Sola Fide Contradiction

[tmac1956]

**That is how one sees himself before God when one comes to God; praise be to God, we are new creatures for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I was once very confused; now I have the mind of Christ.**

So you say…

 

[JonNC]

Seeking12;4875508]

It is open to whosoever will; obviously that is not all. The one’s that will believe are the one’s God has called and the called were predetermined.
No, it is open to all. That some choose to reject it does not eliminate the offer. God calls all.

You want find sacrament(s) in Scripture; that is predominately Catholic.

Actually, it is predominately catholic, from the earliest Church to the vast majority even today, including my Lutheran Church and many others.

Jon

 

[Seeking12]

It is open to whosoever will; obviously that is not all. The one’s that will believe are the one’s God has called and the called were predetermined.

No, it is open to all. That some choose to reject it does not eliminate the offer. God calls all.

Actually, it is predominately catholic, from the earliest Church to the vast majority even today, including my Lutheran Church and many others.

Jon

**Jon,

What does the Bible teach about the religious “many” you just referred to?

Look very carefully at the last 6 or 7 words in Matthew 7:14; read it out loud to yourself 2 or 3 times and wait for the impact.**

 

[JonNC]

No, it is open to all. That some choose to reject it does not eliminate the offer. God calls all.

Actually, it is predominately catholic, from the earliest Church to the vast majority even today, including my Lutheran Church and many others.

Jon

**Jon,

What does the Bible teach about the religious “many” you just referred to?

Look very carefully at the last 6 or 7 words in Matthew 7:14; read it out loud to yourself 2 or 3 times and wait for the impact.**

Because there are few who find it, that doesn’t mean it is only meant for or available to a few. In John 3:16, we don’t read that God loved just a few in the world, and “whosoever” clearly implies salvation through Christ is open all people.
Even Calvin:

On John 3:16 – “He has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers…He shows Himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when He invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ.”

Jon

 

[Seeking12]

**Jon,

What does the Bible teach about the religious “many” you just referred to?

Look very carefully at the last 6 or 7 words in Matthew 7:14; read it out loud to yourself 2 or 3 times and wait for the impact.**

Because there are few who find it, that doesn’t mean it is only meant for or available to a few. In John 3:16, we don’t read that God loved just a few in the world, and “whosoever” clearly implies salvation through Christ is open all people.
Even Calvin:
Jon

**Jon do you see the paradox? How many people would come to God if left to their own? What does the Bible teach in this regard?

I think you and I may be on two different roads going in the same direction. You are looking through mans eye view and I am looking at Gods eye view; meaning the man that wants to come can make that choice if he were able to; but from Gods eye view he already made the determination before we were even made…that is why I think we are in the same direction just a different road and this is the paradox. God said He desires all men to be saved; this is your thinking all, but the other reality is that God already made that decision and it is the few.**

 

[JonNC]

=Seeking12;4878613]Jon do you see the paradox? How many people would come to God if left to their own? What does the Bible teach in this regard?

The answer, of course, is none! Only the HS can, because of Grace, open our hearts to faith in Jesus Christ. He does this through Baptism, and the hearing of the Word.

I think you and I may be on two different roads going in the same direction. You are looking through mans eye view and I am looking at Gods eye view; meaning the man that wants to come can make that choice if he were able to; but from Gods eye view he already made the determination before we were even made…that is why I think we are in the same direction just a different road and this is the paradox. God said He desires all men to be saved; this is your thinking all, but the other reality is that God already made that decision and it is the few.

With respect, I don’t think we are on the same direction. I flatly reject what I consider the unbiblical calvinistic notions of limited atonement and double predestination. To me it portrays a cruel God who deceives people into believing they are saved, that Christ’s sacrifice was for them, when in fact it is not and they are not.

Jon

 

[Seeking12]

The answer, of course, is none! Only the HS can, because of Grace, open our hearts to faith in Jesus Christ. He does this through Baptism, and the hearing of the Word.

