T
truagape
Guest
13th century…now that’s interesting!
- Status
T
truagape
Guest
And what about the original Greek and Hebrew words for “Sodom” and “Gomorrah”, do they go back further than the 13th century?
S
surfinpure
Guest
I’ll bump up your thread here, so the discussion can move off the other one. 
M
Mea_Culpa
Guest
Sodom and Gomorrah is a warning about the evils of depravity, especially homosexual lust. You can try to muddy the waters all you want, that doesn’t change the meaning of the story, or of the words sodomite, sodomy, and what people mean when the compare San Francisco to Sodom and Gomorrah. I don’t care what the Metropolitan Community Church says. truagape is not here to discuss Catholicism or to learn about Catholicism, he’s here to push the homosexual agenda.
R
ricko
Guest
Notice what’s going on here. The strangers had been shown hospitality by Lot and his family (vv. 1-3). The townsmen didn’t cry out to Lot that they wanted to be “inhospitable” to the visitors, but that they wanted to have intercourse with them, which is something markedly different. Lot attempts to quell the mob by offering them his two virgin daughters, suspecting that because these men were homosexuals they would refuse. The entire account revolves around a single sin: homosexuality.
While it’s true that later Old Testament prophets pointed out other sins the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of (Is. 1:9-20, 3:9, Ezek. 16:46-51, Jer. 23:14), it’s clear that the primary sin, the sin which provoked God’s wrath, was homosexuality.
If you examine the Old Testament passages in which God outlines the sins which would merit the death penalty under the Mosaic Law (Lev. 20:27, 24:10-23; Deut. 13:5-10, 21:18-21, 22:21-24), you’ll see that homosexuality was condemned alongside such crimes as murder, idolatry, and blasphemy (Lev. 20:13). Search as you might, **you won’t find the Lord meting out the death penalty to persons guilty of inhospitality. **
New Advent Quick Questions
Homosexuality is a sin, the bible makes it very clear but a sinner is not likely to admit that.
While it’s true that later Old Testament prophets pointed out other sins the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of (Is. 1:9-20, 3:9, Ezek. 16:46-51, Jer. 23:14), it’s clear that the primary sin, the sin which provoked God’s wrath, was homosexuality.
If you examine the Old Testament passages in which God outlines the sins which would merit the death penalty under the Mosaic Law (Lev. 20:27, 24:10-23; Deut. 13:5-10, 21:18-21, 22:21-24), you’ll see that homosexuality was condemned alongside such crimes as murder, idolatry, and blasphemy (Lev. 20:13). Search as you might, **you won’t find the Lord meting out the death penalty to persons guilty of inhospitality. **
New Advent Quick Questions
Homosexuality is a sin, the bible makes it very clear but a sinner is not likely to admit that.
T
truagape
Guest
Thanks for responding to this thread. It’s about time (9 months!) Oh and ricko, buddy you are so off base it’s almost amusing. Almost! That is until I think about the countless number of individuals whose lives have been devastated by such blatant lies.
Mea Culpa, your willingness to gravitate towards generalites already convicts you, among other things. However, when you finally decide to come to terms with the details of your faulty position, then the devil behind your fascade will become evident to you. In fact, I have no doubt that it already has. But in an effort to try and protect such “theological lies”, you avoid the scriptural details at all costs. Well, that’s your dishonest choice. In the meantime, I hope that everyone who views these forums, will take note of your actions, or lack there of.
Now how about responding to post # 82 instead of ignoring the obvious.
Mea Culpa, your willingness to gravitate towards generalites already convicts you, among other things. However, when you finally decide to come to terms with the details of your faulty position, then the devil behind your fascade will become evident to you. In fact, I have no doubt that it already has. But in an effort to try and protect such “theological lies”, you avoid the scriptural details at all costs. Well, that’s your dishonest choice. In the meantime, I hope that everyone who views these forums, will take note of your actions, or lack there of.
Now how about responding to post # 82 instead of ignoring the obvious.
M
Mea_Culpa
Guest
Of course I won’t be drawn into one of your little games. The truth about homosexuality is clearly and infallibly spelled out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I will quote the truth here for you. It’s up to you to accept or reject it. I will not debate it, but I will pray for you.
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, 141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” 142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
These are the texts from Sacred Scripture referenced in the Catechism.
