Societies worse off when they have God on their side 'study' shows

[Sirach14]

Is the author saying if we give up God we will have a better life?

timesonline.co.uk/article/0,2-1798944,00.html

 

[Maranatha]

Holding up the US as a religious society is a joke. As best we have a 50 - 50 split between secular leaning and religious leaning citizens. What this study shows is that it not healthy to have a split society. If you go back through history, you see the societies that had the best success were (in no particular order) Christian, Hindu, Islam and Jewish societies. There has not been one long term successful secular society.

 

[jdnation]

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side’
*By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
*http://images.thetimes.co.uk/images/trans.gif

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

NI_MPU(‘middle’);According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said. “The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. “The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

timesonline.co.uk/article/0,2-1798944,00.html

 

[abcdefg]

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are shining examples of good moral and behavior

 

[jdnation]

At least the man believes the following are immoral:
" violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. "

But then again in an irreligioius society, wouldn’t the last three be a-ok?

Maybe it’s just man’s rebellious attitude to do what’s wrong? I’d imagine what would happen if we made promiscuity a holy thing… would that mean people would be chaste just to protest? A lil’reverse psychology? Hey that idea sounds as promising as the idea of getting rid of religion!

 

[abcdefg]

jdnation:

At least the man believes the following are immoral:
" violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. "

But then again in an irreligioius society, wouldn’t the last three be a-ok?

Maybe it’s just man’s rebellious attitude to do what’s wrong? I’d imagine what would happen if we made promiscuity a holy thing… would that mean people would be chaste just to protest? A lil’reverse psychology? Hey that idea sounds as promising as the idea of getting rid of religion!

I think he’ll be the first to protest if someone gets rid of religion which means he’s out of job

 

[Lady_Cygnus]

Yes that is what the author is saying, but it has little support with his research. He is comparing two things, saying A(religion) caused B(a bad society), when infact there could be a C, D, …etc, which affect B as well. In this case some of those others include…politics, population distribution (and sampling issues), culture, and education.

In the US there is a great diversity of religions from Wiccan to Catholic (yea for Freedom of Religion!), whereas in other countries this is not the case due to past percecutions of one religion or another.

Plus, I’ve noticed that in the US people tend to say they are religious and act another way; whereas in other countries they tend to say straight out that they are not religious.

All of this has an affect on the final society, and makes this study a little to simplistic to hold water.

 

[Maranatha]

The study has a limited list of societal ills it claims prove that a society is sick.

In the UK abortion is legally limited in the third trimester much more then in the US. Just comparing abortion rates ignores the abortion on demand environment we have in the US.

This international crime survey shows the US has fewer crimes per 1,000 population in some categories such a burglary. The general trend in the US is down. The general trend in the UK is flat to slightly up.

 

[Pentecost2005]

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies."

Correlations that prove nothing.

“By their fruits you shall know them.” Matthew 7:16

“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 7:21

“And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?” Luke 6:45

Every society has a god. At least one.

But let’s face it. As this sociologist has unassailably demonstrated, we’re better off without this God business. Therefore, let us renounce our belief in Him, and live as we damn well please! That’ll show Him!

Not.

 

[Fitz]

I don’t think our society is worse off at any rate due to a belief in God, although I do admit that we have our problems. I really see some serious flaws in this study. Belief in God is just one of the variables.

 

[AnnieD]

jdnation:

The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

I don’t see where the US is considered a religious nation anymore, it’s a secularist nation. Now they are trying to take God out of the Pledge Of Allegiance, they have taken prayer out of the schools etc.

It’s more like a loss of religion that is causing the problems in the US.


AnnieD

 

[Eileen_T]

It sounds as though he had decided the outcome before he started his ‘study’ then went looking for ‘proof’. Sounds like a really [ubiased] study to me alright.

 

[MikeWM]

jdnation:

At least the man believes the following are immoral:
" violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. "

But then again in an irreligioius society, wouldn’t the last three be a-ok?

