Sodom-Gomorrah----99.9% Gay. Proves socially learned/acquired sin

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:D.
The primary sin of Sodom was injustice. " outcry " in old testament is attached to injustice and disregard for the poor and downtrodden. The sin of injustice and the the sin of idolatry in the old testament can be compared with first patient in the outbreak of a plague - all other victims of the plague can be connected to that first one. The sin of Sodom was initially the sin of injustice. Like a plague sin can mutate and morph into other sins. Bubonic becomes pneumonic. Sin falls upon sin (Shakespeare?) .just like murder becomes easier after the first victim, so sin and more sin becomes easier.
Collective guilt of women or children who would be incapable of homosexual rape seems a little off to me. And really doesn’t fit in with OT view of communal guilt. But denial of the basic rights and injustice is very much a biblical collective sin. The prophets in Israel railed time and time against it. Idolatry actually leads to injustice which leads into and exacerbates every other sin. Read exodus commentary by Nahum sarna or the Jewish study Bible to get an old testament view of Sodom… but the NAB notes are correct about injustice and immorality.
In other words in THE OLD TESTAMENT mind -first among sins that leads to other sins is idolatry, which leads ti injustice which leads to every other sin that can be imagined.
Dear juliamajor,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

As mentioned in a previous post, dear friend, whilst Sodom and Gomorrahwere undoubtedly guilty of other sins, the chief sin on which the N.T. writers fix upon is homosexual vice: “And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly…” (II Pet. 2: 6). From this passage it is clear that the false prophets and teachers against whom St. Peter warned the faithful, fell into the wicked unnatural vice of for which those cities were famed. The words “making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly” could scarcely be cited as a warning against social injustice or indifference to the poor, but must surely imply such as brought so tremendous a vengenace from Heaven against those cities if the plain. Moreover, we are told that Lot was “vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked”, in other words it was the licentious conduct of that lawless society in which he lived that tortured his “righteous soul” (v. 8). The term, “filthy” could hardly be applied to injustice or disregard to the downtrodden, though that is not in any way to minimise the gravity of these sins.

For St. Jude, the primary sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was “going after strange flesh” (v. 7)that is to say, immorally indulging in unnatural lust. Homosexual deviant acts are the sins which St. Jude focuses our attention upon and in the O.T. narrative it is the unnatural vice is given as the reason for the obliteration of Sodom and Gommorrah. St. Jude’s unequivocal statement is an inspired commentary upon the O.T. story and should not be ingnored. To be sure, homosexual vice was not Sodom’s only sin, but according to Sacred Scripture is was certainly one of them and the one which merits the attention of the N.T. writers.

As regards the collective guilt of women and children, dear friend, it needs to be remembered that they were still a part of the community of these wicked cities, even if they were not involved in the actual unnatural vice itself. When Jerusalem was sacked in AD 70 many Jewish women and their children perished in that “great tribulation”, even though they were not insurgents themselves, many of them died of famine. Josephus tells usthat children wandered about the market place with stomachs distended on account of the famine. In all calamities the innocent will sadly suffer, but no one will suffer eternally in Hell unless they truly deserve that dreadful end - “The Judge of all the earth will do right”.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Dear juliamajor,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

As mentioned in a previous post, dear friend, whilst Sodom and Gomorrahwere undoubtedly guilty of other sins, the chief sin on which the N.T. writers fix upon is homosexual vice: “And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly…” (II Pet. 2: 6). From this passage it is clear that the false prophets and teachers against whom St. Peter warned the faithful, fell into the wicked unnatural vice of for which those cities were famed. The words “making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly” could scarcely be cited as a warning against social injustice or indifference to the poor, but must surely imply such as brought so tremendous a vengenace from Heaven against those cities if the plain. Moreover, we are told that Lot was “vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked”, in other words it was the licentious conduct of that lawless society in which he lived that tortured his “righteous soul” (v. 8). The term, “filthy” could hardly be applied to injustice or disregard to the downtrodden, though that is not in any way to minimise the gravity of these sins.

