Sodom and gommorah same sex what?

[ricmat]

Whenever the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is mentioned in scripture, it is in reference to inhospitality. Nowhere, including the reference in the gospels (Mt 10) does it refer to homosexual behavior. Lack of hospitality or breaking the protection inherent to hospitality is a grave sin in Old Testament theology. Homosexual activity on the other hand is looked upon as ritually unclean just as a woman is ritually unclean during her period. Not the same thing at all.

Matthew

Well, sorry. But the first time the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is mentioned in scripture is right in Genesis in the same chapter in which they are destroyed.

God hears an outcry against these cities and sends angels to check things out. What do they find?

They find a great deal of hospitality - Genesis 19:2. Nothing lacking here. But what happens next? Ah…attempted homosexual rape. Then the angels tell Lot and his family to flee, because God will destroy the cities.

This looks quite clear to me.

Now, is it possible that Sodom and Gomorrah had other problems? Yes, that’s quite possible.

But in terms of what is in scripture, right there in the same chapter as the destruction of the cities, it is the specific instance of homosexuality that incites God’s actions.

The first sacrament and covenant sign was marriage (male and female). And from Genesis 2 onward sexual sins of any type (maternal incest - Ham), paternal incest (Lot), taking multiple wives (Abraham & others) always leads to personal destruction and tribal or national destruction.

Yes, God punishes us for our sins of social justice but he really punishes us for sins against the proper use of our sexuality.

 

[truagape]

But what happens next? Ah…attempted homosexual rape.

What a glaring example of oversight! The ONLY attemped “homosexual rape” in the OT occurs in the book of Judges. Judges 19:22. The account in Genesis does not involve an attempted attack on male mortals, but rather against God’s warning messengers: angels.

 

[ricmat]

What a glaring example of oversight! The ONLY attemped “homosexual rape” in the OT occurs in the book of Judges. Judges 19:22. The account in Genesis does not involve an attempted attack on male mortals, but rather against God’s warning messengers: angels.

But they didn’t know they were angels at the time. They thought they were human, and were doing exactly what they already were doing to other male humans…

 

[truagape]

But they didn’t know they were angels at the time.

Does that change the fact that they were not male mortals? An “attempted homosexual rape” as you termed it does not involve angels, regardless of what the mob may have thought.

 

[truagape]

They thought they were human, and were doing exactly what they already were doing to other male humans…

How do you substantiate this claim? According to Genesis 19:9 the mob responds angrily to Lot, “Now we will deal worse with you than with them (the angels).” Would you imply that this is the point within Lot’s interactions with Sodom and Gomorrah that the mob finally decides to come on to him?

 

[rlg94086]

How do you substantiate this claim? According to Genesis 19:9 the mob responds angrily to Lot, “Now we will deal worse with you than with them (the angels).” Would you imply that this is the point within Lot’s interactions with Sodom and Gomorrah that the mob finally decides to come on to him?

With the Bible…the verses before the one you quoted.
Genesis 19:4-8:

4 Before they went to bed, all thetownsmen of Sodom, both young and old–all the people to the last man–closed in on the house. 5 They called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intimacies with them." 6 Lot went out to meet them at the entrance. When he had shut the door behind him, 7 he said, “I beg you, my brothers, not to do this wicked thing. 8 I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with men. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please. But don’t do anything to these men, for you know they have come under the shelter of my roof.”

Seems simple enough. The word “them” in Gen 19:9 refers to the “men” in the previous verses.

 

[Nita]

I think you would agree that it is not my position that matters. In regards to you referencing Genesis chapter 19 to support your “Synn of Sodom” reasoning as being that of homosexuality; that warrants some simple yet obvious questioning. Honest questions that help put the biblical ciatations you posted in the context and setting inwhich it was originally written. I do intend on asking those questions within this forum…Agenda? So be it! seeking the truth shouldn’t inflict paranoia.

The earliest documents that reference the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are found…(drum roll please) IN THE BIBLE! God himself without pulling any punches provides the first commentary on the reason behind the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. God’s thoughts are recorded trhough the prophet of Ezekiel. My position should be God’s. And in qoting scripture, here is His position:

Ezekiel 16:47-50 (English Standard Version)
47) Not only did you walk in their (Sodom) ways and do according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. 48) As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. 49) Behold this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daugters had pride, excess of food, and prosporus ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50) They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

Please note it was what they “did” that was an abomination to God.
This is what they “did”:

**Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; 19:5 and they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”
19:9 But they said, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door. **

They demanded and sought to take forcibly two men for homosexual purposes. That is what they “did”, and it was an abomination to God. God repeats His view of such activity again in His instruction to Israel:

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (also Lev 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 7)

Nita

 

[Nita]

Does that change the fact that they were not male mortals? An “attempted homosexual rape” as you termed it does not involve angels, regardless of what the mob may have thought.

It appears God also considers it an abomination to attempt to rape two angels that have the form of two men.

Nita

 

[rlg94086]

I think you would agree that it is not my position that matters. In regards to you referencing Genesis chapter 19 to support your “Synn of Sodom” reasoning as being that of homosexuality; that warrants some simple yet obvious questioning. Honest questions that help put the biblical ciatations you posted in the context and setting inwhich it was originally written. I do intend on asking those questions within this forum…Agenda? So be it! seeking the truth shouldn’t inflict paranoia.

