Sola Concilium and the Eastern Orthodox

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Um…I asked a question, and I will again: haven’t all of the councils submitted their documents to Rome for final approval?

I’m asking.
If you’re asking, that implies that you don’t know. Why don’t you do the research and tell us?

If you’re asserting, then surely it’s your job to provide the evidence.

It’s tempting on forums like these to make assertions and challenge other people to provide the evidence to refute them. But to be honest I don’t think it’s very polite.

Edwin
 
Um…I asked a question, and I will again: haven’t all of the councils submitted their documents to Rome for final approval?

I’m asking.
Your question is an implicit assertion. It is good manners to provide your sources when making one of those. You’re not the teacher of anyone here (to my knowledge), so don’t presume to be all Socratic with us.

Can we see your sources, please?
 
If you’re asking, that implies that you don’t know. Why don’t you do the research and tell us?

If you’re asserting, then surely it’s your job to provide the evidence.

It’s tempting on forums like these to make assertions and challenge other people to provide the evidence to refute them. But to be honest I don’t think it’s very polite.

Edwin
Your question is an implicit assertion. It is good manners to provide your sources when making one of those. You’re not the teacher of anyone here (to my knowledge), so don’t presume to be all Socratic with us.

Can we see your sources, please?
If my alleged assertion is incorrect, why not simply say “No” and explain why?

If I had sources or knew the answer, I wouldn’t have asked. But since I was asked for a source, 30 seconds on Google reveals this:

Council decisions, to be valid, are approved by the popes.[1]

1 Hubert Jedin, Kleine Konziliengeschichte, Freiburg, Herder, 1960, 9

Now, what is the correct answer?

And what about my third and fourth questions? 🤷
 
If my alleged assertion is incorrect, why not simply say “No” and explain why?
Because I don’t know the answer for sure either. I know that Rome accepted all seven Councils. How important the Fathers at those Councils thought Rome’s approval was is another matter. I do know that the Pope was coerced by the emperor into approving of the fifth Council (2 Constantinople).

I’d like to see the specific evidence on which the claims rest, for each Council. But I don’t have that evidence to hand at the moment.

What is the specific evidence that Rome’s authority was seen as essential to the validity of the Councils, while that of other important bishops wasn’t?

The bishops of Rome weren’t present at the Councils (at any of them that I can remember). Many of the other important bishops were there already. From an Orthodox (or Protestant/Anglican) perspective it could be argued that Rome’s approval was sought because the bishop of Rome was the one really important bishop who wasn’t at the Councils.

Edwin
 
Because I don’t know the answer for sure either. I know that Rome accepted all seven Councils. How important the Fathers at those Councils thought Rome’s approval was is another matter. I do know that the Pope was coerced by the emperor into approving of the fifth Council (2 Constantinople).

I’d like to see the specific evidence on which the claims rest, for each Council. But I don’t have that evidence to hand at the moment.

What is the specific evidence that Rome’s authority was seen as essential to the validity of the Councils, while that of other important bishops wasn’t?

The bishops of Rome weren’t present at the Councils (at any of them that I can remember). Many of the other important bishops were there already. From an Orthodox (or Protestant/Anglican) perspective it could be argued that Rome’s approval was sought because the bishop of Rome was the one really important bishop who wasn’t at the Councils.

Edwin
Okay. Neither of us really knows.

From reading through all these threads, however, I’ve gotten the impression that because the Popes did not personally attend, the decisions of the councils were submitted to the popes for final approval or rejection. There was a big dust-up over some Canon 28 of some council which was NOT approved. If true, this seems to suggest that the buck stops in Rome.
 
Okay. Neither of us really knows.

From reading through all these threads, however, I’ve gotten the impression that because the Popes did not personally attend, the decisions of the councils were submitted to the popes for final approval or rejection. There was a big dust-up over some Canon 28 of some council which was NOT approved. If true, this seems to suggest that the buck stops in Rome.
Olivier Clement’s You Are Peter is a pretty well-respected historical and theological summary of the evidence. Clement was Orthodox, but I hear his book cited more by Catholics than Orthodox, on the whole. I think he “conceded” too much for the liking of many Orthodox.