With respect, I don’t think we are on the same direction. I flatly reject what I consider the unbiblical calvinistic notions of limited atonement and double predestination. To me it portrays a cruel God who deceives people into believing they are saved, that Christ’s sacrifice was for them, when in fact it is not and they are not.

Jon

Isn’t that denying the reality, even inside of your own church? Sounds like and correct me if I am wrong, you do not believe the Bible teaches the Doctrine of Election.

 

[JonNC]

Isn’t that denying the reality, even inside of your own church? Sounds like and correct me if I am wrong, you do not believe the Bible teaches the Doctrine of Election.

There is an election to salvation, but not to damnation.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=576

But as earnestly as we maintain that there is an election of grace, or a predestination to salvation, so decidedly do we teach, on the other hand, that there is no election of wrath, or predestination to damnation. Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces all men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: “God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. – Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.

Jon

 

[Seeking12]

There is an election to salvation, but not to damnation.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=576

Jon

**
Mans will intertwined with Gods will; Gods will always prevails. Intuitively, since God predestined all men; by default the ones not part of the elect are the non-elect. But as I said; this is a great paradox because the Bible clearly teaches that people go to hell for non-belief.
Have a great day Jon and thanks for the insightful thoughts.**

 

[guanophore]

"Jon:

No, it is open to all.  That some choose to reject it does not eliminate the offer.  God calls all.

Actually, it is predominately catholic, from the earliest Church to the vast majority even today, including my Lutheran Church and many others.

Jon

,

What does the Bible teach …

Actually, the Bible does not “teach” at all. This is an activity that requires a person. Often those who believe they are being “taught” by the book are taught by themselves, and they believe the HS, or by a pastor or teacher outside of scripture.

 

[guanophore]

**
Mans will intertwined with Gods will; Gods will always prevails. **

It is God’s will that, though He desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, some will choose not to do so. He has ordained that those who choose not to have eternal fellowship with Him will be permitted not to do so. If this were not the case, the rebellion of Lucifer and the fallen angels would somehow compromise His sovereignty, and we know that cannot be the case.

** Intuitively, since God predestined all men; by default the ones not part of the elect are the non-elect. But as I said; this is a great paradox because the Bible clearly teaches that people go to hell for non-belief. **

Actutally, the Bible does not “teach”, since this is an activity that can only be performed by persons.

God calls all to repentance. Some refuse, and therefore “are condemned already because they do not believe.”

 

[Seeking12]

It is God’s will that, though He desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, some will choose not to do so. He has ordained that those who choose not to have eternal fellowship with Him will be permitted not to do so. If this were not the case, the rebellion of Lucifer and the fallen angels would somehow compromise His sovereignty, and we know that cannot be the case.
So again the paradox of mans will and Gods will.

Actutally, the Bible does not “teach”, since this is an activity that can only be performed by persons.

God calls all to repentance. Some refuse, and therefore “are condemned already because they do not believe.”

**The person is the Holy Spirit the author of Scripture; “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching”

My Bible teaches a lot to me; does yours have any words on it? Just kidding with you.**

 

[guanophore]

The person is the Holy Spirit the author of Scripture; “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching”

we are in agreement the hs does teach through the Scripture. yet, the hs will not teach anything contrary to what has already been revealed to the Church.

That hs has revealed the the office of Teaching was entrusted to the Church by Christ.

The teachers appointed by Christ use scripture to teach because scripture is profitable in that activity.

My Bible teaches a lot to me;

i am sure you sincerely believe this, but since scripture is not a person, scripture cannot perform this function. What you are doing is reading the book, and drawing conclusions based upon your experience and knowledge (or lack therof)

does yours have any words on it?

Indeed yes, and just like all other words, they go through the filter of my mind.

