Sociological reasons for lower Mass attendance

[Psychae]

According to a little research I did Catholic families have been shrinking. So that would definitely mean fewer Catholics

 

[LateCatholic]

Widespread information such as from the Internet is killing religion.

I disagree. The Internet has exposed all people (not just young ones) to different ideas. When I grew up, it was be a Catholic or a Protestant.
Now, young people are exposed to unlimited ideas. Certainly some choose alternate paths because of this.

I think in 500 years historians will point to this moment in time as the decline of religion in the world, and the cause will be the spread of information via the Internet - comparable to the Reformation and other changes due to the printing press.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I disagree. The Internet has exposed all people (not just young ones) to different ideas. When I grew up, it was be a Catholic or a Protestant.
Now, young people are exposed to unlimited ideas. Certainly some choose alternate paths because of this.

The best ideas are the ones that can be shown to be true in the marketplace of ideas. Back when people were given limited choices as to religious ideas, and when societal pressure made it difficult to even consider new ideas, that surely increased the rolls of followers but it surely meant some of those people would not have believed if given the choice and the information. Do you want Catholicism to appear that it needs to be shielded from scrutiny and made to appear weak, or do you want Catholicism to go toe-to-toe with other faiths and live on based on its merits?

I think in 500 years historians will point to this moment in time as the decline of religion in the world, and the cause will be the spread of information via the Internet - comparable to the Reformation and other changes due to the printing press.

I agree that the internet has made it impossible to live in a religious bubble, but like the printing press I would say that’s a good thing. Let believers be true and strong believers based on what is known, and let’s not try to wrangle doubters into the ranks by hiding what is known.

 

[DeSales111]

People have lost their sense of mystery, even before VII. Now add in liberalism, and the new trend, the worship of technology.

The Protestant deformation was the beginning of the decline of religion. It removed the mystery of the Holy Eucharist becoming the Body & Blood of Christ, the biggest mystery. Then it removed the mystery of our Blessed Mother being born without sin and her assumption into heaven. The mystery of angeles and saints went to the wayside, they were cut off and made unaccessable. Art that use to stimulate the senses and bring religion to life for children, it went too. Religion was stripped down and remade into the image of modern men. In modern times religious mystery makes Protestants uncomfortable and skeptical. With each generation this increases and evolves to what we see today, if science can’t prove it then it must not be true. And all the Protestant infighting, that just sped up the process to where we are today.

And the Catholics that left by the droves, they either got bored, fed up with scandal, were lured away by lies, or began to worship the god of liberalism.

 

[edwest211]

That is an unsupported view. The internet, like most things man creates, is a double-edged sword, containing good and bad information. No individual should rely on it entirely. Talking to actual people, even on the phone, is preferable. I’ve seen too much false and incomplete information. None of it is fact-checked, unless from a source with real names, and should be regarded as suspect.

Viewer/reader beware. Talk to a person - a priest, a nun from your school, and so on.

 

[edwest211]

The Technocracy wants to rule you. Microsoft is a $1 Trillion dollar company.

 

[OraLabora]

I don’t agree that the “New Mass” looked and sounded like a Protestant service.

Indeed. In fact if you attended a High Church Anglican service today, it would resemble our old Tridentine Mass more than it resembles or new Mass, apart from the language, including ad orientem Eucharistic Prayer. At a Low Church service, all bets are off as to what it would look like.

 

[Peeps]

Indeed. In fact if you attended a High Church Anglican service today, it would resemble our old Tridentine Mass more than it resembles or new Mass, apart from the language, including ad orientem Eucharistic Prayer. At a Low Church service, all bets are off as to what it would look like.

I know that, OraLabora. But in the U.S., in most small cities and towns, there are no “High Church Angiican” churches. The vast majority of our churches in 2019 are Evangelical Protestant and Non-denominational churches/fellowships, along with a plentiful distribution of “independent” churches. These church services in no way resemble a Catholic Mass. In fact, if someone in these churches mentioned that something in the worship service “looks Catholic,” there’s a good chance that the church Board would investigate and eliminate the “Catholic” thing from their worship service.

I know that back when Vatican II was going on, there were still plenty of Mainline Protestant churches in which the worship service did resemble the Catholic mass. But even as early as the mid-60s, these churches were “relaxing” their liturgy to make their worship services more “evangelical” so that they could try to hang onto their members who were leaving in droves to head to the lively Evangelical Protestant churches in their area! (And so were the Catholics–one Evangelical Church that I attended for several years claimed that half of their members, (total membership of 500) were former Catholics).

And although there are still a few Mainline churches in our city that maintain a traditional-looking liturgy that somewhat resembles a Catholic mass, most of them have made changes that make their service more “relaxed.” Many of the Mainlines have two services, a “traditional” and a “contemporary”., i.e., IF they still have enough people in their church to be able to afford to do this. Many of the Mainline churches in our city have less than a hundred people–very sad for churches that 75 years ago, had over a hundred young people in their confirmation class every year!