I think that Rome’s role is undeniable, but it was exercised in the context of the wider structures of communion, and so the evidence won’t really answer the questions we ask it. Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions. Many of the Orthodox are, I think, certainly wrong in saying that Roman primacy is just a matter of ecclesiastical politics. It’s a lot more central to the Church than that. But the language Catholics often use makes it seem as if, in the end, only the Pope matters. And that is certainly not what the early Christian evidence indicates.

Edwin
 
If you’re asking, that implies that you don’t know. Why don’t you do the research and tell us?

If you’re asserting, then surely it’s your job to provide the evidence.

It’s tempting on forums like these to make assertions and challenge other people to provide the evidence to refute them. But to be honest I don’t think it’s very polite.

Edwin
Your question is an implicit assertion. It is good manners to provide your sources when making one of those. You’re not the teacher of anyone here (to my knowledge), so don’t presume to be all Socratic with us.

Can we see your sources, please?
Well, you asked. Did you think I wouldn’t do some research? It is truly amazing what you can find on the Internet these days. Take this article written by Mark Bonocore that answers my questions directly, for example:

Popes, Councils, and Orthodoxy
philvaz.com/apologetics/a30.htm

What is an Ecumenical Council? By this, I specifically mean the first 7 Ecumenical Councils of the Church. Why were they held?

Answer: They were political, imperial-sponsored events so as to poll the bishops of the Roman Empire to see what was, and was not, orthodox doctrine. But, was this a Traditional method for determining orthodoxy? No. Rather, it was Constantine’s way of finding out what Christianity taught. And, again, because he had political concerns. He was looking for a glue to hold his Empire together, so it was of monumental importance that all the bishops be in agreement. And, in this, remember Constantine’s situation: The Empire was overflowing with Christians, yet had problems with disunity. By embracing the Church, he assumed that he could fix this in one fell swoop. However, then Constantine found out – much to his surprise – that these Christians weren’t so “unified” after all (i.e., Arianism). And, if that was the case, he needed to find out if Christianity was really (as the orthodox Christians claimed) a universal phenomenon. Otherwise, his plan was pointless.

So, what the bishops taught was never important to the powers behind Nicaea, Constantinople I, Ephesus, Chalcedon, Constantinople II, Constantinople III, and Nicaea II. Rather, the driving force was what could be agreed on (in order to promote the “One Church, One Empire” agenda) just as it was at the illicit “ecumenical councils” :

Antioch (in 341, where about 100 Eastern bishops approved of straight Arianism), Sirmium (in 351, where another 100 or so Eastern bishops espoused semi-Arianism), the Robber Council of Ephesus (in 449-450 which declared Monophysitism to be orthodox doctrine), the numerous “councils” in Constantinople (which included the patriarchs of Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem, which declared Monophysitism to be orthodox), and the councils of Constantinople of 638 and 639 which approved of the Ecthesis, embracing Monothelitism. All these Councils could have been defined historically as “Ecumenical,” if it were not for Rome’s refusal to cooperate with them.

So, what trumps what? A Council, or Rome’s teaching authority? If the Orthodox wanted to be honest about history, it is clearly Rome’s teaching authority – the very thing “Saint” Photius (being an agent of the Empire himself) denied, so as to foster Byzantine primacy through an unTraditional bid to make the P. of Constantinople “Ecumenical Patriarch,” a title which, as I recently found out, was not approved of for the P. of Constantinople until after 1453. It was a title given to him by the anti-Latin TURKS! Not by the Papacy nor by the ancient Church.

But, getting back to my point, the Orthodox have bought into a non-Ecclesial, very imperial notion of what determines orthodoxy via magisterium. Their idea that “all bishops are equal” is really rooted in the Imperial idea of polling bishops so as to see what is taught everywhere. However, while this is sometimes a useful tool it is no replacement for a magisterium. Rather, it is not all that dissimilar to the opinion polls of CNN. The very Achilles Heel of non-representational Greek Democracy. In other words, it doesn’t work. If it did, we would not have had all those illicit “ecumenical councils” I referred to above. And, in this, we see a simple rule for defining orthodoxy:

With Rome = Legitimate Ecumenical Council

Without Rome = Illicit, Heretical Council.

And any honest student of Christian history would have to admit this. The Roman Magisterium made the political exercise of the Ecumenical Council work. Without that Roman Magisterium, there was confusion and heresy. Why? 🙂

Now, with this in mind, let’s address four revisionist myths of Eastern Orthodoxy.

(cont.)
 