141 Cf. Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; I Cor 6:10; I Tim 1:10.
CITED TEXT:
Genesis 19:1-29
The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth, and said, “My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the street.” But he urged them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; and they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” But they said, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door. But the men put forth their hands and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door. And they struck with the blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves groping for the door.
Then the men said to Lot, “Have you any one else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or any one you have in the city, bring them out of the place; for we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.” So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, “Up, get out of this place; for the Lord is about to destroy the city.” But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting.
When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” But he lingered; so the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him forth and set him outside the city. And when they had brought them forth, they said, “Flee for your life; do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley; flee to the hills, lest you be consumed.” And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords; behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life; but I cannot flee to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me, and I die. Behold, yonder city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there—is it not a little one?—and my life will be saved!” He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. Make haste, escape there; for I can do nothing till you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar.
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; and he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. But Lot’s wife behind him looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the Lord; and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and beheld, and lo, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace.
So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt.
Romans 1:24-27
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they ex changed the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdome of God? Do not be deceived: neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:10
immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine.
T
truagape
Guest
Please do pray for me. And I will do the same for you.
P.S. Why won’t you answer my question as posted in post # 82?
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Truagape, you still don’t get it do you? You are trying very hard to jump through every hoop you can to justify a gravely disordered sin. You are trying to peddle your own private interpretation of scripture over the Church’s infallible teaching that comes to us from The Apostles. You are trying to seduce men to come to bed with you in your own ideas for your own disordered purposes and agenda. Listen to what the apostles teach - it is very clear:Please do pray for me. And I will do the same for you.
P.S. Why won’t you answer my question as posted in post # 82?
Scriptural denouncement of homosexual practises as disordered:
- Gen. 1 & 2 - we see from the beginning that the complimentarity of the sexes reflects God’s inner unity and His creative power and Fatherhood. God created man and woman to become one flesh which is consummated in the act of marital love.
- Gen. 2:18 – throughout the creation story, God says “it is good” seven times. But when God pointed out that man was alone, God says “it is not good.” God then created woman - he did not create another man to be man’s intimate partner. Man and woman therefore belong together by God’s design, according to His natural and supernatural law.
- Gen. 2:24 – God created man and woman so that they could share communion. This communion is consummated in the marital act (which must be between a man and a woman). This communion is also a reflection of the eternal communion of the Blessed Trinity, who created man in His own image and likeness.
- Gen. 19:24-28 - the Lord rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah as punishment for the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuality perverts God’s covenant with humanity.
- Gen 13:13; 18:20: while homosexuals argue that the sin in Genesis 19 was the sin of “inhospitality,” these verses show that the Sodomites were evil and wicked people before the alleged sin of inhospitality. That is because the Sodomites were guilty of homosexuality, not inhospitality. In fact, 2 Pet 2:6:8 says that Lot witnessed their evil sexual practices “day after day.” The Sodomites’ sin was daily and pervasive.
- Gen 19:5: this confirms that the Sodomites’ sin is homosexuality. Here, the Sodomites mistaken the two angels for men and, surrounding Lot’s house, ask to have sex with them. When the yell to Lot “bring them out that we may know them,” the Hebrew for “to know” (yadah) in Gen 19:5 means having sexual relations. See, for example, Gen 4:25 where “yadah” refers to sexual relations between Adam and Eve.
- 2 Pet 2:6-10: Peter also proves that the Sodomites were guilty of homosexuality. He says God condemned them for “licentiousness” and “lust of defiling passion,” which is where we get the title “Sodomite” for a homosexual. The Greek “aselgeia anastrophes” for lustful behavior is also found in Rom 13:13; Gal 5:19; Eph 4:19 and Jude 4.
- Jude 7: Jude also confirms the Sodomites’ sin is homosexuality. Jude says they “indulged in unnatural lust” (Greek, ekporneusasai) and went after “strange flesh” (Greek, sarkos heteras) in reference to their homosexual sins.
- 2 Peter 2:4-6: Peter also reveals that the Sodomites are suffering in hell for their sins by comparing the Sodomites’ punishment to the eternal punishment of the evil angels. Just as God did not spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into hell, so He did the same with the Sodomites when He “condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly.”