For St. Jude, the primary sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was “going after strange flesh” (v. 7)that is to say, immorally indulging in unnatural lust. Homosexual deviant acts are the sins which St. Jude focuses our attention upon and in the O.T. narrative it is the unnatural vice is given as the reason for the obliteration of Sodom and Gommorrah. St. Jude’s unequivocal statement is an inspired commentary upon the O.T. story and should not be ingnored. To be sure, homosexual vice was not Sodom’s only sin, but according to Sacred Scripture is was certainly one of them and the one which merits the attention of the N.T. writers.

As regards the collective guilt of women and children, dear friend, it needs to be remembered that they were still a part of the community of these wicked cities, even if they were not involved in the actual unnatural vice itself. When Jerusalem was sacked in AD 70 many Jewish women and their children perished in that “great tribulation”, even though they were not insurgents themselves, many of them died of famine. Josephus tells usthat children wandered about the market place with stomachs distended on account of the famine. In all calamities the innocent will sadly suffer, but no one will suffer eternally in Hell unless they truly deserve that dreadful end - “The Judge of all the earth will do right”.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
Portrait,

and following up on what Paul says their just punishment would be…

fire and brimstone?

destruction of the city?

No, by no means…let them have their depraved minds…
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer,** God gave them over to a depraved mind, **to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; [they are] gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and **although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. **
and in their depravity they know that it is wrong, encourage others to do wrong and they choose creature not the Creator and that is their punishment…

so I guess America is safe…since the depraved are living in their depraved minds and in that sense their world is destroyed:D
 
Portrait,

You left some of what Paul says out to develop your thoughts…as seen here…

This passage is actually the footnote for the following…

141 Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10.

and when you consider what you posted and what you left out…the therefore and for this reason is explained in the passage that the Catechism quotes…

and the Catechism mentions nothing of fire and brimstone when referencing this passage…

I understand your point of view however in light of the fact that when you consider that the OT conceals the NT and the NT reveals the OT…we can see that earthly kingdoms are not subject to the heavenly Kingdom and we know where that is going…

In fact within the Heavenly Kingdom on Earth there is wheat and chaff and judgement waits for people not places as we understand.🙂

I appreciate your sentiment though…👍
Dear CopticChristian,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

Unfortunately, dear friend, man in his fallen estate will always “hold the truth in unrighteousness” (Rom. 1: 18), and that included the men of Sodom and Gomorrah. Man avoidably knows God, for everywhere in the created order he is confronted by God’s everlasting power and divinity (Rom. 1: 20). However, it is because man also knows that he is a sinner estranged from God, that he always seeks to supress or stifle this true knowledge of God. For whilst sin has not utterly destroyed man’s religious capacities, it has turned them away from the living God, so that he now prefers to worship finite deities of his own invention and is prone to descend into the most vilest vices. It is this that evokes the wrath of God and why he needs so urgently repent and be reconciled to his Maker.

We know from our Lord, dear friend, that He will say to the wicked at the Last Judgment: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (S. Matt. 25: 41). These are very awesome words that ought to make every child of Adam tremble and hereafter live a godly, righteous and sober life.

God bless and goodbye for now, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
 
Dear CopticChristian,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

Unfortunately, dear friend, man in his fallen estate will always “hold the truth in unrighteousness” (Rom. 1: 18), and that included the men of Sodom and Gomorrah. Man avoidably knows God, for everywhere in the created order he is confronted by God’s everlasting power and divinity (Rom. 1: 20). However, it is because man also knows that he is a sinner estranged from God, that he always seeks to supress or stifle this true knowledge of God. For whilst sin has not utterly destroyed man’s religious capacities, it has turned them away from the living God, so that he now prefers to worship finite deities of his own invention and is prone to descend into the most vilest vices. It is this that evokes the wrath of God and why he needs so urgently repent and be reconciled to his Maker.

We know from our Lord, dear friend, that He will say to the wicked at the Last Judgment: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (S. Matt. 25: 41). These are very awesome words that ought to make every child of Adam tremble and hereafter live a godly, righteous and sober life.

God bless and goodbye for now, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
Edit: lines 4 and 5 should read: “Man unavoidably knows God, for everywhere in the created order…”.
 
