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Elizabeth502
Guest
The abominations that were committed were also in defiance of this charity. /QUOTE]
Well yes, morally abominable acts always offend against Truth, Justice, and Charity, by definition.
(Not news.)
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adrift
Guest
:banghead:
Please read the thread. It has already been discussed extensively what other scriptures say.
Ezekiel isnât the only one who says what the sin was.
According to Isaiah , it was a lack of social justice; Jeremiah saw it as general immorality. In Jude, it is identified as âgoing after strange fleshâ since the word homosexual did not exist this is the best way they could describe it. Ezekiel described it more specifically as a disregard for the poor
I donât know why you would take one scripture over the others. Your speculation that it was practiced by a minority is unsupported.
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irenaeuslyons
Guest
Well I thought I did read the thread as I did not notice the navigation bars for more content.
In either case, I am sorry to have obviously disturbed you to the point of rudeness.
As to why I take Ezekiels over the others; I do because it makes the most sense to me given the account of the story. Especially when you see how the principle of charity and hospitality was held above the well being of the mans own daughters. Everything else was really secondary.
Secondly, you challenged my assumption that the sodomites were a minority. I base this assumption on the fact that throughout recorded history there has never been a city with a recorded majority. Deviations from the natural inclinations of ones nature are usually not a majority, ever.
In either case, I am sorry to have obviously disturbed you to the point of rudeness.
As to why I take Ezekiels over the others; I do because it makes the most sense to me given the account of the story. Especially when you see how the principle of charity and hospitality was held above the well being of the mans own daughters. Everything else was really secondary.
Secondly, you challenged my assumption that the sodomites were a minority. I base this assumption on the fact that throughout recorded history there has never been a city with a recorded majority. Deviations from the natural inclinations of ones nature are usually not a majority, ever.
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tjones80
Guest
Sodom and Gomorrah never occurred. It is just a story in the bible with a moral point.
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adrift
Guest
Are you speaking of your rudeness or are you accusing me of rudeness or is it just an ad hominem attack.
Considering that sodomy came from Sodom, it makes more sense to accept Jude.
How dare me to challenge your assumption:bowdown: I believe that the cities of Sodom-Gomorrah prove your assumption wrong.
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irenaeuslyons
Guest
Yes, the word Sodomy as used today was derived from biblical story of Sodom, because the abomination is what most easily leaves an imprint on the mind. However, it does not follow that the deviant act originated there.
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adrift
Guest
I didnât know there was a claim that it originated there only that it was a sin committed there.
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brb3
Guest
Thanks, CC seems to think they r only homosexual sins.
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CopticChristian
Guest
brb,
And you surmised this revelation by what method? This is not true however I marvel at your method of believing this is so.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Will God ever punish America if the Supreme Court makes gay marriage legal?
How many homosexual sins and how many broken families will it take for America to fall?
How many homosexual sins and how many broken families will it take for America to fall?
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Jet,
This presupposes that America is the chosen people as Israel was the chosen peopleâŚI am not convinced of that.
It discounts
North America
Central America
South America
What America are you talking about?
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
I meant it rhetorically for all those people who think that America will always be special regardless of how much it sins.
I donât think this is true because i donât think it is true for ANY country.
I LOVE America but if America keeps going down the Sodom-Gommorrah toilet eventually the country will have to PAY for its sins!
Wake up America!
Quit being tolerant of peopleâs sinful choices.
Tell them that if they keep sinning and die in that state that theyâre going to go to Hell and bring the country down with them!
People might hate you for telling such truths but take heartâthe Sodom-Gommorrah crowd in ancient Rome felt the same way towards the early christians who told them the same thing!
Tolerance does not = goodness!
Tolerance of oneâs sins and failure to correct otherâs = Hell!
I donât think this is true because i donât think it is true for ANY country.
I LOVE America but if America keeps going down the Sodom-Gommorrah toilet eventually the country will have to PAY for its sins!
Wake up America!
Quit being tolerant of peopleâs sinful choices.
Tell them that if they keep sinning and die in that state that theyâre going to go to Hell and bring the country down with them!
People might hate you for telling such truths but take heartâthe Sodom-Gommorrah crowd in ancient Rome felt the same way towards the early christians who told them the same thing!
Tolerance does not = goodness!
Tolerance of oneâs sins and failure to correct otherâs = Hell!