- Jude 5-7: Like Peter, Jude confirms that the Sodomites are in hell by saying that they had the same fate as the evil angels. Jude says just as the evil angels were condemned to hell, the Sodomites “likewise” (Greek, hos) acted immorally and are undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. “Undergoing” (Greek, upechousai) is a present participle which means their suffering is ongoing. See also the clear polarity between those who are saved (v.5) and those who are condemned (vv. 6-7,11,13).
- Lev. 18:22, 29 - God commands a man never to lie with a male as with a female, or he will be cut off. This refers to supernatural death which is eternal separation from God. While the Old Covenant laws have been abrogated by the New Covenant, the Church has adopted their moral principles. Thus, the moral prohibitions on homosexuality still apply in the New Covenant, as Peter, Paul and Jude demonstrate.
- Lev. 20:13 - God says that if a man lies with another man, he shall be put to death. From the very beginning, God has revealed that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, unhealthy, and mortally sinful.
- Deut. 22:5 - cross-dressing is also considered an abomination before God.
- Matt. 19:6 - after referring to God’s divine plan for man and woman, Jesus says a husband and wife become one flesh, which ultimately reflects God’s union with humanity through the Church. Homosexual unions pervert this divine truth of God’s love for and union with the human race.
- Rom. 1:26 - also, when a woman lies with another women (lesbianism), this is unnatural and a perversion. God wants His children to be pure and holy as He is holy. Paul condemns all homosexual acts, whether committed by men or women.
- Rom. 1:27 – Paul calls the practice of homosexuality shameless, unnatural and a perversity. It is contrary to the natural law, as it eviscerates the life-giving aspect of human sexuality and reduces it to a selfish, pleasure-seeking end.
- 1 Cor 6:9: Paul teaches that sodomites will not enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for “sodomite” (arsenokoites) literally means “male copulation” or “male sexual relations.” The Greek “arsen” means “male” and “koites” means “coitus” or “sexual relations.” Paul uses the same word in 1 Tim 1:10.
- 1 Tim. 1:10 - sodomites are called ungodly and sinners, unholy and profane, lawless and disobedient. They are called by God to chastity. It is important to note that homosexual attractions and inclinations, while disordered and dangerous, are not by themselves sinful per se. It is the acting out on homosexual attraction that is sinful. Those with homosexual desires can still live a life worthy of Christ by remaining chaste and pure as they abstain from acting out on their desires
More here: scripturecatholic.com/homosexuality.html
James
T
truagape
Guest
I won’t even begin to address your sad mistaken usage of the term “sodomite”. Your answer to question # 82 (should you finally decide to give it), will do that for me. History well recognizes the tornado of Tradition and deception packed within that man-made term. And to make matters worse you have the audacity to infect the Word of God in more place than one with it. How unscriptural and dishonest!
And since you referenced the “Church Fathers”, how about confirming my point by providing all the references of the “Church Fathers” that used “arsenokoites”, in regards to homosexuality (found in 1. Cor. 6:9). It is, after all, the same scripture “Christians”, attempt to use today. So please, go ahead and show me just one “Church Father” that did the same.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
I gave you about a dozen or more scriptural references that utterly reject homosexuality and you have the unmitigated gall to say that that NONE OF THESE refer to homosexuality and unnatural sexual practices!? You HAVE ZERO credibility.
Further, who ARE YOU to tell us what specific word forms must be present in the scriptures to make it clearer that these verses were not speaking of homosexuality? It is EXTREMELY clear to anyone with a straight conscience and a shred of remaining honesty in them that God rejects as utterly sinful ALL homosexual sexual unions and will exact EXTREMELY GRAVE punishment on these individuals and societies that promote them.
Here from the same original soure are some teachings of the Church Fathers that further clarify the ABSURDITY of your twisted beliefs.
*You shall not commit fornication; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not be a corrupter of youth." Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).
“You shall not be a corrupter of boys, nor like unto such.” Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).
“You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill one that has been born.” Didache 2:2 (A.D. 90).