Dear CopticChristian,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

(Rom. 1: 18), and that included the men of Sodom and Gomorrah. Man avoidably knows God, for everywhere in the created order he is confronted by God’s everlasting power and divinity (Rom. 1: 20). However, it is because man also knows that he is a sinner estranged from God, that he always seeks to supress or stifle this true knowledge of God. For whilst sin has not utterly destroyed man’s religious capacities, it has turned them away from the living God, so that he now prefers to worship finite deities of his own invention and is prone to descend into the most vilest vices. It is this that evokes the wrath of God and why he needs so urgently repent and be reconciled to his Maker.

We know from our Lord, dear friend, that He will say to the wicked at the Last Judgment: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (S. Matt. 25: 41). These are very awesome words that ought to make every child of Adam tremble and hereafter live a godly, righteous and sober life.

God bless and goodbye for now, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
Portrait,
Unfortunately, dear friend, man in his fallen estate will always “hold the truth in unrighteousness”
In the fallen estate will we be subject to estate tax?
 
Over the entire Old Testament God deals with the collective sins of nations. Israel is punished or not punished for its sins–many times the prophets warn against alliances with evil foreign nations–Kings are told by the prophets to not follow the Gods of any of their foreign wives.

While it is true that no nation has chosen people status nowadays–IF God is truly sovereign–and Catholic dogma is that God is sovereign–then at some LIMIT known to God He MUST by definition punish nations that sin beyond whatever His parameter is.

In other words there are LIMITS to how much control evil can have over the entire world.

Necessarily some of those controls must involve individual countries.

I don’t think that we as humans can fathom the calculations that go into exactly HOW God works in human history when there are 7 billion living souls and all of them exercising free will and however many countries there are in the world exercising free will–

but that certainly doesn’t mean that God is incapable of making such calculations or that God doesn’t influence individual human lives–God does!

Now having said that can we point to any specific act by any person and say that God responded with exactly this or that exact action?

Of course not! But just because we can’t do that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen!

God can influence the world in billions of ways everyday and also be able to do so in a way that couldn’t be overtly seen!

Now do I believe the Pat Robertsons of this world that say that since the world or this or that country in the world sinned then the Tsunami was the resultant punishment?

Of course not!

Having said that do I believe that God stopped dealing with nations on a collective basis after the Old Testament? No!

What I’m saying is that the prophet’s sermons against sin in the Old Testament are appropriate TODAY!

Sin isn’t ONLY punished at the end of time individually but is also punished to some extent TODAY to individuals TODAY and to nations TODAY!

Just because you can’t identify it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Murderers are punished TODAY for murders they commit today. Some are punished years from now and a very small number are never caught until their deaths. If they die in a state of mortal sin they pay forever in Hell–if they die in a state of venial sin they pay in purgatory–if they’ve been forgiven and die in a state of perfection in
God’s eyes then they do not pay.

If such things are true about murder then they are true about all the other sins–we pay a certain amount just from being alienated from God in this life–we may pay in the next.

If a nation does enough sinning against other nations then that nation WILL pay! When it does you might could say that other nations punished it–you might could say that God allowed other nations to punish it–you might could say that God didn’t have anything to do with it but just allowed free will.

The problem with the last point is that God doesn’t let anybody UNLIMITEDLY exercise free will.

Adam and Eve didn’t get to KEEP on sinning in the Garden for ever with NO limit without paying the consequences.

Nations don’t get to do so either.

When it comes to gay marriage or abortion they are just PART of the zillion different combinations of choices that God will calculate when He decides how He will exercise His sovereignty in setting ultimate limits for the exercise of free will.

99.999999999% of the time God allows us as individuals and as nations to sin. All I’m saying is that God doesn’t 100% of the time allow us to INFINITELY sin with no consequences.

Sometimes WE pay–sometimes nations pay!

The scripture says “Be not deceived–God is not mocked–whatever you sew–that you will also reap”.

That happens for us as individuals. Countries are made up of individuals and they are individuals in the world of countries. That which applies to individuals at SOME point applies also to nations at some point.

Gay marriage is an INDIVIDUAL abomination that unrepented of at death will result in Hell.

Gay marriage as a national policy unrepented of WILL result at some point result in bad consequences for a nation that sanctions that abomination!

These facts are true whether gay marriage supporters want them to be true or not!