 

[SteveGC]

**
Mans will intertwined with Gods will; Gods will always prevails. Intuitively, since God predestined all men; by default the ones not part of the elect are the non-elect. But as I said; this is a great paradox because the Bible clearly teaches that people go to hell for non-belief.
**

Thought this Q&A from EWTN would help others who are reading this thread understand the mystery of man’s will in connection with God’s will, from the Church’s perspective…
EWTN Q&A:

Predestination vs freewill
*Question from on 08-06-2008: *
before i go directly to my question, i just would like to clarify something first.Jesus died to save mankind. So this gives us the assurance that everyone is already saved? And in connection to this,since we are already saved, then in one way or another, it has been what we are destined to be. then holding on to that fact that we are already predestined towards an end that Jesus had assured us, then what is still the purpose of free will?why is there a need for choices to us to make if no matter what choice we make, we are still sure that we will be saved? im really confused about this matter…thanks in advance…

**Answer by David Gregson on 08-22-2008: **
It’s true that Jesus died for all mankind, but that doesn’t mean all mankind will be saved. The death of Christ was sufficient for the salvation of all, in atoning for the sins of all who repent. That’s where free will comes in. No one is forced to repent, and no one who does not repent will be saved.
It’s true also that those who are predestined to salvation will be saved, but predestination to salvation includes our freely willing to repent and follow Christ. It sounds like a contradiction, that we could be predestined to will freely, but that’s a mystery we can’t solve. It’s best to leave predestination in God’s hands and concentrate on our part, which is to will to do what He commands.

No one can know whether he is predestined to salvation, but we have a good indication of our predestination as long as we are faithful in following Christ. If we fall away from Christ, we have grounds for concern, but not despair. If we are concerned, it is because God is calling us back, and if we go back, confessing our sins and receiving absolution, then once again we may have grounds for confidence in our salvation.

 

[Seeking12]

we are in agreement the hs does teach through the Scripture. yet, the hs will not teach anything contrary to what has already been revealed to the Church.

That hs has revealed the the office of Teaching was entrusted to the Church by Christ.

The teachers appointed by Christ use scripture to teach because scripture is profitable in that activity.

i am sure you sincerely believe this, but since scripture is not a person, scripture cannot perform this function. What you are doing is reading the book, and drawing conclusions based upon your experience and knowledge (or lack therof)

Indeed yes, and just like all other words, they go through the filter of my mind.

I’m not real sure where you got the notion that you cannot learn from books; it is one of the silliest arguments I have seen you come up with. If you are playing semantics; then play by yourself. In college I learned more from my books then I ever did the professors.

 

[Seeking12]

Thought this Q&A from EWTN would help others who are reading this thread understand the mystery of man’s will in connection with God’s will, from the Church’s perspective…

**Thanks for the posting. I do disagree primarily that one cannot know if they are saved. Surely the Apostles knew they were saved while on earth and the purpose of 1 John states in no uncertain terms that we can know.

Also 2 Peter 1 is telling us about that certainty; my conclusion is if you don’t know, then you are in constant sin or you are not saved at all. How can saints have the mind of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not know it? How can someone who has a transformed life not see the old man in light of the new man?**

 

[guanophore]

I’m not real sure where you got the notion that you cannot learn from books;

I am not sure where you got the notion I thought that.

Of course we can learn from books!

Books don’t “teach” though. Teaching and learning are activities that are human. The books, of themselves, do not “teach”. They contain information that it is possible for us to learn. It is also possible to misunderstand what is written in books.

it is one of the silliest arguments I have seen you come up with.

I agree. I turns out your posts are full of silly ideas that you blame on Catholics.

If you are playing semantics; then play by yourself. In college I learned more from my books then I ever did the professors.

I believe you, as a matter of fact, so did I. You and I learned because we are persons, and persons are capable of learning. Books are not capable of learning, or teaching. The Bible does not “teach”.

**Thanks for the posting. I do disagree primarily that one cannot know if they are saved. Surely the Apostles knew they were saved while on earth and the purpose of 1 John states in no uncertain terms that we can know.

