'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[Johan]

Luther had a balanced understanding of the gospel, he couldn’t point blank reject good works but 99% of Protestants who have come after him will in fact reject good works and parrot the ‘faith alone’ propaganda like you.

I cannot recall that I have ever come across an Evangelical who “rejects” good works. Good works are what God expects from His children. However, we also assert that no good works that we may perform contribute to our justification before God. We are saved by grace alone.

And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (Rom. 11:6)

 

[dopeyMS]

Good works do contribute towards justification. Luther would never have had his revelation of grace if he hadn’t been working his way to heaven so diligently and scraping the skin off his knees from prostration.

 

[De_Maria]

fhansen:

True enough. In fact the Church can even teach, quoting St John of the Cross regarding our “particular judgement”,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Amen.

Common Affirmations
109. Catholics and Lutherans affirm together that God, who calls us into a life of communion with him, holds us accountable for our whole lives.

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...ous/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Our whole lives. Our deeds matter, before and after justification.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

fhansen:

True enough. In fact the Church can even teach, quoting St John of the Cross regarding our “particular judgement”,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Amen.

Common Affirmations
109. Catholics and Lutherans affirm together that God, who calls us into a life of communion with him, holds us accountable for our whole lives.

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...ous/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Our whole lives. Our deeds matter, before and after justification.

Agreed…

 

[De_Maria]

dopeyMS:

I was raised Lutheran and I have read most of Luther’s writings and his understanding of love was the medieval ‘caritas’ or works-based charity so he was against it. And anyone who has read his writings knows this is true.

If you were raised Lutheran and read “most” of his writings, and you came away with the idea that he opposed good works, it must have been a different Lutheran than I’ve read.

And there you go, Jon. Maybe next time we debate I won’t have to hear your “that’s not what Lutherans believe” spiel.

 

[JonNC]

And there you go, Jon. Maybe next time we debate I won’t have to hear your “that’s not what Lutherans believe” spiel.

Anytime what Lutherans believe is misrepresented, either wittingly or unwittingly, I will respond with, “that’s not what Lutherans believe.” What the poster said is not Lutheran teaching.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

And there you go, Jon. Maybe next time we debate I won’t have to hear your “that’s not what Lutherans believe” spiel.

Anytime what Lutherans believe is misrepresented, either wittingly or unwittingly, I will respond with, “that’s not what Lutherans believe.” What the poster said is not Lutheran teaching.

You’re still confusing belief and teaching. And you are also confusing your understanding of Lutheran teaching with that which the Lutheran Church actually teaches.

1. The former Lutheran with whom you are speaking expressed his beliefs which he based upon the teaching of the Lutheran Church.
2. You expressed surprise because your beliefs differ and you had the same source documents.
3. Basically, we have situation with one Lutheran against another Lutheran and you assume that you’re right. But, since I"ve heard other Lutherans express his opinion, he might be right and you wrong.

By the way, are you still Lutheran? Whether you are or you’re not, who made you the official expositor of Lutheran doctrine?

 

[JonNC]

You’re still confusing belief and teaching. And you are also confusing your understanding of Lutheran teaching with that which the Lutheran Church actually teaches.

Oh, so that’s the standard? All I have to do is find a Catholic who doesn’t believe in the real presence to say Catholics don’t believe in the real presence?
That’s nonsense.

The former Lutheran with whom you are speaking expressed his beliefs which he based upon the teaching of the Lutheran Church.

No. He didn’t. They were beliefs based on what he mistakenly thought Lutheran teaching was.

You expressed surprise because your beliefs differ and you had the same source documents.

No. I don’t expressed surprise that someone could reach such a conclusion when the evidence indicates the opposite

Basically, we have situation with one Lutheran against another Lutheran and you assume that you’re right. But, since I"ve heard other Lutherans express his opinion, he might be right and you wrong.

No, because the Lutheran Confessions are clear about what Lutherans (should) believe, just like the CCC is clear about what Catholics (should) believe.

By the way, are you still Lutheran? Whether you are or you’re not, who made you the official expositor of Lutheran doctrine?

Who made you, a Catholic, the judge of what Lutherans do or don’t believe?
I’m not the arbiter. The confessions are. But when a Catholic disagrees with you, I’ll ask the same question of you.

 

[JonNC]

@De_Maria

Well, all the folks I hang out with believe everything the Church Teaches. But, there are some that I’ve known who kept their, hm, true beliefs, secret. They came to light later in divorce proceedings. Sad.

Clearly Catholics believe in divorce. Who made you the arbiter of Catholic beliefs?

 

[De_Maria]

Oh, so that’s the standard? All I have to do is find a Catholic who doesn’t believe in the real presence to say Catholics don’t believe in the real presence?
That’s nonsense.

Nonsense which you made up. When I meet a Protestant who says he doesn’t believe in whatever, I speak about his beliefs. It is you who gets offended because it isn’t in line with what you think he should believe.

No. He didn’t. They were beliefs based on what he mistakenly thought Lutheran teaching was.

According to you. I’ve heard other Lutherans say the same. Who made you the authority of their beliefs?

No. I don’t expressed surprise that someone could reach such a conclusion when the evidence indicates the opposite

It sounded like surprise to me.

Basically, we have situation with one Lutheran against another Lutheran and you assume that you’re right. But, since I"ve heard other Lutherans express his opinion, he might be right and you wrong.

No, because the Lutheran Confessions are clear about what Lutherans (should) believe, just like the CCC is clear about what Catholics (should) believe.

