Socratic Method: Good Way to Find Truth?

[Contarini]

FWIW, I regularly have ‘Socratic dialogues’ with my friends, lasting until very late at night (!). We are not “too sophisticated”, and we do reach conclusions, however small.

The Socratic method does work. I think you’re the cynical one

I suspect that you are using “Socratic” loosely. If anyone started really using the Socratic method on his friends, they would quickly cease to be his friends if they had any self-respect. Socrates (Plato’s Socrates at least) used the method on pompous people who were certainly not his friends, and on impressionable disciples who drank it all in. Sitting around and arguing about ideas on an equal footing is lots of fun, but it is not what Socrates4Jesus is talking about. The Socratic method as recorded in Plato uses a disingenuous profession of ignorance to mask an unacknowledged assumption of superiority. (At least, that’s how it looks to a modern reader–that may not be what either Plato or the historical Socrates intended.) That is what Socrates4Jesus has been imitating, and that is what I am advising him to stop imitating.

I suspect that Plato’s description of Socrates’ method is quite accurate, because in the early dialogues he frequently records people being annoyed, even enraged by Socrates’ manipulative approach. (For instance, they sometimes suggest quite reasonably that Socrates should just tell them what he thinks, but Socrates never wants to do that because that would spoil all his fun.) That is exactly how I would respond if someone treated me that way. I wouldn’t stand for it, frankly. I say this even though I love Socrates as presented in Plato (so I might put up with it once I had learned to trust and admire him, but I wouldn’t put up with it from just anyone), and even though the opinions ascribed to his opponents are generally reprehensible.

I’d rather think that it was merely a literary device, because if Socrates really acted this way then I think it was a blemish in his character. Not enough to mar my veneration seriously, mind you!

Edwin

 

[anthony022071]

The Socratic Method is like a man who doubts the substantiality of a sweater,starts pulling at a loose thread and keeps pulling at it in order to get at the bottom of the matter,until the thing comes apart. Then he can say, “Well,there was nothing to it after all!”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Do you think this is wise?

I think the better question to ask me, Leatherman, is, “In what way do you think this is wise?” Whether i think it is wise to ask and answer questions in order to learn what others believe and why they believe it is obvious, as this is in fact what i am doing.

Does anyone in his right mind intentionally do what he knows is not wise, or does he think at the time he makes each decision that what he is doing is the best thing to do at that moment?

 

[I_Leatherman]

I think the better question to ask me, Leatherman, is, “In what way do you think this is wise?” Whether i think it is wise to ask and answer questions in order to learn what others believe and why they believe it is obvious, as this is in fact what i am doing.

Does anyone in his right mind intentionally do what he knows is not wise, or does he think at the time he makes each decision that what he is doing is the best thing to do at that moment?

So many questions, but no answers. Why do you think I know the answers?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Yes, VH. Do you remember what happened to Jesus?

Socrates was not Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
More importantly, do you think they were both unjustly murdered for the similar reasons?

No. Socrates did not come to earth to save mankind.

Yes, Socrates was not Jesus, but if you took the time to read what he said you would see that he was more like Jesus than many.

Well, Socrates, in his own, limited way was trying to save mankind from lies and vice. His goal was to show people the truth about virtue in hope that this truth would set them free to become virtuous. Both he and Jesus died for similar reasons, though, admittedly, the results of each death were vastly dissimilar.

I think, though, that you misunderstood my question. When i asked if the reasons for murdering Socrates were similar to the reasons for murdering Jesus, i was asking if those human beings who condemned Jesus to die did so for similar reasons as those who condemned Socrates to die.

Please tell me, VH, why did the ancient Jewish religious leaders seek Jesus’ death?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The type of setting suitable for Socratic dialogue is a setting similar to that of Symposium-- a group of friends who are honestly and truly interested in finding truth together. It doesn’t work if two sides are hostile, and it doesn’t work if people are proud and unwilling to be critiqued.

As you can imagine, this nearly kills it. In the first place, we tend to be friends with like minded people, in the second, we human beings are a very proud race, and we tend to dislike criticism.

In this sense, I think we do need the purifying fire of God to cleanse our souls of imperfections, ala Bonaventure, so that we can truly use the light of reason to find truth-- from the introduction to the Journey of the Mind to God:

Quote:
Wherefore, it is to groans of prayer through Christ Crucified, in Whose blood we are cleansed from the filth of vices that I first invite the reader.
I think the ancients would agree-- virtue is very important if we want to find truth. Vices cloud our minds and make us hostile to unpleasant truths.

-Rob

Extremely well put, Rob! Although i’m not sure i agree with everything you wrote.