They are also true regardless of Pat Robertson types who are wrong when they think that they can identify with certainty how exactly God applies punishment to individuals and nations in this life.

You can’t do that because you do not know the mind of God. Just because you don’t know God’s mind, though, doesn’t meant that God does not indeed punish individuals and nations to some extent in this life!
 
Over the entire Old Testament God deals with the collective sins of nations. Israel is punished or not punished for its sins–many times the prophets warn against alliances with evil foreign nations–Kings are told by the prophets to not follow the Gods of any of their foreign wives.

In other words there are LIMITS to how much control evil can have over the entire world.

Necessarily some of those controls must involve individual countries.

I don’t think that we as humans can fathom the calculations that go into exactly HOW God works in human history when there are 7 billion living souls and all of them exercising free will and however many countries there are in the world exercising free will–

but that certainly doesn’t mean that God is incapable of making such calculations or that God doesn’t influence individual human lives–God does!

Now having said that can we point to any specific act by any person and say that God responded with exactly this or that exact action?

Of course not! But just because we can’t do that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen!

God can influence the world in billions of ways everyday and also be able to do so in a way that couldn’t be overtly seen!

Now do I believe the Pat Robertsons of this world that say that since the world or this or that country in the world sinned then the Tsunami was the resultant punishment?

Of course not!

Having said that do I believe that God stopped dealing with nations on a collective basis after the Old Testament? No!

What I’m saying is that the prophet’s sermons against sin in the Old Testament are appropriate TODAY!

Sin isn’t ONLY punished at the end of time individually but is also punished to some extent TODAY to individuals TODAY and to nations TODAY!

Just because you can’t identify it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Murderers are punished TODAY for murders they commit today. Some are punished years from now and a very small number are never caught until their deaths. If they die in a state of mortal sin they pay forever in Hell–if they die in a state of venial sin they pay in purgatory–if they’ve been forgiven and die in a state of perfection in
God’s eyes then they do not pay.

If such things are true about murder then they are true about all the other sins–we pay a certain amount just from being alienated from God in this life–we may pay in the next.

If a nation does enough sinning against other nations then that nation WILL pay! When it does you might could say that other nations punished it–you might could say that God allowed other nations to punish it–you might could say that God didn’t have anything to do with it but just allowed free will.

The problem with the last point is that God doesn’t let anybody UNLIMITEDLY exercise free will.

Adam and Eve didn’t get to KEEP on sinning in the Garden for ever with NO limit without paying the consequences.

Nations don’t get to do so either.

When it comes to gay marriage or abortion they are just PART of the zillion different combinations of choices that God will calculate when He decides how He will exercise His sovereignty in setting ultimate limits for the exercise of free will.

99.999999999% of the time God allows us as individuals and as nations to sin. All I’m saying is that God doesn’t 100% of the time allow us to INFINITELY sin with no consequences.

Sometimes WE pay–sometimes nations pay!

The scripture says “Be not deceived–God is not mocked–whatever you sew–that you will also reap”.

That happens for us as individuals. Countries are made up of individuals and they are individuals in the world of countries. That which applies to individuals at SOME point applies also to nations at some point.

Gay marriage is an INDIVIDUAL abomination that unrepented of at death will result in Hell.

Gay marriage as a national policy unrepented of WILL result at some point result in bad consequences for a nation that sanctions that abomination!

These facts are true whether gay marriage supporters want them to be true or not!

They are also true regardless of Pat Robertson types who are wrong when they think that they can identify with certainty how exactly God applies punishment to individuals and nations in this life.

You can’t do that because you do not know the mind of God. Just because you don’t know God’s mind, though, doesn’t meant that God does not indeed punish individuals and nations to some extent in this life!
Portrait,
While it is true that no nation has chosen people status nowadays–IF God is truly sovereign–and Catholic dogma is that God is sovereign–then at some LIMIT known to God He MUST by definition punish nations that sin beyond whatever His parameter is.
Show me Catholic teaching on the Soveriengty of God and then restate your thoughts based on that…take your time…topic is

Soveriegnty of God in Catholic Thought
 
Are you saying that God isn’t sovereign? St. Thomas Aquinas would certainly say that God is sovereign–just read the Summa!

