Sola Fide Contradiction

[Odell]

**
; their life is changed for good and forever. I can look back on my old self and clearly see a new self;.**

Wait a minute I thought you where just dung and had nothing to offer

I think your confused

 

[JRKH]

**
The contradictions I have seem here seem to come from within your own party; the Protestants here seem to be on the same page and from what I have read are very consistent in their understanding of Scripture. However; you must know and understand a great deal more information, which adds to the problem among Catholics; obviously some are better than others.

A true believer does and can know if they have the resident Holy Spirit; wouldn’t make sense to have the mind of Christ and Spirit and not know it; God is not a mystery when it comes to what He has chosen to reveal to us. I will say when one receives the Holy Spirit; their life is changed for good and forever. I can look back on my old self and clearly see a new self; more importantly in some ways, the people closest to me can see it as well. I can also tell you that nearly every thought, word and deed that comes about in any given day is fixated on the Trinity. I can’t turn it off; it is always there. I am very thankful for that as well.

1 Corinthians 2:10-13 & 16b For to us God revealed {them} through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the {thoughts} of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit,…But we have the mind of Christ.**

I will believe the “consistancy of the Protestants” in “their understanding of Scripture” when there is but ONE Protestant Church. So long as there are thousands with varying doctrines, your assertion falls flat. And since you are basing this “consistancy” on an “indwelling of the Spirit”, you must believe that the "Spirit tells one community one thing and another something else.

I also find it interesting that, in all of my post you selected but one point to address. Then you totally ignored the fact that Jesus Himself gave us the commandment, the “Sola” if you will, of LOVE. Also that Paul backs Him up on this.

Christ taught, faith AND action. Efforts on the parts of heaven AND men to achieve Salvation. Most of the rest of it is nothing more than idle discourse and posturing.
The only thing that gets me is the tendancy of some non-catholics of trying to tell Catholics what we believe.

Peace
James

 

[Seeking12]

Wait a minute I thought you where just dung and had nothing to offer

I think your confused

**That is how one sees himself before God when one comes to God; praise be to God, we are new creatures for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I was once very confused; now I have the mind of Christ.**

 

[Seeking12]

I will believe the “consistancy of the Protestants” in “their understanding of Scripture” when there is but ONE Protestant Church. So long as there are thousands with varying doctrines, your assertion falls flat. And since you are basing this “consistancy” on an “indwelling of the Spirit”, you must believe that the "Spirit tells one community one thing and another something else.

I also find it interesting that, in all of my post you selected but one point to address. Then you totally ignored the fact that Jesus Himself gave us the commandment, the “Sola” if you will, of LOVE. Also that Paul backs Him up on this.

Christ taught, faith AND action. Efforts on the parts of heaven AND men to achieve Salvation. Most of the rest of it is nothing more than idle discourse and posturing.
The only thing that gets me is the tendancy of some non-catholics of trying to tell Catholics what we believe.

Peace
James

**James, There is no greater love than to share the gospel and point to error concerning some other gospel, but you do not want to listen.

Your gospel is different than that of Christ; so you have been shown a better way and a correct way, but you do not believe. What love would there be to say yes; your are correct and I’ll see you in heaven, when I know this is not the case.

God saves whom He wills according to His purpose and He does not need help from anyone or any group; He has not hidden His truth at the Vatican.

I have spoken on why their are so many interpretations of Scripture; that is not just a Protestant issue, but a Catholic issues as well. But, this is because most people profess, but only a few possess Christ; so you can expect to see this; this is not surprising to any Christian when you try to make a point on it; it is futile because I don’t disagree. Also; part of what makes the Bible supernatural is that common people cannot understand even some of the most basic and obvious things; all part of God’s plan.**

 

[Odell]

**That is how one sees himself before God when one comes to God; praise be to God, we are new creatures for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I was once very confused; now I have the mind of Christ.**

You said in another thred you were dung

So you must just recently became a new creature because you were dung not long ago
So if you was confused then could the forums contributed to your mind of Christ?

 

[Seeking12]

You said in another thred you were dung

So you must just recently became a new creature because you were dung not long ago
So if you was confused then could the forums contributed to your mind of Christ?