I hope this explains what I meant.

 

[edwest211]

I think there are no reliable numbers for those who go Church shopping. I have been to a few different Churches but with no shopping intentions.

 

[Peeps]

The point is that MORE information is not good for the Church.

This is an interesting point that I’ve not considered.

Our family has been figure skating fans and participants since for three generations. We have always loved the sport.

But the sport is in trouble. Although a record number of people enrolled in Learn To Skate programs around the U.S., we hear on all sides and see for ourselves at our rinks that most of these people don’t continue the sport past the most basic skills levels.

If any of you have followed the sport, you know that we have a male (Nathan Chen) who is unbeatable (for now) and has won U.S. and World titles for a few years now. We also have amazing ice dance teams who have won championships.

But Ladies and Pairs have failed to make the World or Olympic podium for years now. And saddest of all, our synchronized teams have dropped from 3rd place in the world to 7th!

I think that this idea that “too much information is not good” could possibly be one reason for the decline in numbers and quality of the skating. Online, all the flaws and pains and “humanness” of the sport come out, not to mention the crushing cost of participating in figure skating, and it scares parents away from allowing their child to go beyond simply learning how to skate and move around the rink so that they can be comfortable in a social setting at church ice skating parties and such. But to go on to learn the more intermediate and advanced skills–parents ax it as they read more and more of the negative stuff.

Of course there are so many positive things about the sport, but for the most part, the internet doesn’t have a lot of this! It’s the negative posts and social media and articles that get the attention and the “likes.”

Hmmm, thought-provoking. Wish I was wrong.

 

[Shakuhachi]

How about another factor that any help or hurt? Time for reflection. We all are too busy, too distracted with “the world”. Not enough of us take time to process our experiences, look for meaning and ponder the big question:What is life all about? Such reflection might cause some to leave the Church if it does not help the answer questions. But I think most need the spiritual structure, history and answers the Church provides. It seems to me that between consumerism, eking out a living, and electronic social networking there is no time for reflection until a great loss comes along and then people are forced to see their poverty.

 

[OraLabora]

I know that, OraLabora. But in the U.S., in most small cities and towns, there are no “High Church Angiican” churches. The vast majority of our churches in 2019 are Evangelical Protestant and Non-denominational churches/fellowships, along with a plentiful distribution of “independent” churches.

Yes these are growing here too.

I know that back when Vatican II was going on, there were still plenty of Mainline Protestant churches in which the worship service did resemble the Catholic mass. But even as early as the mid-60s, these churches were “relaxing” their liturgy to make their worship services more “evangelical” so that they could try to hang onto their members who were leaving in droves to head to the lively Evangelical Protestant churches in their area! (And so were the Catholics–one Evangelical Church that I attended for several years claimed that half of their members, (total membership of 500) were former Catholics).

My wife’s Anglican parish resembles this. The Anglicans of course still have their more “traditional” services, from the Book of Common Prayer, but in the early 60s in Canada the Book of Alternative Services came out giving the Anglicans their own little “Vatican II” moment. The problem is that those using that book have, IMHO, seen their service become more and more “alternative”. My wife’s former pastor was quite High Church (he would even sing the EP on very Catholic tones on high occasions), but the current one is quite evangelical. So while even when the former pastor did the service from the BAS, it still looked and sounded Catholic in structure, and I could easily follow along. But the new pastor has become more “alternative” and his service noticeably less Catholic in structure and appearance, to the point where I can get lost in what’s supposed to be going on even at a “Communion Service” (one with Eucharist).

Many of the Mainlines have two services, a “traditional” and a “contemporary”.

This is the case at my wife’s parish. Traditional (sans music) at 8 am, and Evangelical (with praise band) at 10 am. The two groups never speak to each other, and the same pastor tries to minister to both even though he himself is evangelical. We have a saying in French: “là où il y a l’homme, il y a l’hommerie” (roughly translated: wherever you find man, you find man’s foibles). Protestant… Catholic, we all fall into the same traps of the Devil.

I occasionally go with my wife (usually when I’ve been to a Saturday evening Mass). I haven’t been back to often since the previous pastor left. To be honest I feel quite lost and uncomfortable in the rah-rah praise-band style of service. I need silence, contemplation and sacred music to get myself together to worship God.

 

[Peeps]

I occasionally go with my wife (usually when I’ve been to a Saturday evening Mass). I haven’t been back to often since the previous pastor left. To be honest I feel quite lost and uncomfortable in the rah-rah praise-band style of service. I need silence, contemplation and sacred music to get myself together to worship God.

Back in the early 2000s, my husband subscribed to a Praise and Worship magazine, mainly to try to get a handle on what was happening to our Evangelical Protestant churches (we had not even dreamed of attending a Catholic church until 2002, after a horrible event at our Evangelical Free church).