Myth #1: First Among Equals

The first myth is that the Pope of Rome used to be “First Among Equals” (and/or “Ecumenical Patriarch”) and then “placed himself over the other bishops, wanting to be Head of the Church.”

FACT: The Pope NEVER held the title “First Among Equals.” However, he DID posses the titles “Vicarius Christi” (Vicar of Christ, late 300’s), “Servus Sevorum Dei” (Servant of the Servants of God, mid-400’s), and Yep, you guessed it, “Head of the Church” (late 400’s), a title by which the Pope is addressed, not only by innumerable Eastern Fathers, but ALSO by the synodal letters from THREE Ecumenical Councils (Chalcedon, Constantinople III, and Nicaea II). So, any Orthodox who denies that the Pope of Rome is Head of the Church does not stand with the Council Fathers.

As for Ecumenical Patriarch, that was an out-and-out creation by the Byzantine government in the 600’s (and it was never offered to Rome, but was designed for Constantinople). Gregory the Great was the first to deny this title to the P.of C. (calling it “haughty” and “unTraditional”) and the denials continued well into the 900’s (when Photius demanded to have it); and, after him, Michael Cerularius which was fuel to the fire re: the Great Schism.

Myth #2: Five Patriarchs with Equal Authority

The 2nd myth goes like this: “There used to be 5 Patriarchs, all with equal authority. Then, the Pope of Rome broke off from the Church, whereas the other 4 remained.”

Now, 🙂 this again, is not only revisionism, but out-and-out Greek bigotry. As stated, it makes it seem like there were 4 independent Patriarchs at the time who freely refused to stick with Rome in 1054. However, once one bothers to read the history, that’s not the case at all.

In 1054, the Patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem were not the local bishops who used to rule from these sees (since all of the locals broke off with the Monophysites). Rather, the Orthodox bishops of these sees in 1054 were all Byzantine Melkites – Imperial appointees from Constantinople! Furthermore, they were presiding within Muslim countries; and their flocks were puny at best (most of the Christians in those regions being Monophysite, not Orthodox). So, they were no longer the great metropolitan sees of the ancient Church.

So, when the Orthodox say that there were 5 patriarchs and 1 broke off, that is not the case at all. It was not a 4 to 1 split. It was a 1 to 1 split – Rome and Constantinople. The sees of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem at this time (ruled by imperial-minded Greeks from Byzantium) did whatever Constantinople told them to do. And, if Churches like the Copts and the Jacobites turn out not to be Monophysite after all, then these men weren’t even the the legitimate bishops! But, the “Greek invaders” as the Copts and Syrians saw them.

So, in essence, the aforementioned Orthodox myth implies (nay, declares) that one must be Byzantine Greek in order to be in the Church. This is most anathema. 😉 And so much for the “poll of bishops” to determine orthodoxy. By 1054, Byzantium had done away with that replacing (rightly or wrongly) the legitimately-elected bishops of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem when they did not agree with the Byzantine decisions at Chalcedon. So, if Orthodoxy truly believes that correct doctrine is determined by a poll of the teachings of all bishops everywhere, then Orthodoxy is guilty of hypocrisy (from about 451 on).

Myth #3: An Ecumenical Council must be “Ratified” by the Laity

Myth number 3 is that an Ecumenical Council, even if agreed upon by all the bishops, cannot be ratified without the approval of the laity. In this, Orthodoxy gives the VERY wishy-washy reason of: “Well, we are all the Church.” Well, yes we are, but that’s not how Councils work. For example, the pro-Arian councils after Nicaea were approved by the people of the Eastern Empire (and for over 20 years!). Yet, did that make Arianism orthodox? In the same way, Nicaea was never “approved by the people.” It was declared to be so by the bishops and the Emperor. Same goes for all the other Ecumenical Councils including and especially Chalcedon, which was rejected by the majority of Christians in Egypt, Ethiopia, Armenia, Syria, and Palestine. So, where was the mandate from the laity here? 🙂

No, my friend Orthodox myth # 3 is a straw man, created to explain away why the Byzantines backed out of Lyon II and Ferrara-Florence – both cases in which ALL the Eastern Patriarchs approved of Western orthodoxy. This idea that “oh, well, the people must approve of it” is IMPERIAL in nature, not Spiritual or Ecclesiastical at all. For goodness sake, what did the average Greek know about the theology of Filioque?! Ah! But, they did know about the differences between East-West civilizations. And, if the “people” disapproved of Lyon and Ferrara-Florence, it wasn’t because the “Holy Spirit” was moving them! Come on! 🙂 It was because of their bigotry against those “Western barbarians,” who – as we all know – “couldn’t be right.” 🙂