Also 2 Peter 1 is telling us about that certainty; my conclusion is if you don’t know, then you are in constant sin or you are not saved at all. How can saints have the mind of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not know it? How can someone who has a transformed life not see the old man in light of the new man?**

The Apostles taught that there are some aspects of salvation (especially initial justification) that are complete. Some aspects (sanctification) we are working out during this lifetime, and some aspects (like glorification) we do not achieve until this life is over. The Apostles’ taught that we leave judgement to God, and that the mature attitude is not to consider that one has attained (arrived).

 

[Odell]

**Thanks for the posting. I do disagree primarily that one cannot know if they are saved. Surely the Apostles knew they were saved while on earth and the purpose of 1 John states in no uncertain terms that we can know.

Also 2 Peter 1 is telling us about that certainty; my conclusion is if you don’t know, then you are in constant sin or you are not saved at all. How can saints have the mind of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not know it? How can someone who has a transformed life not see the old man in light of the new man?**

How can someone who in dung consider themselves a new man? Much lest saved?

 

[SteveGC]

I’m not real sure where you got the notion that you cannot learn from books; it is one of the silliest arguments I have seen you come up with. If you are playing semantics; then play by yourself. In college I learned more from my books then I ever did the professors.

I suppose one could argue that a book “teaches”, if of course it is understood that it is, in fact, the actual author(s) that are doing the “teaching”, and the book is the medium by which they do it. I believe this is what you were trying to tell us, Seeking. And I would say that you would also rephrase it specifically to say “The Holy Spirit teaches me alot through Scripture”.

And I do agree, in that sense only, a book can teach - and certainly the Holy Spirit (the author of Scripture) can teach. I guess the real question is…is the HS a personal tutor for someone reading Scripture outside of the authority He had been sent to protect? Of course, you would unequivocally deny such authority to the Catholic Church, we get that. And so, the point is moot I suppose.

And yet, I can’t help but wonder…

Does it not bother you, Seeking, that you do not know who or where your fellow believers are? who or where your “church” is? That would bug me a little if I were in your position. I mean, is it that it doesn’t matter that you have no one else to share with that holds to all the same fundamental Christian “truths” that you do? Perhaps you would say you DO have plenty of fellow believers…but I would then ask, are you SURE they believe in everything you do…atleast ALL the salvific essentials? If so, how many of you do you think there might be in the world? And if not, I’m curious what it feels like for a lone, solitary Christian to experience an assurance of essential truths about salvation. Perhaps you could shed some light on that for me.

The point I’m trying to make is…you believe what you believe because you hold to the sense that the Holy Spirit is guiding you through Scripture, or atleast, is validating through your reading everything you learned outside of Scripture (from scholars, pastors, etc). Do you not wonder sometimes, that this “sense” you have (perhaps of being one of the elect), is not a misguided sense that a fallen angel, a dark Spirit is filling you with? I get a feeling you do, in fact, pray alot. And so, I understand if you would argue that your devotion to prayer for Christian enlightenment assures you that this is not the case, that in fact, it IS the Holy Spirit revealing truth to you. If that’s true, OK. But I thought I’d ask you the question anyway. What do you think?

God Bless

 

[Seeking12]

I am not sure where you got the notion I thought that.

Of course we can learn from books!

Books don’t “teach” though. Teaching and learning are activities that are human. The books, of themselves, do not “teach”. They contain information that it is possible for us to learn. It is also possible to misunderstand what is written in books.

I agree. I turns out your posts are full of silly ideas that you blame on Catholics.

I believe you, as a matter of fact, so did I. You and I learned because we are persons, and persons are capable of learning. Books are not capable of learning, or teaching. The Bible does not “teach”.

The Apostles taught that there are some aspects of salvation (especially initial justification) that are complete. Some aspects (sanctification) we are working out during this lifetime, and some aspects (like glorification) we do not achieve until this life is over. The Apostles’ taught that we leave judgement to God, and that the mature attitude is not to consider that one has attained (arrived).

The Bible says it teaches; do you not believe the living Word? Seems like we covered this already a few times.