume that’s what you mean by ‘sales’ tax. If you regard this as too much then fine, but most people in Australia/New Zealand do not pay anything approaching half our earnings.

My mistake…I thought you were in the UK (profile information is a wonderful thing…when people actually fill them in). If my google skills are valid, your VAT (GST is a VAT, not a sales tax…my reference to sales tax was what we pay in the US) is either 10% (Australia) or 12.5% (New Zealand), so it sounds like you have a much better tax burden…unless you do an apples-apples comparison.

A person making $80k in the US is equivalent to over $100k in NZ, so doing a calculation on $100k based on the tax tables, the income tax would be 30.2%. Now, I don’t know what your deduction situation is, as this is on taxable income rates, but someone in the 20% bracket probably pays less tax in the US for the same income…and the sales tax burden is lower than the 12.5% GST, because no state’s tax is that high. The only big variable in the US is the property, state and sales tax total, as it varies greatly.

I would guess that the burden on people with a lower income is greater in NZ than in the US, but the burden on people with a higher income is probably around the same. That is dependant on how your healthcare and retirement are handled as well. I don’t know everyone’s system, but I did discuss the situation with coworkers in the Netherlands once. They have a Social Security similar to the US, plus mandatory retirement accounts administered by the employers. They also have a healthcare tax, which is separate from their high income tax and VAT. Do they get services? Yes, of course. Is it better than the US? Complicated…not sure.

My point is not that things are better here (or elsewhere). My point is that it is a much more complex issue than non-Americans like to try to make it. You can’t just look at tax rates in a progressive system and say…“see, you guys pay 28%.”

 

[BamaRider]

what are you doing taking vacations, riding motorcycles, watching tv - shouldn’t you be in an office somewhere working 80 hours a week? Just think how much bigger your economy would be if nobody retired or wasted time on unproductive pursuits.

LOL, Ohhhhhhhhh touche!

 

[DL82]

I just wanted to apologise to Vern and to anybody else trying to follow this thread, I let myself get hot-headed last night, and got carried away attacking American market values just for the sake of it. I’m sorry, that was uncalled for.

I still disagree with private healthcare, because I think health is a right not a privilege, and I think the US private system is extremely wasteful of resources compared to some of the hybrid public/simulated-market systems in Europe, but my attacks on America in general were just aimed at goading a response, and for that I’m sorry.