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CopticChristian
Guest
Jet,
So you believe that God is responsible for America and America is not heeding the callâŚas I recall the Puritans thought that this was going to be the New IsraelâŚbut as we know Israel is people and not dirtâŚ
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
God isnât responsible for AmericaâAmerica just like all countries is responsible TO God.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Jerry,
Then if this is so, how do we looking down from the perspective of the Almighty, see the America that is responsible to God?
Is it the White House?
Is it the Supreme Court?
Is it the Jehovah Witness?
Is it the Catholic Church in America?
Is it the Mormons?
What is this America that can be shown to be responsible to God?
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Portrait
Guest
Dear CopticChristian,
Codial greetings and a very good day.
America, as with any other nation, is collectively responsible for its sins and iniquities and will be visited with the righteous wrath of God, in whatever way God deems fit, if it persists in provoking Him, especially in sins involving moral degeneracy and unnatural vice. This can be seen from the example of the depravity of the antedeluvian world and from the obliteration of Sodom and Gommorah.
Regarding the corruption of the old world prior to the Flood, dear friend, we read that âGod saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continuallyâ (Gen. 6: 5). The heart of man had become a well of corruption (cf. S. Matt. 15: 18-20; Jer. 17: 9) and God was provoked every day by the exceeding collective wickedness, for, as it is written, âGod is angry with the wicked every dayâ (Ps. 7: 11). As His mercies are new every morining towards the His people, so His anger is new every morning against the wicked, upon the fresh occasions which it elicites by their renewed transgressions against Him. Almighty God is still the same yesterday, today and forever and the nations of the world must again be made aware that their sins and iniquities continually kindle His wrath, especially those involving homosexual acts of depravity against which even nature herself protests. Any nation that decriminalizes homosexual vice and argues in favour for abominable âgayâ marriages is surely rousing Godâs wrath against it. This may not be popular doctrine, but it is the truth nonetheless.
As consequence of the depravity of the ancient world, we read that God was âgrievedâŚat his heartâ (Gen. 6: 6) Surely God must also be very grieved when he looks down upon the collective sin of the so called progressive Western nations, who have laboured hard since the Sixties to legitimize homosexual deviancy and remove any âbigotedâ prejudice against it.
The destruction of Sodom and Gommorah also serve as a stern warning against collective sin, dear friend. It is written that the âcryâ of Sodom and Gommorah was âgreatâ and âthat their sinâ was âvery greviousâ (Gen. 18: 20). Observe, that the passage says âtheir sinâ, for they were collectively guilty of homosexual vice (St. Jude 7), as well as other sins. It was for this collective sin that âthe Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; and he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the groundâ (Gen. 19: 24,25). Collective sin resulted in collective punishment. It should be noted that Almighty God was the immediate author of this terrifying destruction - âthe Lord rainedâŚfrom the Lord out of heavenâ. Those that âwent after strange fleshâ were destroyed by a strange fire from Heaven (cf. St. Jude 7). The utter obliteration of Sodom and Gomorrah was designed for a standing revelation of the wrath of God against sin and sinners in all ages. Accordingly, it is often referenced in Sacred Scripture and made a pattern of the ruin of Israel (Deut. 29: 23), of Babylon (Isa. 13: 19), of Edom (Jer. 49: 18), of Moab and Ammon, (Zeph. 2: 9). Indeed, most sobering of all it was typical of âthe vengeance of eternal fireâ (St. Jude 7) and the ruin of the ungodly (II Pet. 2: 6). Therefore, nations are responsible for their collective sins and iniquities against Almighty God and He will, at length, call them to account and unless they repent they will, in some manner that He deems appropriate, be visited with his wrath. The nations of the world must be warned that God is not indifferent to sin and that it continually calls forth His holy abhorrence (cf. Rom. 1: 18). Sin is an affront to His absolute holiness and a direct assault upon His majesty. Indeed, the phrase, âthe wrath of Godâ, is an expression indicative of the righteous outlflow of divine disfavour upon sinners; it points to the most intense, personal response to sin within the divine Being, devoid of those unworthy human emotions normally associated with the word âwrathâ.