I guess maybe someone could argue that God could be sovereign without exerting any influence on human’s free wills but I don’t think that St. Thomas Aquinas would say that either.

And yes–the last time I checked–St. Thomas Aquinas’ views on such matters can be trusted.

What is your position CopticChristian? Is it your position that no matter how many homosexual sins are committed and no matter what laws passed by countries that support those sins such as gay marriage legalization that God does ABSOLUTELY nothing?

I don’t know what your position is–that’s why I’m asking.

I say that God does not impotently stand by and not punish at all in this present life BEFORE death.

Don’t the scriptures say that a good Father chastises His sons?

We are His adopted sons and I am sure that it is Catholic teaching that God can on occasion punish sins in this life–all punishment isn’t reserved until after death.
 
Are you saying that God isn’t sovereign? St. Thomas Aquinas would certainly say that God is sovereign–just read the Summa!

I guess maybe someone could argue that God could be sovereign without exerting any influence on human’s free wills but I don’t think that St. Thomas Aquinas would say that either.

And yes–the last time I checked–St. Thomas Aquinas’ views on such matters can be trusted.

What is your position CopticChristian? Is it your position that no matter how many homosexual sins are committed and no matter what laws passed by countries that support those sins such as gay marriage legalization that God does ABSOLUTELY nothing?

I don’t know what your position is–that’s why I’m asking.

I say that God does not impotently stand by and not punish at all in this present life BEFORE death.

Don’t the scriptures say that a good Father chastises His sons?

We are His adopted sons and I am sure that it is Catholic teaching that God can on occasion punish sins in this life–all punishment isn’t reserved until after death.
Jerry,

St. Augustine as you know was Bishop of Hippo.
But the Empire was crumbling around him, and as he lay dying in 430, the Vandal armies had crossed the Strait of Gibraltar, and Roman Africa (once the most prosperous and fertile province of the Empire) lay in ruins. The Church of Africa, which Augustine had done so much to shape, was wiped out within a few years of his death.
Was Hippo destroyed because of sin…?

or is it

The Church will prevail while countries crumble and in this God is Soveriegn…

America may turn to dust, Canada may turn to bacon, Russia may turn to cheese but the Catholic Church will prevail with wheat and chaff.
 
Jerry,

St. Augustine as you know was Bishop of Hippo.

Was Hippo destroyed because of sin…?

or is it

The Church will prevail while countries crumble and in this God is Soveriegn…

America may turn to dust, Canada may turn to bacon, Russia may turn to cheese but the Catholic Church will prevail with wheat and chaff.
Dear CopticChristian,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Divine judgment, dear friend, whether it be against nations or individuals, is God’s method of not only displaying His wrath but also His mercy. That in His soveriegnty He has judged nations in the past admits of no serious doubt, as the case of Egypt in the O.T. plainly evinces (see Exod. 6: 6; 7: 4). The sacking of Jerusalem was also another vistitation of divine judgment against a wicked nation, a nation which had rejected the Messiah and who said “we will not have this man to rule over us”. Indeed, our Lord had warned the Jews in the Parable of the Fig Tree of the fate that would be befall them in AD 70. (see S. Lk. 13: 1-9); unless they repented and received Him as their promised Messiah they would “perish” in the calamities to come 40 years hence. His hearers were setting themselves on a course, as many are today, which meant disaster and judgment would surely follow at some point - “Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together” (S. Matt. 24: 28) . When, like the Jews, a people do by their sin make themselves putrid and loathsome, nothing can be expected but that God should swoop down upon them in avenging judgment. Thus unless they repented as a matter of urgency they would certainly perish at the hands of the Romans in AD 70. This was a divine punishment for the Jews unbelief and because, they “denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto (them); And killed the Prince of life” (Acts 3: 14,15).

We can, dear friend, never rule out the possibilty that when the measure of iniquity is full up and God’ wrath has been kindled to the uttermost, He will not visit a nation in divine judgment. This is not to say that He always must, but that He is at perfect liberty to do so, as the cases of Egypt and Sodom make abundantly clear. Both America and Britian, where I reside, are now living on the religious capitial of the past, and that is being rapidly exhausted as evil men and seducers wax worse and worse. National repentance is the urgent need of the hour - “Righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people” (Prov. 14: 34). A righteous administration of government which gives public countenance to religion, fosters the practice of virtue and elevates people’s minds, thus qualifying a nation for God’s favour. On the other hand, vice reigning in a nation degrades it and renders it despicable, which is sadly the case with many Western nations today. In point of fact Israel in the O.T. history was frequently an instance of both aspects of the Proverbs text - they were great when they were good, but when they forsook God all about them insulted and trampled upon them. It is therefore the interest and duty of governments to use their powers for the supression, not the promotion of vice, and thus support virtue.