“[W]e have been taught that to expose newly-born children is the part of wicked men; and this we have been taught lest we should do anyone harm and lest we should sin against God, first, because we see that almost all so exposed (not only the girls, but also the males) are brought up to prostitution. And for this pollution a multitude of females and hermaphrodites, and those who commit unmentionable iniquities, are found in every nation. And you receive the hire of these, and duty and taxes from them, whom you ought to exterminate from your realm. And any one who uses such persons, besides the godless and infamous and impure intercourse, may possibly be having intercourse with his own child, or relative, or brother. And there are some who prostitute even their own children and wives, and some are openly mutilated for the purpose of sodomy; and they refer these mysteries to the mother of the gods.” Justin Martyr, First Apology 27 (A.D. 151).
“All honor to that king of the Scythians, whoever Anacharsis was, who shot with an arrow one of his subjects who imitated among the Scythians the mystery of the mother of the gods . . . condemning him as having become effeminate among the Greeks, and a teacher of the disease of effeminacy to the rest of the Scythians.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).
“[According to Greek myth] Baubo [a female native of Elusis] having received [the goddess] Demeter hospitably, reached to her a refreshing draught; and on her refusing it, not having any inclination to drink (for she was very sad), and Baubo having become annoyed, thinking herself slighted, uncovered her shame, and exhibited her nudity to the goddess. Demeter is delighted with the sight–pleased, I repeat, at the spectacle. These are the secret mysteries of the Athenians; these Orpheus records.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).
“It is not, then, without reason that the poets call him [Hercules] a cruel wretch and a nefarious scoundrel. It were tedious to recount his adulteries of all sorts, and debauching of boys. For your gods did not even abstain from boys, one having loved Hylas, another Hyacinthus, another Pelops, another Chrysippus, another Ganymede. Let such gods as these be worshipped by your wives, and let them pray that their husbands be such as these–so temperate; that, emulating them in the same practices, they may be like the gods. Such gods let your boys be trained to worship, that they may grow up to be men with the accursed likeness of fornication on them received from the gods.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).
“[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities.” Tertullian, Modesty 4 (A.D. 220).
“[God forbid the Jews to eat certain foods for symbolic reasons:] For that in fishes the roughness of scales is regarded as constituting their cleanness; rough, and rugged, and unpolished, and substantial, and grave manners are approved in men; while those that are without scales are unclean, because trifling, and fickle, and faithless, and effeminate manners are disapproved. Moreover, what does the Law mean when it…forbids the swine to be taken for food? It assuredly reproves a life filthy and dirty, and delighting in the garbage of vice…Or when it forbids the hare? It rebukes men deformed into women.” Novatian, The Jewish Foods 3 (A.D. 250).
“[T]urn your looks to the abominations, not less to be deplored, of another kind of spectacle…Men are emasculated, and all the pride and vigor of their sex is effeminated in the disgrace of their enervated body; and he is more pleasing there who has most completely broken down the man into the woman. He grows into praise by virtue of his crime; and the more he is degraded, the more skillful he is considered to be. Such a one is looked upon–oh shame!–and looked upon with pleasure…nor is there wanting authority for the enticing abomination…that Jupiter of theirs [is] not more supreme in dominion than in vice, inflamed with earthly love in the midst of his own thunders…now breaking forth by the help of birds to violate the purity of boys. And now put the question: Can he who looks upon such things be healthy-minded or modest? Men imitate the gods whom they adore, and to such miserable beings their crimes become their religion.” Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:8 (A.D. 253).
“Oh, if placed on that lofty watch-tower, you could gaze into the secret places–if you could open the closed doors of sleeping chambers and recall their dark recesses to the perception of sight–you would behold things done by immodest persons which no chaste eye could look upon; you would see what even to see is a crime; you would see what people embruted with the madness of vice deny that they have done, and yet hasten to do–men with frenzied lusts rushing upon men, doing things which afford no gratification even to those who do them.” Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:9 (A.D. 253).
*
[continued]
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
[CONTINUED - CHURCH FATHERS AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY PART II]
*
“[T]he mother of the gods loved [the boy Attis] exceedingly, because he was of most surpassing beauty; and Acdestis [the son of Jupiter] who was his companion, as he grew up fondling him, and bound to him by wicked compliance with his lust…Afterwards, under the influence of wine, he [Attis] admits that he is…loved by Acdestis…Then Midas, king of Pessinus, wishing to withdraw the youth from so disgraceful an intimacy, resolves to give him his own daughter in marriage…Acdestis, bursting with rage because of the boy’s being torn from himself and brought to seek a wife, fills all the guests with frenzied madness; the Phrygians shriek, panic-stricken at the appearance of the gods . . . [Attis] too, now filled with furious passion, raving frantically and tossed about, throws himself down at last, and under a pine tree mutilates himself, saying, `Take these, Acdestis, for which you have stirred up so great and terribly perilous commotions.’” Arnobius, Against the Pagans 5:6-7 (A.D. 305).