**
Other than being annoying without any substance; go back and look at the context of the discussion and then go make a real point somewhere. If you are that bored, start a new thread or something.**

 

[guanophore]

Lets say He did a good work, which He didn’t, what you refer to as a good work is a profession of faith and a repentant heart of confession.

The Apostles taught that repentance and professon of faith is something that human beings are responsible to do before God. It is our “work”. This is the “work” that Jesus said we must do.

But nevertheless; which came first the faith or the work? It is the same with water baptism; the saving faith always comes first.

The Apostles do not separate them, so we do not either, since we have received the Apostolic faith as it was committed once for all to the Church , 2000 years ago.

You have another gospel that will lead you to the pit.

I can understand why it would seem that way to you.

Seeking12, if you wish to remain on CAF, it is important that you refrain from making statements of this kind. You are welcome here to ask questions about the Catholic faith,a nd to dialogue about differences, but insulting our faith is not permitted.

There is no greater love than to share the gospel and point to error concerning some other gospel,

Actually, there is a greater love. Jesus taught that the greater love is laying down our lives for others. I don’t think breezing into an internet forum and pointing out the errors and shortcomings of others qualifies.

but you do not want to listen.

Actually, I think people here have worked very hard to listen to you, even though you have been pretty rude and insulting at times.

You must also take into account that we are not here to be an evangelistic mission for you, but to answer questions about the Catholic faith. You seem more motivated to convince us that we believe your erroneous ideas of what the Catholic church teaches than to learn what we actually believe.

Your gospel is different than that of Christ; so you have been shown a better way and a correct way, but you do not believe. What love would there be to say yes; your are correct and I’ll see you in heaven, when I know this is not the case.

Perhaps you work here is done?

God saves whom He wills according to His purpose and He does not need help from anyone or any group; He has not hidden His truth at the Vatican.

No one ever said He did.

I have spoken on why their are so many interpretations of Scripture; that is not just a Protestant issue, but a Catholic issues as well.

It is an issue of those who refuse to submit to the authority appointed by Christ. Yes, we find this spiritual rebellion among Catholics as well as Protestants.

**
Other than being annoying without any substance; go back and look at the context of the discussion and then go make a real point somewhere. If you are that bored, start a new thread or something.**

Is this impudent attitude part of the new you, or the old?

 

[JonNC]

=Seeking12;4870789]Jon, you are joking I hope.
Not at all.

1) All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Not True

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.” The offer is open to all, the slavation is for all, not some selected group.

1. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament - Not true - that is another gospel.

What part of this is another gospel? How else does the Holy Spirit bring us His gift of faith except by word and sacrament?
That IS the Gospel!

1. true evidence of the Holy Spirit moving to bring Christians together. Not True You will never see the physical body of Christ in unity while we are in sinful nature; believers are united in Christ through the Holy Spirit.

In him all things are possible. Somewhere in this thread you accused someone else of blasphemy, for claiming to know the attributes of God, yet here you seek to limit the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jon

 

[Odell]

**
Other than being annoying without any substance; go back and look at the context of the discussion and then go make a real point somewhere. If you are that bored, start a new thread or something.**

I took your advice here is the context

**You put your faith in an institution; that I don’t understand. You lack the basic understanding of Jesus church.

If you have a heart for God; realizing** you have nothing to offer God because compared to Him you are dung,**** put your faith in Christ alone with a true heart of repentance and believe that God raised Him from the dead; you will be saved!

Either you have something to offer God and we don’t because we are dung

Or we as in you and us have nothing to offer because we are both dung

Would you clarify? who are you refering to as dung?

But wait

If WE have a heart for God we would realize WE are dung

If you don’t realize your dung then you don’t have a heart for God

See the problem?

Need more help?

**That is how one sees himself before God when one comes to God; praise be to God, we are new creatures for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I was once very confused; now I have the mind of Christ.**

So now that you have come to God you no longer have a heart for God because you realize your a new creature and not dung anymore

Only those who have a heart for God realize they are dung

Tell me which one was you being led by The spirit because you messed up on one of them?