God bless, dear friend, and may you and all other contributors to this thread have an enjoyable and relaxing weekend, whatever are your plans.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
 
No matter how far the world goes down the toilet the Church will always survive.

In some ways today is no different than the first century when the Catholic church was just getting started.

We have the Lord Jesus in the eucharist–the Holy Spirit to guide us and to lead the Church into all truth.

Fear not!
 
Dear CopticChristian,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Divine judgment, dear friend, whether it be against nations or individuals, is God’s method of not only displaying His wrath but also His mercy**. That in His soveriegnty **He has judged nations in the past admits of no serious doubt, as the case of Egypt in the O.T. plainly evinces (see Exod. 6: 6; 7: 4). The sacking of Jerusalem was also another vistitation of divine judgment against a wicked nation, a nation which had rejected the Messiah and who said “we will not have this man to rule over us”. Indeed, our Lord had warned the Jews in the Parable of the Fig Tree of the fate that would be befall them in AD 70. (see S. Lk. 13: 1-9); unless they repented and received Him as their promised Messiah they would “perish” in the calamities to come 40 years hence. His hearers were setting themselves on a course, as many are today, which meant disaster and judgment would surely follow at some point - “Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together” (S. Matt. 24: 28) . When, like the Jews, a people do by their sin make themselves putrid and loathsome, nothing can be expected but that God should swoop down upon them in avenging judgment. Thus unless they repented as a matter of urgency they would certainly perish at the hands of the Romans in AD 70. This was a divine punishment for the Jews unbelief and because, they “denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto (them); And killed the Prince of life” (Acts 3: 14,15).

We can, dear friend, never rule out the possibilty that when the measure of iniquity is full up and God’ wrath has been kindled to the uttermost, He will not visit a nation in divine judgment. This is not to say that He always must, but that He is at perfect liberty to do so, as the cases of Egypt and Sodom make abundantly clear. Both America and Britian, where I reside, are now living on the religious capitial of the past, and that is being rapidly exhausted as evil men and seducers wax worse and worse. National repentance is the urgent need of the hour - “Righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people” (Prov. 14: 34). A righteous administration of government which gives public countenance to religion, fosters the practice of virtue and elevates people’s minds, thus qualifying a nation for God’s favour. On the other hand, vice reigning in a nation degrades it and renders it despicable, which is sadly the case with many Western nations today. In point of fact Israel in the O.T. history was frequently an instance of both aspects of the Proverbs text - they were great when they were good, but when they forsook God all about them insulted and trampled upon them. It is therefore the interest and duty of governments to use their powers for the supression, not the promotion of vice, and thus support virtue.

God bless, dear friend, and may you and all other contributors to this thread have an enjoyable and relaxing weekend, whatever are your plans.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
Portrait,
Show me Catholic teaching on the Soveriengty of God and then restate your thoughts based on that…take your time…topic is
Soveriegnty of God in Catholic Thought
 
Portrait,
Catechism:
God transcends creation and is present to it.

300 God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens."156 Indeed, God’s “greatness is unsearchable”.157 But because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures’ inmost being: "In him we live and move and have our being."158 In the words of St. Augustine, God is “higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self”.159
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm
 
:D.
The primary sin of Sodom was injustice. " outcry " in old testament is attached to injustice and disregard for the poor and downtrodden. The sin of injustice and the the sin of idolatry in the old testament can be compared with first patient in the outbreak of a plague - all other victims of the plague can be connected to that first one. The sin of Sodom was initially the sin of injustice. Like a plague sin can mutate and morph into other sins. Bubonic becomes pneumonic. Sin falls upon sin (Shakespeare?) .just like murder becomes easier after the first victim, so sin and more sin becomes easier.
Collective guilt of women or children who would be incapable of homosexual rape seems a little off to me.
Keep in mind that back in those days, cities were not dwelling places for families. Women and children did not live in cities; they lived on farms, and they travelled in caravans, living as nomads, following the animals that provided their livelihood, and raising gardens and crops of various kinds.