“[H]aving forbidden all unlawful marriage, and all unseemly practice, and the union of women with women and men with men, he [God] adds: `Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations were defiled, which I will drive out before you. And the land was polluted, and I have recompensed [their] iniquity upon it, and the land is grieved with them that dwell upon it’ [Lev. 18:24-25].” Eusebius of Caesarea, Proof of the Gospel 4:10 (A.D. 319).
“He who is guilty of unseemliness with males will be under discipline for the same time as adulterers.” Basil the Great, Letters 217:62 (A.D. 367).
“If you [O, monk] are young in either body or mind, shun the companionship of other young men and avoid them as you would a flame. For through them the enemy has kindled the desires of many and then handed them over to eternal fire, hurling them into the vile pit of the five cities under the pretense of spiritual love. At meals take a seat far from other young men. In lying down to sleep let not their clothes be near yours, but rather have an old man between you. When a young man converses with you, or sings psalms facing you, answer him with eyes cast down, lest perhaps by gazing at his face you receive a seed of desire sown by the enemy and reap sheaves of corruption and ruin. Whether in the house or in a place where there is no one to see your actions, be not found in his company under the pretense either of studying the divine oracles or of any other business whatsoever, however necessary.” Basil the Great, The Renunciation of the World (A.D. 373).
“[The pagans] were addicted to the love of boys, and one of their wise men made a law that pederasty…should not be allowed to slaves, as if it was an honorable thing; and they had houses for this purpose, in which it was openly practiced. And if all that was done among them was related, it would be seen that they openly outraged nature, and there was none to restrain them… As for their passion for boys, whom they called their ‘paedica,’ it is not fit to be named.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Titus 5 (A.D. 390]).
“[Certain men in church] come in gazing about at the beauty of women; others curious about the blooming youth of boys. After this, do you not marvel that [lightning] bolts are not launched [from heaven], and all these things are not plucked up from their foundations? For worthy both of thunderbolts and hell are the things that are done; but God, who is long-suffering, and of great mercy, forbears awhile his wrath, calling you to repentance and amendment.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 3:3 (A.D. 391).
“All of these affections [in Rom. 1:26-27]… were vile, but chiefly the mad lust after males; for the soul is more the sufferer in sins, and more dishonored than the body in diseases.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).
“[The men] have done an insult to nature itself. And a yet more disgraceful thing than these is it, when even the women seek after these intercourses, who ought to have more shame than men.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).
“And sundry other books of the philosophers one may see full of this disease. But we do not therefore say that the thing was made lawful, but that they who received this law were pitiable, and objects for many tears. For these are treated in the same way as women that play the whore. Or rather their plight is more miserable. For in the case of the one the intercourse, even if lawless, is yet according to nature; but this is contrary both to law and nature. For even if there were no hell, and no punishment had been threatened, this would be worse than any punishment.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).
“[T]hose shameful acts against nature, such as were committed in Sodom, ought everywhere and always to be detested and punished. If all nations were to do such things, they would be held guilty of the same crime by the law of God, which has not made men so that they should use one another in this way.” Augustine, Confessions 3:8:15 (A.D. 400).
“[Christians] abhor all unlawful mixtures, and that which is practiced by some contrary to nature, as wicked and impious.” Apostolic Constitutions 6:11 (A.D. 400). *
James
*
“[T]he mother of the gods loved [the boy Attis] exceedingly, because he was of most surpassing beauty; and Acdestis [the son of Jupiter] who was his companion, as he grew up fondling him, and bound to him by wicked compliance with his lust…Afterwards, under the influence of wine, he [Attis] admits that he is…loved by Acdestis…Then Midas, king of Pessinus, wishing to withdraw the youth from so disgraceful an intimacy, resolves to give him his own daughter in marriage…Acdestis, bursting with rage because of the boy’s being torn from himself and brought to seek a wife, fills all the guests with frenzied madness; the Phrygians shriek, panic-stricken at the appearance of the gods . . . [Attis] too, now filled with furious passion, raving frantically and tossed about, throws himself down at last, and under a pine tree mutilates himself, saying, `Take these, Acdestis, for which you have stirred up so great and terribly perilous commotions.’” Arnobius, Against the Pagans 5:6-7 (A.D. 305).