So, again, Orthodoxy’s love affair with Imperium clouds its vision, even in matters of who are the “people of God.” Only the Greeks? I think not. 🙂 What about all the Westerners, and the Non-Chalcedonians? Why didn’t “the people” of the West or the Orient refuse to agree with the non-Conciliar heresy? Aren’t they anointed by the Spirit thru Baptism too? Or are only the “civilized Byzantines” given this charism? 🙂

(cont.)
 
Myth #4: An Ecumenical Council is Enough

And so, Myth # 4 ties all these together quite nicely. And that is the myth of the Ecumenical Council itself. Now, is an Ecumenical Council a good thing? Sure it is. However, is an Ecumenical Council enough? No. However, that is the Orthodox myth. That an Ecumenical Council is not a political exercise, but an aspect of Tradition. In this, they point to Acts 15 and say, “Well, the Apostles decided things via council. So, an Ecumenical Council where all bishops are polled is merely a reflection of Acts 15.”

🙂 Oh? Is it? Why don’t we take some time out and read Acts 15. What’s really going on there?

(This seems like enough for the moment. I’ll post more after some discussion of the above.)
 
Without Rome = Illicit, Heretical Council.
Wrong. The First Council of Constantinople was not attended by any western bishops at all. Not even any papal legates. It was basically a local Council, until accepted as ecumenical by the Council of Chalcedon, 70 years later. Between 381 and 451, was this council illicit and heretical? I don’t think so. Was it fair to say that during this time its authority was local, and not universal in scope? Of course. But heretical and illicit due to the non-participation of Rome? Not at all.
 
Myth #4: An Ecumenical Council is Enough

And so, Myth # 4 ties all these together quite nicely. And that is the myth of the Ecumenical Council itself. Now, is an Ecumenical Council a good thing? Sure it is. However, is an Ecumenical Council enough? No. However, that is the Orthodox myth. That an Ecumenical Council is not a political exercise, but an aspect of Tradition. In this, they point to Acts 15 and say, “Well, the Apostles decided things via council. So, an Ecumenical Council where all bishops are polled is merely a reflection of Acts 15.”

🙂 Oh? Is it? Why don’t we take some time out and read Acts 15. What’s really going on there?

(This seems like enough for the moment. I’ll post more after some discussion of the above.)
Thanks for all this Randy. I can’t respond right now, but will do so as soon as I have some free time. Needless to say I think there are one or two mistakes in what you’ve posted; on the bright side, since this is all copied and pasted it need not be imputed to you!

Best wishes,

N.
 
Thanks for all this Randy. I can’t respond right now, but will do so as soon as I have some free time. Needless to say I think there are one or two mistakes in what you’ve posted; on the bright side, since this is all copied and pasted it need not be imputed to you!

Best wishes,

N.
Yes, there is that, and I look forward to your rebuttal which I will read with equal interest.
 
Wrong. The First Council of Constantinople was not attended by any western bishops at all. Not even any papal legates. It was basically a local Council, until accepted as ecumenical by the Council of Chalcedon, 70 years later. Between 381 and 451, was this council illicit and heretical? I don’t think so. Was it fair to say that during this time its authority was local, and not universal in scope? Of course. But heretical and illicit due to the non-participation of Rome? Not at all.
The Catholic Encyclopedia says this:

This council was called in May, 381, by Emperor Theodosius, to provide for a Catholic succession in the patriarchal See of Constantinople, to confirm the Nicene Faith, to reconcile the semi-Arians with the Church, and to put an end to the Macedonian heresy.

Originally it was only a council of the Orient; the arguments of Baronius (ad an. 381, nos. 19, 20) to prove that it was called by Pope Damasus are invalid (Hefele-Leclercq, Hist. des Conciles, Paris, 1908, II, 4).** It was attended by 150 Catholic and 36 heretical (Semi-Arian, Macedonian) bishops**, and was presided over by Meletius of Antioch; after his death, by the successive Patriarchs of Constantinople, St. Gregory Nazianzen and Nectarius.

newadvent.org/cathen/04308a.htm

“Catholic” in the second paragraph does not have to mean “western”, I suppose, but who were these 150 ‘Catholic’ Bishops?
 