Who made you, a Catholic, the judge of what Lutherans do or don’t believe?

I don’t claim to know what every Lutheran believes. I repeat what they have told me they believe. You are the one who puts your beliefs up as the standard of all Lutheran belief.

I’m not the arbiter. The confessions are.

Lol! What happened to the Scriptures? The confessions are the arbiter of truth now? Let’s ask other Lutherans if that is true.

But when a Catholic disagrees with you, I’ll ask the same question of you.

When a Catholic disagrees with me, I’ll take him to the Church. Your opinions are simply your opinions, whether it be Lutheran or Catholic doctrine being discussed.
And that’s the problem, you think your opinions carry more weight than other Lutherans.

 

[JonNC]

Nonsense which you made up. When I meet a Protestant who says he doesn’t believe in whatever, I speak about his beliefs. It is you who gets offended because it isn’t in line with what you think he should believe.

That nonsense is precisely what you’re saying. I don’t care what Protestants believe.
I’m not offended. I’m only interested in correcting misrepresentations, witting or unwitting.

According to you. I’ve heard other Lutherans say the same. Who made you the authority of their beliefs?

I already answered it. And I quote the confessions.

I don’t claim to know what every Lutheran believes. I repeat what they have told me they believe. You are the one who puts your beliefs up as the standard of all Lutheran belief.

This is false, as I mentioned before, but I’m sure that won’t stop you from repeating it.

 

[JonNC]

When a Catholic disagrees with me, I’ll take him to the Church. Your opinions are simply your opinions, whether it be Lutheran or Catholic doctrine being discussed.

And that’s why I quote the confessions.

 

[De_Maria]

When I meet a Protestant who says he doesn’t believe in whatever, I speak about his beliefs. It is you who gets offended because it isn’t in line with what you think he should believe.

Nope.

That nonsense is precisely what you’re saying. I don’t care what Protestants believe.
I’m not offended. I’m only interested in correcting misrepresentations, witting or unwitting.

Again, who made you the arbiter of Protestant teaching?

I already answered it. And I quote the confessions.

You interpret the confessions.

This is false, as I mentioned before, but I’m sure that won’t stop you from repeating it.

It hasn’t stopped you.

 

[dopeyMS]

Jon can’t debate me rationally, he has to appeal to what was taught hundreds of years ago. He had no response for Luther’s rejection of charity or love and making faith the highest attribute of the gospel which is a subtle form of legalism. According to Luther, faith is the end all be all which goes against Peter, John, James and Paul not the Catholic church. I have to muster up my faith and self-generate righteousness or there is no justification for me. Luther said the Church stands or falls based on ‘justification by faith alone’ and when I look at dispensationals and SDA and Mormons and Jehovah’s Witness and the thousands of other Protestant sects it’s pretty obvious that the Church has fallen.

 

[De_Maria]

Yeah, Luther said and did lots of things that Protestants are still justifying.

On one Protestant website, they try to justify that Luther said, “if the wife is not willing, bring in the maid.” As though that could be justified. They don’t deny that he said all sorts of, in my opinion, satanically inspired things, but they say that we are taking them out of context.

 

[JonNC]

Again, who made you the arbiter of Protestant teaching?

How is not caring arbitrating?

You interpret the confessions.

I quote them.

 

[JonNC]

Jon can’t debate me rationally, he has to appeal to what was taught hundreds of years ago.

Exactly. I appeal to the confessions.

He had no response for Luther’s rejection of charity or love and making faith the highest attribute of the gospel which is a subtle form of legalism.

Of course I had a response. It is false. Provide, please, a quote where Luther says charity is rejected.

According to Luther, faith is the end all be all which goes against Peter, John, James and Paul not the Catholic church. I have to muster up my faith and self-generate righteousness or there is no justification for me.

Where does Luther say this?

I have to muster up my faith and self-generate righteousness or there is no justification for me.

Or this? In fact, this is so contrary to what Luther believed (self righteousness? Really?) that I’m astonished you would even right this.

and when I look at dispensationals and SDA and Mormons and Jehovah’s Witness and the thousands of other Protestant sects it’s pretty obvious that the Church has fallen.

And not a single one has anything to do with Luther. Not one.

I await your quotes.

 

[JonNC]

They don’t deny that he said all sorts of, in my opinion, satanically inspired things, but they say that we are taking them out of context.

Satanically inspired? No where that I’m aware of does the Catholic Church say Luther was satanic in his inspiration. Are you now the arbiter of Catholic teaching Luther , or is this your personal interpretation of Catholic teaching?

 

[De_Maria]

How is not caring arbitrating?

Actions speak louder than words. You don’t act as though you don’t care. If you didn’t care you wouldn’t be arguing as hard as long as you do.

I quote them.

And then interpret them.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

They don’t deny that he said all sorts of, in my opinion, satanically inspired things, but they say that we are taking them out of context.

Satanically inspired? No where that I’m aware of does the Catholic Church say Luther was satanic in his inspiration.

1. Do you see the words, “in my opinion”?
2. The Catholic Church has no official doctrine forbidding Catholics to speculate on Luther’s doctrines and his motives, at all.
3. You’re really reaching to defend Luther. Is he your religious leader? The one whom you follow?

Are you now the arbiter of Catholic teaching Luther , or is this your personal interpretation of Catholic teaching?

It’s my interpretation of Lutheran doctrine. I’m free to do so. Or are you, as official arbiter and pope of the Lutheran religion, forbidding it?