“[H]aving forbidden all unlawful marriage, and all unseemly practice, and the union of women with women and men with men, he [God] adds: `Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations were defiled, which I will drive out before you. And the land was polluted, and I have recompensed [their] iniquity upon it, and the land is grieved with them that dwell upon it’ [Lev. 18:24-25].” Eusebius of Caesarea, Proof of the Gospel 4:10 (A.D. 319).
“He who is guilty of unseemliness with males will be under discipline for the same time as adulterers.” Basil the Great, Letters 217:62 (A.D. 367).
“If you [O, monk] are young in either body or mind, shun the companionship of other young men and avoid them as you would a flame. For through them the enemy has kindled the desires of many and then handed them over to eternal fire, hurling them into the vile pit of the five cities under the pretense of spiritual love. At meals take a seat far from other young men. In lying down to sleep let not their clothes be near yours, but rather have an old man between you. When a young man converses with you, or sings psalms facing you, answer him with eyes cast down, lest perhaps by gazing at his face you receive a seed of desire sown by the enemy and reap sheaves of corruption and ruin. Whether in the house or in a place where there is no one to see your actions, be not found in his company under the pretense either of studying the divine oracles or of any other business whatsoever, however necessary.” Basil the Great, The Renunciation of the World (A.D. 373).
“[The pagans] were addicted to the love of boys, and one of their wise men made a law that pederasty…should not be allowed to slaves, as if it was an honorable thing; and they had houses for this purpose, in which it was openly practiced. And if all that was done among them was related, it would be seen that they openly outraged nature, and there was none to restrain them… As for their passion for boys, whom they called their ‘paedica,’ it is not fit to be named.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Titus 5 (A.D. 390]).
“[Certain men in church] come in gazing about at the beauty of women; others curious about the blooming youth of boys. After this, do you not marvel that [lightning] bolts are not launched [from heaven], and all these things are not plucked up from their foundations? For worthy both of thunderbolts and hell are the things that are done; but God, who is long-suffering, and of great mercy, forbears awhile his wrath, calling you to repentance and amendment.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 3:3 (A.D. 391).
“All of these affections [in Rom. 1:26-27]… were vile, but chiefly the mad lust after males; for the soul is more the sufferer in sins, and more dishonored than the body in diseases.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).
“[The men] have done an insult to nature itself. And a yet more disgraceful thing than these is it, when even the women seek after these intercourses, who ought to have more shame than men.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).
“And sundry other books of the philosophers one may see full of this disease. But we do not therefore say that the thing was made lawful, but that they who received this law were pitiable, and objects for many tears. For these are treated in the same way as women that play the whore. Or rather their plight is more miserable. For in the case of the one the intercourse, even if lawless, is yet according to nature; but this is contrary both to law and nature. For even if there were no hell, and no punishment had been threatened, this would be worse than any punishment.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 4 (A.D. 391).
“[T]hose shameful acts against nature, such as were committed in Sodom, ought everywhere and always to be detested and punished. If all nations were to do such things, they would be held guilty of the same crime by the law of God, which has not made men so that they should use one another in this way.” Augustine, Confessions 3:8:15 (A.D. 400).
“[Christians] abhor all unlawful mixtures, and that which is practiced by some contrary to nature, as wicked and impious.” Apostolic Constitutions 6:11 (A.D. 400). *
James
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truagape
Guest
P.S. And your last statement (in bold), you aught to be ashamed! Many Christians who’ve learn of their own “homosexuality,” who’ve been taught all the lies within your post by their valued “religious authorities”, have at one point been reduced to a fetal position, in a corner in tears (and that’s on a good day!). Right after you’ve dishonestly, ripped apart a major element of their existence which encompasses certain individuals, you have the nerve to offer “light” the size of a pinhole! Yet you wouldn’t have to resort to such pathetic measures of “clean-up” if you only would have told the scriptural truths from the beginning!