One of the articles in that magazine was by a pastor who described how he had NEVER done a worship service the same way in all his years of pastoring.

He might have an all-song service one week, and the next week, preach for a solid hour. He might open the floor for testimonies from the congregation, or have the children present all the worship except for the sermon, or just read a book of the Bible with no sermon, or bring in missionaries, or bring in the mayor–etc. etc.

He bragged about this! He said that liturgy was a sure-fire way to kill worship!

How do you like them apples?!

We were horrified, in case you’re wondering.

 

[OraLabora]

He bragged about this! He said that liturgy was a sure-fire way to kill worship!

It sort of makes sense, in a distorted evangelical sort of way. Since there’s nobody to actually worship in an evangelical Protestant church, as opposed to Jesus Himself in a Catholic one, I would imagine that any ritual in that context would be devoid of any real focus. Whereas in Catholic (and Orthodox) liturgy, the liturgy serves to build us up to worshipping God actually made present among us. So probably yeah, in his context he’s right. But in our context, lack of proper reverential liturgy can certainly drive at least me away.

How do you like them apples?!

Not even good enough to make apple sauce!

We were horrified, in case you’re wondering.

When my mother-in-law passed away 8 years ago, we attended her memorial service in the Pentecostal church she had been attending. There was not a shred of liturgy. It struck me as so barren. Even my evangelical Anglican wife, no liturgy geek herself, felt that the lack of ritual was discomfiting.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It makes total sense if the guy is putting on an entertainment show, which he is given that Jesus in the Real Presence is not in the building.

I wouldn’t bother going to be honest. Unless maybe there was great food or I was trying to date someone who I knew would be there.

 

[Peeps]

In the Evangelical Protestant churches, Jesus is not present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament.

But…He is present in those who believe in Him and are trusting in Him as their Lord and Savior.

When I play piano in Evangelical Protestant churches, I still see Jesus in His people. And as they see Jesus in me, a Catholic, as I serve them, it is my hope that they will someday be drawn to my Church, the Catholic Church.

One of the main reasons my husband and I are Catholic is because of the loving witness of Catholics who never tried to persuade us to become Catholic, but just loved us and prayed for us.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I was careful to say Jesus in the Real Presence is not there because some Protestants always get upset if I don’t phrase it just that way.

I know Protestants mean well but their concept of “presence” of Christ is not the same thing, as it’s the same presence of Christ that I could have from my living room couch. If necessary to have “two or three gathered in his name” I could invite a friend over or have my family there (when they were alive). There is simply no reason in my mind to spend money on a church if Jesus in the Real Presence is not going to be there and instead when I show up it’s some guy preaching. YMMV.

 

[Peeps]

I agree with you that seeing Jesus in others is not the same as seeing Him in the Blessed Sacrament, and I like your illustration about the living room couch!

I don’t spend money attending Evangelical or Mainline or non-denominational Protestant churches. I go because I am hired to play piano/organ–it is a service that I perform for their congregations. I love the people and I’m honored to serve them.

And to be honest, many of “some guys preaching” in Protestant churches are really good preachers who are well-educated, articulate, and best of all, able to apply what they are teaching to real life.

That’s something I don’t see often in Catholic homilies–an application to the real lives of laypeople. I’m not sure why this is. Perhaps it’s because there are so many different types of people in any given Catholic parish, and it’s difficult for the priest to apply the Word of God to all of our daily lives. But I wish he would try.

Many homilies in Mass seem to bring up the saints. Now I know many people enjoy learning about the saints (I do, too), but frankly, I have a hard time identifying with someone who lived a thousand years ago in a European country that has changed immensely since then, who lived in abject poverty by their own choice and relied on begging for their daily bread, and who died at a young age from TB or some other infectious disease. I have a hard time figuring out exactly what I’m supposed to do with this in my daily life! (Of course, I am very bad with abstract thinking.)

I would rather hear a pastor apply the Word of God to how I should be living now, in my 60s, in my own city and country, in the 21st century.

But that’s just me. I think I will always be conflicted since I was raised in the Evangelical Protestant tradition which is all about living for Jesus in our daily lives.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

decline of religion in the world, and the cause will be the spread of information via the Internet - comparable to the Reformation and other changes due to the printing press.

Why would information kill religion? The printing press didn’t kill religion, so why should information off the Internet? I don’t think the Internet can turn a person away from their religion, unless they are already on the road away from their religion.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I enjoy some Protestant preachers, but I can listen to them on the radio, on Youtube, etc . I sometimes listen to them on my car radio on long trips.

My point is not that preaching is per se bad but that I don’t need to pay for a church building where everybody gathers once a week to hear somebody talk. One could simply put it on Youtube, or if an in-person appearance is needed, rent a hall or if the weather is nice, go to the park and stand up on a soapbox. I am also not going to go in person to a venue in this day and age every week to hear somebody talk. It’s unnecessary. Maybe I’d go a couple times a year.