Cities as they were then were like what downtown is like in modern times - people did not normally live there, but they went there to do business - to trade their crops and animals for goods and services. Because they had to travel on foot to get to the cities, they had temporary dwelling places. Those who were outcast from their tribes (typically for crimes like theft or murder), or who for whatever reason had become separated from their tribes, would live there permanently, but these people didn’t typically have wives or children.

Cities as we understand them today, as dwelling places for families, and centres of community life with schools, hospitals, and government agencies, didn’t exist until the time of Moses.
 
Will God ever punish America if the Supreme Court makes gay marriage legal?

How many homosexual sins and how many broken families will it take for America to fall?
Families have been broken by divorce, money issues, adultery, addiction and abuse…how many broken families will it take for America fall?

Homosexuals are not the cause of broken families.

And why just America? Are there no homosexuals in the rest of the world?🤷 I had no idea it was just an American issue.:eek:
 
Maybe I’m wrong on this, but Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the very few passages in the Bible I have a lot of trouble accepting – I understand the debates over just what the “sin of Sodom” is, but the part that I cannot accept is that in a culture that highly prized virginity (to say nothing of the moral qualms) that Lot would say “don’t sexually assualt these men – here are my two daughters. Sexually assault THEM.” And nobody looked at him and said “What? No, really – WHAT? What the heck, “hero”?”
I’ve also had problems with that one - that Lot was willing to toss out his daughters like that…
…I think however that there is a “context” to this that at least helped me to understand it better.

My wealthy Aunt went to San Francisco to help out with massive earthquake they had in 1989 via the Red Cross…
…She was assigned initially to an area that was mainly populated by “gay men”.
…She was instructed to NOT leave the area of the shelter without a security escort.

The reason for this was because the gays were militant in their homosexuality…
…Within two weeks my Aunt was stationed in another location.
…Now, she is very liberal and didn’t even want to accept it.

Perhaps something like this was going on in Sodom - the militant homosexuals wanted to “do stuff” to the angels…
…And Lot offered his daughters up not for sexual purposes ( because gay men interested in other men don’t want females ).
…But for the sodomites to abuse in other ways - such as trading them to the militant dykes of the city for money?

We have to understand that at that time females were not really valued and it was generally brutal…
…As a Father myself I can’t imagine “offering” my kids to a mob but at that time, with girls being viewed as sort of cattle.
…This is how it was.
 
I’ve also had problems with that one - that Lot was willing to toss out his daughters like that…
…I think however that there is a “context” to this that at least helped me to understand it better.

My wealthy Aunt went to San Francisco to help out with massive earthquake they had in 1989 via the Red Cross…
…She was assigned initially to an area that was mainly populated by “gay men”.
…She was instructed to NOT leave the area of the shelter without a security escort.

The reason for this was because the gays were militant in their homosexuality…
…Within two weeks my Aunt was stationed in another location.
…Now, she is very liberal and didn’t even want to accept it.

Perhaps something like this was going on in Sodom - the militant homosexuals wanted to “do stuff” to the angels…
…And Lot offered his daughters up not for sexual purposes ( because gay men interested in other men don’t want females ).
…But for the sodomites to abuse in other ways - such as trading them to the militant dykes of the city for money?

We have to understand that at that time females were not really valued and it was generally brutal…
…As a Father myself I can’t imagine “offering” my kids to a mob but at that time, with girls being viewed as sort of cattle.
…This is how it was.
From the Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 8. Known man. They were neglected, while men were inflamed with desires of each other. See Romans i. (Haydock) — Abuse. Lot tries by every means to divert them from their purpose; being well assured, that they would have nothing to do with his daughters, who were promised to some of the inhabitants. He endeavours to gain time, hoping perhaps that his guests would escape by some back way, while he is talking to the people. (Haydock) —Some allow that, under so great a perturbation of mind, he consented to an action which could never be allowed, though it was a less evil. (Menochius)
 
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