I wouldn’t say abortion would be. There are good secular arguments against abortion. Even when I was away from the Catholic Church and religion altogether, I still opposed abortion.

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

Maranatha:

In the UK abortion is legally limited in the third trimester much more then in the US. Just comparing abortion rates ignores the abortion on demand environment we have in the US.

Well - theoretically. When a baby can be aborted right up to birth for just having a cleft palate (see Rev. Joanna Jepson) I’m not sure the limits are that much. The protections in the Abortion Act have been comprehensively got around. For example, theoretically you need the opinion of two doctors that the health (physical or mental) of the mother will seriously suffer if she goes through with the pregnancy. In actual fact this ‘opinion’ is a formality with most doctors.

And did you see the report last week saying that the main British Pregnancy Advisory service gives people information as to how to get an abortion in Spain after you can ‘legally’ have one in the UK?[1,2]

Mike

[1] Yes, I thought Spain was a mostly Catholic country

[2] This is part of the reason I think overturning Roe v Wade is a tiny part of the battle. When abortions are legal nearby, even if not in my city or state, people will go elsewhere. I know the argument ‘if I don’t do it, someone else will’ is no argument at all, and abortion should be illegal, but I don’t think it will do a great deal to save lives without much better education and support.

 

[abcdefg]

MikeWM:

I wouldn’t say abortion would be. There are good secular arguments against abortion. Even when I was away from the Catholic Church and religion altogether, I still opposed abortion.

Mike

But anti-abortion movement without the support of religion is never effective. that’s why abortion in communism country are always legal or even forced

 

[MikeWM]

abcdefg:

But anti-abortion movement without the support of religion is never effective.

Why? Frankly, if the religious argument is the only one you’ve got, then a lot of people are going to not listen.

Isn’t murder considered wrong by most non-religious people too? Think about why that is, and apply that to the abortion argument.

Mike

 

[Ani_Ibi]

There may appear to be ‘good’ secular arguments against abortion but there is always a back door; a flaw. Bringing babies to full term is part of a whole package which includes sexuality, family life, faith life, and so on.

Secular humanism cuts the Gospel of Life into little packages and then examines the validity of each package on its own merits. Therein lies the dishonesty, error, and vulnerability of the secular humanist method: the cherry picking of the whole tree.

It is the Church which understands and defends the Gospel of Life as a whole package.

 

[MikeWM]

Ani Ibi:

There may appear to be ‘good’ secular arguments against abortion but there is always a back door; a flaw. Bringing babies to full term is part of a whole package which includes sexuality, family life, faith life, and so on.

Secular humanism cuts the Gospel of Life into little packages and then examines the validity of each package on its own merits. Therein lies the dishonesty, error, and vulnerability of the secular humanist method: the cherry picking of the whole tree.

It is the Church which understands and defends the Gospel of Life as a whole package.

Agreed entirely - but you have to find ways to persuade non-religious people too. Frankly, trying to stop a non-religious person from having an abortion using only religious arguments is just going to make them turn off.

Mike

 

[abcdefg]

MikeWM:

Agreed entirely - but you have to find ways to persuade non-religious people too. Frankly, trying to stop a non-religious person from having an abortion using only religious arguments is just going to make them turn off.

Mike

I agree with you on this one. But 1st atheists and agnostics(both in faith and in name) only make up of a small fraction of world’s population, 2nd without God there’s no moral, though atheists and agnostics disagree. You can talk to AnAtheist in the non-Catholic forum on this issue. I remember he said he’s anti-abortion.

 

[Maranatha]

MikeWM:

Why? Frankly, if the religious argument is the only one you’ve got, then a lot of people are going to not listen.

Isn’t murder considered wrong by most non-religious people too? Think about why that is, and apply that to the abortion argument.

Mike

I agree completely. I was handed a flyer of Bible versus by an anti-abortion activist earlier this year and thought, This would not convince one secularist.