 

[Odell]

Is this impudent attitude part of the new you, or the old?

I think he is full of “dung”

 

[JRKH]

James, There is no greater love than to share the gospel and point to error concerning some other gospel, but you do not want to listen.

As others have pointed out, you have come to our house and, rather than engage in discussions based on Christian Love, you have made pronouncements and little more than disjointed arguments. I am more than happy to eengage in sincere dialoge which many here both Catholic and Protestant will attest.

Your gospel is different than that of Christ; so you have been shown a better way and a correct way, but you do not believe.

If you had the true indwelling of the Holy Spirit you could never say this. For Christ Gave us Both the Spirit and The Church guide us into all truth. Christ then guided His Church to Assemble and utilize the Bible to assure the consistancy of His message as taught by His Church. That Church thus guided has consistantly taught the Gospel message from the earliest times to today. Try reading the Early Church Fathers if you don’t believe me.
You have been shown many errors in your interpretation but you choose not to believe.

What love would there be to say yes; your are correct and I’ll see you in heaven, when I know this is not the case.

And so, once again you proncounce judgement upon me without a)knowing me or my standing with the Lord or b) knowing what the Catholic Church truly teaches. This is a grave disservice to yourself and to your fellow Christians.
However, I will not make any judgement on you since I am not God and only He can make judgement.
I do forgive you for your rash statements. May God have mercy upon you as well.

God saves whom He wills according to His purpose and He does not need help from anyone or any group; He has not hidden His truth at the Vatican.

You are absolutely right here and it is a very Catholic position. The Truth is certainly not hidden in the Vatican. The Church, headquartered in the Vatican, proclaims the Gospel in every corner of the world to all who will listen. In addition you need only type Vatican into a search engine to find the website and access to a huge amount of research and teaching.
Also the Catachism is readily available on line as are any number of scholarly articles and histories.
No - you are absolutely right - Jesus has Not Hidden His truth at the Vatican. However He HAS taught the FULLNESS of Truth through the Catholic Church. Protected and Guided By the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore you are correct in saying that God doesn’t, “need anyone or any group”. However God has always chosen to use people and groups to do His will. Noah - Abraham - The Jews - The Church - All tools in the hands of God as he draws us toward Him, that is all who will follow.

I have spoken on why their are so many interpretations of Scripture; that is not just a Protestant issue, but a Catholic issues as well.

Nice - except your statement earlier was that Protestants are consistant in their interpretations. As I said above, If one wishes - really wishes - to learn what the Church believes, the documentation is readily available.

But, this is because most people profess, but only a few possess Christ; so you can expect to see this; this is not surprising to any Christian when you try to make a point on it; it is futile because I don’t disagree.

I’m not entirely what you are saying here. However I do agree that, in ANY group, you will find people at many stages along their journey and also those who are really not making much of an effort.
As for myself, I grow daily in my walk with Christ through trial, study, prayer, discipline, and regular access to Mass and the Holy Eucharist.

Also; part of what makes the Bible supernatural is that common people cannot understand even some of the most basic and obvious things; all part of God’s plan.

I guess I must assume that you believe that I am “common” and that you are not.
Oh well. I shall be a common follower of Christ through His Church and in the Company of the Apostles and Saints who have held and taught the Gospel for 2000 years.

This I do know -
I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which was given to me at Baptism.
That indwelling was re-affirmed in me at my confirmation into the Church.
It was returned to me once again when I returned to the Church after 35 years in the wilderness.
That indwelling is reaffirmed each time I take the Holy Eucharist and receive the Body, Blood , Soul, and Divinity of Christ into me physically.
I am greatful every day for the light He has given me through Holy Mother Church.
That Spirit, and the undeserved Love of my heavenly Father, has seen me through some very tough times and continues to do so.

I will continue to do all I can, relying completely upon His Love and Grace, to grow in Holiness, to draw closer to God and to be happy with Him forever in Heaven.

As for you and your views, I can only pray.