Sadly, dear friend, men are no longer aware of the exceeding sinfulness of sin and therefore fail to see the hurtful nature of it. As the above examples cogently evince, corporate iniquity tends to ruin and when nations loose sight of the terrors of the Lord, they are headed for destruction. Homosexual deviant acts must never be tolerated by any nation for they are such an abomination (Lev. 18: 22). That ever there should have been occasion of making that law in Leviticus against unnatural vice, and that it should have been repeatedly broken, testifies to the perpetual reproach and depravity of fallen human nature. Men today need to be told afresh that such sins against nature call out for divine punishment - âit is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Godâ.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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CopticChristian
Guest
Portait,
So as long as we have 10 righteous men in America then we are safe. In consideration that there at least that many Bishops in the USA and I would presume that at least they are righteous we need not worry. Is that correct?
If we are not safe however who wil be the Lot equivalent? Will it be Pat Robertson or someone else?
J
juliamajor
Guest
.The primary sin of Sodom was injustice. " outcry " in old testament is attached to injustice and disregard for the poor and downtrodden. The sin of injustice and the the sin of idolatry in the old testament can be compared with first patient in the outbreak of a plague - all other victims of the plague can be connected to that first one. The sin of Sodom was initially the sin of injustice. Like a plague sin can mutate and morph into other sins. Bubonic becomes pneumonic. Sin falls upon sin (Shakespeare?) .just like murder becomes easier after the first victim, so sin and more sin becomes easier.
Collective guilt of women or children who would be incapable of homosexual rape seems a little off to me. And really doesnât fit in with OT view of communal guilt. But denial of the basic rights and injustice is very much a biblical collective sin. The prophets in Israel railed time and time against it. Idolatry actually leads to injustice which leads into and exacerbates every other sin. Read exodus commentary by Nahum sarna or the Jewish study Bible to get an old testament view of Sodom⌠but the NAB notes are correct about injustice and immorality.
In other words in THE OLD TESTAMENT mind -first among sins that leads to other sins is idolatry, which leads ti injustice which leads to every other sin that can be imagined.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear CopticChristian,
Cordial greetings and thankyou for your response.
When, dear friend, wickedness has become so pandemic within in a nation, as it has in both the America and the UK, judgment will never be far off - âFor the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of menâ (Rom. 1: 18). These words do not, it is quite true, necessarily demand any supernatural manifestation of Godâs wrath from Heaven, as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah. However, they assert the fact that Godâs retributive justice is evident in history (cf. Isa. 10: 5). Our God is no idle spectator of world events; he is dynamically active in the affairs of mankind. The commission of sin is constantly punctuated by divine judgement and one could say that the history of the world is the judgment of the world.
Certainly, dear friend, whilst there is a godly remnant of praying people in a nation, Catholic or Protestant, to empty the measure, as it were, as it fills, national judgments may be withheld for a great while. However, when all hands, including the powers that be, are busy pulling down the fences and passing laws that undermine or are contrary to Godâs laws, then what can be expected but an inundation of Godâs holy wrath? This, I would contend, is what is sadly occuring in both Britain and America today. Truly, our plight is very desperate indeed. There is a lowered public opinion to be raised and an unprecedented disregard of moral standards to be fought against, even within the bosom of Holy Mother Church. How we need more devout unworldly men like Noah, Abraham and St. John the Baptist who will walk with God and not desist from boldly rebuking vice, men who have the right principles and dispositions and men who will unceasingly intercede for sinners.
The righteous, dear friend, are mingled with the wicked in this world. However, though the righteous are among the wicked, yet our righteous God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked. Notwithstanding that they may well be involved in national judgments and calamities, yet in the Great Day a distinction will be made and the good will be finally separated from among the wicked and be safe forever (S. Matt. 13: 41,42, 47-50). Moreover, whilst the righteous may suffer with the wicked, yet they do not suffer like them. Common calamities, possibly the result of national divine judgment, are quite another thing to a God-fearing man than they are to a wicked man who lives without religion and faith (cf. Isa. 27: 7).
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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CopticChristian
Guest
Portrait,
You left some of what Paul says out to develop your thoughtsâŚas seen hereâŚ
This passage is actually the footnote for the followingâŚ
141 Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10.
and when you consider what you posted and what you left outâŚthe therefore and for this reason is explained in the passage that the Catechism quotesâŚ
and the Catechism mentions nothing of fire and brimstone when referencing this passageâŚ
I understand your point of view however in light of the fact that when you consider that the OT conceals the NT and the NT reveals the OTâŚwe can see that earthly kingdoms are not subject to the heavenly Kingdom and we know where that is goingâŚ
In fact within the Heavenly Kingdom on Earth there is wheat and chaff and judgement waits for people not places as we understand.
I appreciate your sentiment thoughâŚ
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