The earliest documents that reference the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are found…(drum roll please) IN THE BIBLE! God himself without pulling any punches provides the first commentary on the reason behind the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. God’s thoughts are recorded trhough the prophet of Ezekiel. My position should be God’s. And in qoting scripture, here is His position:

Ezekiel 16:47-50 (English Standard Version)
**47) Not only did you walk in their (Sodom) ways and do according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. 48) As I live, declares the Lord God, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. 49) Behold this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daugters had pride, excess of food, and prosporus ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50) They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it. **

Yes, that is correct. In fact, the attempted homosexual rape incident happens after God has already told Abraham that he was going to destroy Sodom and Gommorah.

Now, what does this do to the condemnation against homosexual acts based on the Bible? Absolutely nothing. Sodom and Gommorah is just one incidence. One has to do a lot of torturous eisegesis to try to show homosexual acts are not condemned.

 

[truagape]

Please note it was what they “did” that was an abomination to God.
This is what they “did”:

**Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; 19:5 and they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”
19:9 But they said, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door. **

They demanded and sought to take forcibly two men for homosexual purposes. That is what they “did”, and it was an abomination to God. God repeats His view of such activity again in His instruction to Israel:

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (also Lev 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 7)

Nita

Did?
You quoted Lev 18:22 to proclaim an example of an abomination. Where in the Sodom and Gomorrah story is this act performed?

 

[truagape]

Seems simple enough. The word “them” in Gen 19:9 refers to the “men” in the previous verses.

you may want to re-read Gen 19:9.

 

[truagape]

Yes, that is correct. In fact, the attempted homosexual rape incident happens after God has already told Abraham that he was going to destroy Sodom and Gommorah.

Once again, these were angels that were being threatened, not mortal men! Using the term “homosexual rape” is misleading and incorrect to say the least.

 

[ricmat]

Truagape -

Are you saying that attempted rape is not really attempted rape because the rapees were angels and not really men?

So let’s say you’re mad at your boss. You charge into his office with a machine gun, bullets spraying in every direction, but find out that you only kill his secretary instead.

“Well Judge, it’s not attempted murder because I ended up shooting the secretary instead.”

Come on!!

 

[Nita]

did?
You quoted Lev 18:22 to proclaim an example of an abomination. Where in the Sodom and Gomorrah story is this act performed?

Attempting seems to be as big an abomination as actually being able to carry it out.

Sort of like:
Mt 5:28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

 

[truagape]

Truagape -

Are you saying that attempted rape is not really attempted rape because the rapees were angels and not really men?

If the attempted rape is with men as in Judges 19:22. Then one could say that it is an “attempted homosexual rape.”

If it is with angels the fact remains that there is nothing homosexual about the rape.

 

[truagape]

Attempting seems to be as big an abomination as actually being able to carry it out.

Sort of like:
Mt 5:28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So are you saying that the “abominidable act” you quoted from Levticus isn’t performed by the mob in the Genesis account?

 

[ricmat]

If the attempted rape is with men as in Judges 19:22. Then one could say that it is an “attempted homosexual rape.”

If it is with angels the fact remains that there is nothing homosexual about the rape.

Gee whiz. The footnote in the NAB for Judges 19:22 says “who were corrupt” - literally “sons of Belial” indicating extreme perversion; cf Gn 19:4-8.

 

[rlg94086]

you may want to re-read Gen 19:9.

You may want to re-read Gen 19:4-9 again. There! Two can play at that game.
from the NAB:

4
Before they went to bed, all the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old–all the people to the last man–closed in on the house. 5 They called to Lot and said to him, “Where are** the men** who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intimacies with them.” 6 Lot went out to meet them at the entrance. When he had shut the door behind him, 7 he said, “I beg you, my brothers, not to do this wicked thing. 8 I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with men. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please. But don’t do anything to these men, for you know they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 They replied, “Stand back! This fellow,” they sneered, “came here as an immigrant, and now he dares to give orders! We’ll treat you worse than them!” With that, they pressed hard against Lot, moving in closer to break down the door.

4: But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6: And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7: And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8: Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9: And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the **men **who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” 9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. And they said, “This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

You are making a silly distinction. I noticed when you quoted Gen 19:9 that you included “(the angels)”, as if that parenthetical addition was important. As you can see from all three of the translations above, there is no insert of “(the angels)”, so it is probably just an addition made by the translater you happen to like.

 

[rlg94086]

Once again, these were angels that were being threatened, not mortal men! Using the term “homosexual rape” is misleading and incorrect to say the least.

Since there is no evidence the Sodomites knew they were angels, it was attempted homosexual rape. You are playing verbal gymnastics, and it just makes you look silly.

 

[truagape]

You may want to re-read Gen 19:4-9 again. There! Two can play at that game.

You are making a silly distinction. I noticed when you quoted Gen 19:9 that you included “(the angels)”, as if that parenthetical addition was important. As you can see from all three of the translations above, there is no insert of “(the angels)”, so it is probably just an addition made by the translater you happen to like.

So are you actually suggesting that the term “them” in Gen 19:9 isn’t referring to the angels that lot was trying to protect?