Peace
James

 

[Seeking12]

Not at all.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.” The offer is open to all, the salvation is for all, not some selected group. **It is open to whosoever will; obviously that is not all. The one’s that will believe are the one’s God has called and the called were predetermined.
**

What part of this is another gospel? How else does the Holy Spirit bring us His gift of faith except by word and sacrament?
That IS the Gospel!

You want find sacrament(s) in Scripture; that is predominately Catholic.

In him all things are possible. Somewhere in this thread you accused someone else of blasphemy, for claiming to know the attributes of God, yet here you seek to limit the power of the Holy Spirit.
It is implicit in Scripture; I leave it to you to find it. If memory serve me right; John you will find it.
Jon

 

[Seeking12]

As others have pointed out, you have come to our house and, rather than engage in discussions based on Christian Love, you have made pronouncements and little more than disjointed arguments. I am more than happy to eengage in sincere dialoge which many here both Catholic and Protestant will attest.

If you had the true indwelling of the Holy Spirit you could never say this. For Christ Gave us Both the Spirit and The Church guide us into all truth. Christ then guided His Church to Assemble and utilize the Bible to assure the consistancy of His message as taught by His Church. That Church thus guided has consistantly taught the Gospel message from the earliest times to today. Try reading the Early Church Fathers if you don’t believe me.
You have been shown many errors in your interpretation but you choose not to believe.

And so, once again you proncounce judgement upon me without a)knowing me or my standing with the Lord or b) knowing what the Catholic Church truly teaches. This is a grave disservice to yourself and to your fellow Christians.
However, I will not make any judgement on you since I am not God and only He can make judgement.
I do forgive you for your rash statements. May God have mercy upon you as well.

You are absolutely right here and it is a very Catholic position. The Truth is certainly not hidden in the Vatican. The Church, headquartered in the Vatican, proclaims the Gospel in every corner of the world to all who will listen. In addition you need only type Vatican into a search engine to find the website and access to a huge amount of research and teaching.
Also the Catachism is readily available on line as are any number of scholarly articles and histories.
No - you are absolutely right - Jesus has Not Hidden His truth at the Vatican. However He HAS taught the FULLNESS of Truth through the Catholic Church. Protected and Guided By the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore you are correct in saying that God doesn’t, “need anyone or any group”. However God has always chosen to use people and groups to do His will. Noah - Abraham - The Jews - The Church - All tools in the hands of God as he draws us toward Him, that is all who will follow.

Nice - except your statement earlier was that Protestants are consistant in their interpretations. As I said above, If one wishes - really wishes - to learn what the Church believes, the documentation is readily available. Go back and check; I said the Protestants in this forum have been consistent.

I’m not entirely what you are saying here. However I do agree that, in ANY group, you will find people at many stages along their journey and also those who are really not making much of an effort.
As for myself, I grow daily in my walk with Christ through trial, study, prayer, discipline, and regular access to Mass and the Holy Eucharist.

I guess I must assume that you believe that I am “common” and that you are not. Common was not the best choice of words for sure.
Oh well. I shall be a common follower of Christ through His Church and in the Company of the Apostles and Saints who have held and taught the Gospel for 2000 years.

This I do know -
I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which was given to me at Baptism. But you have doubts and are not 100% sure
That indwelling was re-affirmed in me at my confirmation into the Church.
It was returned to me once again when I returned to the Church after 35 years in the wilderness.
That indwelling is reaffirmed each time I take the Holy Eucharist and receive the Body, Blood , Soul, and Divinity of Christ into me physically.
I am greatful every day for the light He has given me through Holy Mother Church.
That Spirit, and the undeserved Love of my heavenly Father, has seen me through some very tough times and continues to do so.

I will continue to do all I can, relying completely upon His Love and Grace, to grow in Holiness, to draw closer to God and to be happy with Him forever in Heaven. Read your own post and look at your own words and pretend someone else wrote it, then ask yourself; who does this person that wrote this post put their trust in…try it.

As for you and your views, I can only pray.

Peace
James

James; I appreciate your convictions and you certainly hold fast to your faith. Thanks for all of your time and energies. God bless you James!