Do you think, then, that rather than seek truth here i should go where people are less hostile to me?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Certainly not. But if you want to communicate effectively you need to pay attention to how you are coming across. For instance, I often come across on the Internet as an arrogant snob. I often don’t think I really am being one. Whether this is self-deception or not, the fact is that if I am perceived that way then I’m not going to communicate as effectively as I would like.

Internet communication makes it very easy to annoy people and set up barriers to their hearing what you are trying to say. If I get the impression that someone is playing games rather than engaging in serious discussion, I’m likely either to lose my temper with them or simply tune them out.

Edwin

Yes, thank you for the advice, Edwin. Still, i do not see you as a snob. I think that if someone were honest enough to tell you she thought you one, you could use the occasion to teach her the truth about you and herself.

For example, you could ask the one who slanders your character if she believes that the devil speaks the truth or lies. She would say lies. You could then ask her if he accuses Catholics fairly or unfairly. She would say unfairly, for he tells lies about them.

You could then ask her if Catholics should, as St. Mary said, “Do whatever he [Jesus] tells you” (John, chapter 2). She would say, yes, of course they should. You could then ask her if she believes Catholics should, as Jesus said

“Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.” (John 7:24)She might hesitate, but finally agree this is the case. You could then ask her how she can be sure she is not judging you by mere appearances but, instead, is making a right judgement.

In other words, you could use her misunderstanding of your motives to teach her the truth about herself and about what Jesus expects of her. She might then see that she, by slandering you, is acting more like the devil than Jesus. God could then turn the evil she intended for you into something good, by bringing her to repentance and helping her see the truth about you.

I suppose the question i ask God when someone wrongs me is, “How should i react?” Often, the words that come to mind are those of Jesus: “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” (Matthew 7:12).

If i was doing what is wrong and did not know it, i would be grateful to the person who pointed this out to me in a kind and respectful, but frank, way. In fact, if she knew i was in the wrong and did not point it out to me, i might see her not as my friend but as my enemy (depending, of course, on how grave the consequences for my actions might be). I believe these words would apply:

Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.(Proverbs 27:6)

 

[RobNY]

Extremely well put, Rob! Although i’m not sure i agree with everything you wrote.

Thank you.

Do you think, then, that rather than seek truth here i should go where people are less hostile to me?

This reminds me of a, ‘did you stop beating your wife?’ question. Hehe.

I don’t think people here are hostile to you. Besides, if you want to champion Socratic method you should be able to defend it as well. Even Socrates dropped out of Socratic method occassionally, so I’m sure it will be no trouble for you.

-Rob

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… This reminds me of a, ‘did you stop beating your wife?’ question. Hehe.

I don’t think people here are hostile to you. Besides, if you want to champion Socratic method you should be able to defend it as well. Even Socrates dropped out of Socratic method occassionally, so I’m sure it will be no trouble for you.

-Rob

Ahhh, i misunderstood. Sorry, i have this naive way of not seeing a slam when someone dises me. So you were not saying that others were being hostile to me but that i was being hostile to others. May i ask, in what way was i being hostile?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’ve read both – frequently.

I might point out that Plato is hardly in inspired writer, and many a pholosopher has concluded that Plato was not so much a student of Socrates as he was a student of Plato – that the “Socrates” in his work is an invented character, not the true man himself.

I

You need to go back and read both Plato and the Gospels.

According to Plato, Socrates died rather than accept exile. According to the Gospels, Jesus died because it was His Father’s will.

The two are in no way comparable – in fact, Jesus could not have chosen Socrates’ death, since Socrates committed suicide, which is a mortal sin.

What is suicide, VH, and what makes it a sin?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Was Eve therefore wise?

Before i could answer the question, i would have to know what you mean by the word wise. For if i do not know what you think wisdom is, how can i know whether she was wise?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Back to the title of the thread. Socratic Method: Good Way to Find Truth?

The answer is, no.

First of all, the Socratic method doesn’t seek truth, it merely seeks to examine beliefs and ideas…

I will let Socrates defend himself against your accusation, VH, for he compares the goal of the philosopher to the goal of everyone else this way:

Evils…can never pass away; for there must always remain something which is antagonistic to good. Having no place among the gods of heaven, of necessity they hover around the mortal nature, and this earthly sphere. Wherefore we ought to fly away from the earth to heaven as quickly as we can; and to fly away is to become like God, as far as this is possible; and to become like Him, is to become holy, just and wise. But, O my friend, you cannot easily convince mankind that they should pursue virtue or avoid vice, not merely in order that a man may seem to be good, which is the reason given by the world, and in my judgement is only a repetition of an old wives’ fable. Whereas, the truth is that God is never in any way unrighteous - He is perfect in righteousness; and he of us who is most righteous is most like Him.
(Theaetetus)
I have a question for you, VH (which, if Socrates were here, he might ask you himself): Do you think that Socrates’ words

Whereas, the truth is that God is never in any way unrighteous - He is perfect in righteousness; and he of us who is most righteous is most like Him.are true or false?