And heretical bishops have attended councils since we first started having councils. That’s kind of the point of councils: These people over here are wrong, and we need to show that their opinion is not accepted by the rest of the Church, and give them a chance to repent and return. Are you going to throw out Nicaea because it involved Arius?
 
And heretical bishops have attended councils since we first started having councils. That’s kind of the point of councils: These people over here are wrong, and we need to show that their opinion is not accepted by the rest of the Church, and give them a chance to repent and return. Are you going to throw out Nicaea because it involved Arius?
You who? Me?

Not sure who you are addressing…

If you are asking me, then I was simply responding to RyanBlack’s previous post which alleged that no western bishops had attended the first Council of Constantinople, but it appears that 150 “Catholic” bishops were there along with 36 Arians.

The issue at hand was not the presence of the Arians but the alleged absence of any western/Catholic bishops.

No doubt we will have to debate whether they were “Catholic” or “Orthodox” next. 😉
 
Ah, my apologies. When you highlighted the presence of the bishops as described in the Catholic Encyclopedia, I misunderstood the point you were trying to make.

On point with Ryan’s post, though (as you seem to agree when you write that “Catholic” doesn’t mean “Western”), we cannot say that it is not acceptable because no Western bishops attended. So you can hopefully see why I was confused as to what point you were actually making! :o (Since why are you highlighting what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about attendance at the council if you both seem to agree that no Western bishop attended, and that this does not “invalidate” the council?)
 
Ah, my apologies. When you highlighted the presence of the bishops as described in the Catholic Encyclopedia, I misunderstood the point you were trying to make.

On point with Ryan’s post, though (as you seem to agree when you write that “Catholic” doesn’t mean “Western”), we cannot say that it is not acceptable because no Western bishops attended. So you can hopefully see why I was confused as to what point you were actually making! :o (Since why are you highlighting what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about attendance at the council if you both seem to agree that no Western bishop attended, and that this does not “invalidate” the council?)
No worries.

Ryan is taking issue with Bonocore’s comment which is in the article fragment I posted earlier:

With Rome = Legitimate Ecumenical Council

Without Rome = Illicit, Heretical Council.

His contention seems to be that if no westerners attended, then the second line of that argument is disproved because Consantinople I was approved by a later council. I might point out that if 150 bishops loyal to Rome attended, then they were Roman by confession even if Eastern by birth. Thus, Bonocore stands.

Isn’t this fun? 😛
 
You who? Me?

Not sure who you are addressing…

If you are asking me, then I was simply responding to RyanBlack’s previous post which alleged that no western bishops had attended the first Council of Constantinople, but it appears that 150 “Catholic” bishops were there along with 36 Arians.

The issue at hand was not the presence of the Arians but the alleged absence of any western/Catholic bishops.

No doubt we will have to debate whether they were “Catholic” or “Orthodox” next. 😉
It’s not just my allegation. It is well known that there were no western bishops at the First Council of Constantinople. It was an eastern council.
 
It’s not just my allegation. It is well known that there were no western bishops at the First Council of Constantinople. It was an eastern council.
I probably chose my words poorly. I did not mean to dispute that no “western” bishops attended, but only to suggest that by at least one source 150 “Catholic” bishops did.

If true, then Bonocore’s argument is still valid because bishops loyal to Rome were in attendance. Thus, the council was not heretical and not illicit.
 
No worries.

Ryan is taking issue with Bonocore’s comment which is in the article fragment I posted earlier:

With Rome = Legitimate Ecumenical Council

Without Rome = Illicit, Heretical Council.

His contention seems to be that if no westerners attended, then the second line of that argument is disproved because Consantinople I was approved by a later council. I might point out that if 150 bishops loyal to Rome attended, then they were Roman by confession even if Eastern by birth. Thus, Bonocore stands.

Isn’t this fun? 😛
No, Bonocore does not stand. Rome did not participate in this council. These bishops did not seek the approval of Rome for attending this council, and they did not seek the approval of Rome after the council. They acted in order to address what was essentially a local problem with the Macedonian and Apollinarian heresies, which, really, were not universal problems. The issue of the acceptance of the council by the entire Church came up at Chalcedon, 70 years later.
 
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