 

[DavWan]

It is open to whosoever will; obviously that is not all. The one’s that will believe are the one’s God has called and the called were predetermined.

Which again perverts the citation. If God only gives it to some to be saved, then God is to blame for those who are damned, and not to the individual who is not given the ability to accept.

I find it rather blasphemous to hold such a position

You want find sacrament(s) in Scripture; that is predominately Catholic.

Unless the Scripture of the New Testament was written by Catholics [and if you deny that, what was the first church?]

It is implicit in Scripture; I leave it to you to find it. If memory serve me right; John you will find it.

So, do you deny that the Holy Spirit is God? If you do, you deny the Trinity. if you do not, then how can the Holy Spirit be limited?

 

[Seeking12]

I took your advice here is the context
Great, now try to get the context correct, then follow the previous advice and get a life.

Seeking:

If you have a heart for God; realizing you have nothing to offer God because compared to Him you are dung, put your faith in Christ alone with a true heart of repentance and believe that God raised Him from the dead; you will be saved!

This is the description of what happens when God opens your eyes of unbelief; ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the Kingdom of God’ The poor tax collector is a perfect biblical example of this. God described us as filthy rags and in the Greek it is synonymous to a womans menstral rag. So you see, God is in agreement with my description and Paul also confirmed His previous life was counted as dung.

Either you have something to offer God and we don’t because we are dung

Or we as in you and us have nothing to offer because we are both dung

Would you clarify? who are you refering to as dung?

But wait

If WE have a heart for God we would realize WE are dung

If you don’t realize your dung then you don’t have a heart for God

See the problem?

Need more help?

So now that you have come to God you no longer have a heart for God because you realize your a new creature and not dung anymore

Only those who have a heart for God realize they are dung

Tell me which one was you being led by The spirit because you messed up on one of them?

I feel sorry for you; what are you 12 or 13?

 

[DavWan]

I feel sorry for you; what are you 12 or 13?

Run out of arguments, have we?

 

[Seeking12]

Which again perverts the citation. If God only gives it to some to be saved, then God is to blame for those who are damned, and not to the individual who is not given the ability to accept.

**Have you not read what the Scripture says? This is one of the great paradoxes in all of Scripture; God’s will or man’s will or both?

‘What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?’

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 {even} us, whom He also called
**
I find it rather blasphemous to hold such a position **Fortunately; it is Gods position; so where is the blasphemy?; perhaps the mirror. **

Unless the Scripture of the New Testament was written by Catholics [and if you deny that, what was the first church?] ** Who is the author of Scripture?**

So, do you deny that the Holy Spirit is God? If you do, you deny the Trinity. if you do not, then how can the Holy Spirit be limited?

 

[JRKH]

Read your own post and look at your own words and pretend someone else wrote it, then ask yourself; who does this person that wrote this post put their trust in…try it.

I know what I have written and in whom I place may trust. Your problem seems to be that once you see the word “Church” as in Catholic, you want to throw everything else out. I place my Trust in God and in His Church which HE gave us. It is that simple.
Of course If you had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you would understand that.

James; I appreciate your convictions and you certainly hold fast to your faith. Thanks for all of your time and energies. God bless you James!

Your welcome. I hope I have been able to help educate you some and help you clear up some errors.

Peace
James

 

[DavWan]

Have you not read what the Scripture says? This is one of the great paradoxes in all of Scripture; God’s will or man’s will or both?

‘What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?’

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 {even} us, whom He also called

A sad misinterpretation. That God knows who will accept Him does not mean only those who do were made to do so before hand. He is talking of the claim that if some Jews were not saved after God made a promise to the Jews, that God is breaking His promise when Gentiles who accept His will are saved while Jews who do not are damned. God has not destroyed those who deserve it for the sake of those He will not destroy.

So yes, I think your view is still blasphemous because it imputes to God something He never said and makes Him out to be arbitrary and evil when Paul shows He is not.

 

[Odell]

I feel sorry for you; what are you 12 or 13?

So simple a 12 year old would have understood the question

Ill put it on a 3 year old level

Are you a new creation or are you dung?

Pick one flip a quarter something

Or avoid my question all together