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Socrates4Jesus

I read a little book entitled: “Yiddishe Kop.”

The art of asking questions can be seen as Biblical. I reread St. John’s Gospel after reading the above mentioned book.

There are 135 questions that are asked in that Gospel. It is a hallmark of scholarship to ask questions. No, it is a hallmark of a Biblical authors and students.

“It is what we do not know that gives us light.”

The 135 questions helped me believe that St. John was the author of his named Gospel and that he was a rabbi.

The art of asking questions helps see the light.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates4Jesus

I read a little book entitled: “Yiddishe Kop.”

The art of asking questions can be seen as Biblical. I reread St. John’s Gospel after reading the above mentioned book.

There are 135 questions that are asked in that Gospel. It is a hallmark of scholarship to ask questions. No, it is a hallmark of a Biblical authors and students.

“It is what we do not know that gives us light.”

The 135 questions helped me believe that St. John was the author of his named Gospel and that he was a rabbi.

The art of asking questions helps see the light.

Yes, Jesus did ask some extremely good questions to get people to think. The book you mention sounds like one i would enjoy reading. Thank you, Sully.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I think the ancients would agree-- virtue is very important if we want to find truth. Vices cloud our minds and make us hostile to unpleasant truths.
-Rob

Thanks Rob! I liked this so much that I started a new thread on it:

Philosophy – What’s there? Seeing & reason: Do vices cloud our minds and make us hostile to unpleasant truths?

:tiphat:

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Socrates4Jesus

There is an interesting book you might read, “Yiddishe Kop.”

I think that its subtitle is: Jewish Problem Solving.

The good rabbi yells that we should ask questions in order to solve problems. “It is what we do not know that gives us light,” he says. It clearly teaches that good questions are needed to get to the light.

He yells that it is Biblical to ask lots of questions, Jewish Bible.

After reading his book, I reread the Gospel of St. John. There are about 135 questions in the New American Bible’s translation of St. John’s Gospel. I could not help believe that John the Gospel writer was a Jewish rabbi, the Apostle John. In my opinion, the New Testament was written by Rabbis. One of many signs is the countless questions.

The art of asking questions is a beautiful art.

The or a scientific method is to ask questions, lots of questions.

Oh, it is “Yiddishe Kop (Creative Problem Solving In Jewish Learning, Lore, and Humor),” by Rabbi Nilton Bonder.

I promise that you will love it. You can read it in a day. Your local library will be able to get it for you, or buy it (don’t you just hate common sense suggestions, sorry).

 

[RobNY]

Ahhh, i misunderstood. Sorry, i have this naive way of not seeing a slam when someone dises me. So you were not saying that others were being hostile to me but that i was being hostile to others. May i ask, in what way was i being hostile?

I wasn’t saying you were being hostile to others either. I think you’ve been very pleasant in conversation with everyone here.

-Rob

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I wasn’t saying you were being hostile to others either. I think you’ve been very pleasant in conversation with everyone here.

-Rob

Thanks for saying so, Rob. Sorry if i misunderstood you.

BTW, i love NY (i grew up in upstate NY). We’re heading back home to visit this summer.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates4Jesus

There is an interesting book you might read, “Yiddishe Kop.”

I think that its subtitle is: Jewish Problem Solving.

The good rabbi yells that we should ask questions in order to solve problems. “It is what we do not know that gives us light,” he says. It clearly teaches that good questions are needed to get to the light.

He yells that it is Biblical to ask lots of questions, Jewish Bible.

After reading his book, I reread the Gospel of St. John. There are about 135 questions in the New American Bible’s translation of St. John’s Gospel. I could not help believe that John the Gospel writer was a Jewish rabbi, the Apostle John. In my opinion, the New Testament was written by Rabbis. One of many signs is the countless questions.

The art of asking questions is a beautiful art.

The or a scientific method is to ask questions, lots of questions.

Oh, it is “Yiddishe Kop (Creative Problem Solving In Jewish Learning, Lore, and Humor),” by Rabbi Nilton Bonder.

I promise that you will love it. You can read it in a day. Your local library will be able to get it for you, or buy it (don’t you just hate common sense suggestions, sorry).

Thanks, Sully, i think i will read that book, that is, if i ever have the time.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What is suicide, VH, and what makes it a sin?

It’s usually a product of severe depression or paranoia – one symptom of which is asking questions like this.