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Oh be gone with your utter nonsense trauagape. You act as though proclivities to homosexual unions are more intense than a man feels for a woman or a woman for a man. Grow up and be a man and get a grip on your self dignity and be honest with yourself as well.
We are ALL called to chastity both in single life and in natural marriage unions. How dare you call me dishonest for posting dozens of literal scriptural references and as many teachings of the ECF. You whine and foam at the mouth because deep down you know your own judgement is corrupted and no matter how much you try to wriggle and squirm your way around the truth you can’t can you?
You need to be honest with yourself, find humility and break your pride if you ever want to escape from what it is that has its claws deep into you. Prayer, grace and breaking your pride is your only option. I’d start today if I were you.
James
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truagape
Guest
Perhaps you misunderstood the question: Out of everything you just posted, which “Church Father” used the word “arsenokoites”, found in 1. Cor. 6:9, like “Christians” do today, to reference homosexuality?
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truagape
Guest
Honesty??? How about “honestly” telling everyone on these forums, where the original Greek or Hebrew ever uses the unscriptural term of “sodomite”!
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Starwynd
Guest
No, you stop trying your damndest to justify your deviant homosexual behavior. The Bible is very clear on the matter, no matter how many semantic tricks, no matter how much you bury it with rationality, so you sir, can just shove it.
Homosexuality is a cleary deviant behavior, and deviants never under any circumstances see their behavior as deviant. This goes for child molestors as well as genocidal egalomaniacs as well as murderers and rapists, and will use everything they can to justify their deviant behavior, even when it is perfectly clear that their behavior is deviant and immoral.
No matter how many times the truth has been shown to you, you will never see yourself as a deviant. We are not interested in your homosexual behavior here. We are not interested in your tricks and justifications.
**THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE BIBLE NO MATTER WHAT TRICKS YOU PULL OUT YOUR SLEEVE TO JUSTIFY YOUR DAMNDED DEVIANT BEHAVIOR!
**
So shove that utter ****.
I am so sick and tired of you deviants doing your best to normalise your deviant behavior when it is not normal, it is not natural, it is immoral and deviant ****.
You can not justify it when the Bible is perfectly clear as have been shown to you.
Nobody here is interested in you shoving your justifications in our faces for your devianct behavior.
Homosexuality is a cleary deviant behavior, and deviants never under any circumstances see their behavior as deviant. This goes for child molestors as well as genocidal egalomaniacs as well as murderers and rapists, and will use everything they can to justify their deviant behavior, even when it is perfectly clear that their behavior is deviant and immoral.
No matter how many times the truth has been shown to you, you will never see yourself as a deviant. We are not interested in your homosexual behavior here. We are not interested in your tricks and justifications.
**THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE BIBLE NO MATTER WHAT TRICKS YOU PULL OUT YOUR SLEEVE TO JUSTIFY YOUR DAMNDED DEVIANT BEHAVIOR!
**
So shove that utter ****.
I am so sick and tired of you deviants doing your best to normalise your deviant behavior when it is not normal, it is not natural, it is immoral and deviant ****.
You can not justify it when the Bible is perfectly clear as have been shown to you.
Nobody here is interested in you shoving your justifications in our faces for your devianct behavior.
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truagape
Guest
You most certainly did! And it’s easy to see why you perfer such a “biased interpretation”. However, I’m not interested in the translation you provided. All one has to do is compare it to the original Greek and Hebrew, to bring to the surface that which isn’t true. And that’s what you, for obvious reasons, are unwilling to do!
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truagape
Guest
I am not interested in your personal rants or opinions. I am only interested in the scriptural facts as preserved within the content and context of scripture. All Christians should be. It’s obvious that you do not hold such an interest, and for obvious reasons!
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truagape
Guest
Are you kidding!? I’m not telling you anything in regards to “what words must be present.” In fact, it’s the other way around buddy. It’s me whose doing the hearing and in response doing the asking.
I heard that “homosexuality” was wrong because, I was told that a word in 1. Cor 6:9 confirmed it. Now what institution do you think would be responsible for that? It’s definetly not me. So in return I asked about the term sodomite and the original Greek word it’s attempted to iterrate. So please remember to, if nothing else, keep your facts straight!
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