Sola Fide Contradiction

[Seeking12]

Yes I thought as much.

Let us, for a moment look at the context of that verse,
You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

So what is Paul saying about the Sacred Writings?
First he mentions, “From Whom - not what - You learned them”, speaking of Timothy’s faith.
Second He recognizes the value of Sacred writings for giving wisdom
Then He goes on to say WHY they are valuable and that is because they are profitable for teaching…

Since this discussion is a sidelight to the actual discussion of the thread, I will not be-labor the point but suffice it to say this.

The Bible contains the word of God - BUT, my owning a Bible has nothing to do with my salvation. If I READ, that is take in and process the words of the Bible, I am helped on my way to salvation - Assuming of course that I am properly disposed to properly read and interpret the texts that were written down nearly 2000 years ago.
This is why God, in His infinite Wisdom, gave us the Church, and the Holy Spirit, to help guide us on our journey and keep us on course. So that we may, like St Paul Says, “Know from whom we learned them.”

Peace
James

Unfortunately the Bible says God gave us His spirit to lead us to the truth of Scripture and did not bother to mention the Catholic Church. So if your interpretive skills tells you that it is there, then stick with what you believe to be true. I don’t see the point you were trying to make above, but to downplay the role of Scripture in leading one to Christ, which is salvation, then that is your view. Paul taught Timothy what Christ taught him; which the OT spoke of Christ and was always pointing the way of faith. What makes God’s Word so powerful is that unlike a regular book; this is the living Word of God; it is supernatural. There is nothing lacking in God’s word for salvation and Christian living in my opinion.

 

[SteveGC]

**If you attach conditions to grace, then it is no longer grace. If you claim God attaches conditions to His grace and that He can take it away or that He will let His own walk away, then you make God something that He is not. **

Sorry, jumping in here uninvited, but I wanted to ask…
If a father tells their child that they have permission to go to the movies, IF they clean up their room (which is perpetually filthy), does the fact that the child must clean up their room detract from, or somehow erase, the authority and power of permission the father possesses?
Grace is the authority and power of permission of God. Why would our conditional receipt of this Grace detract from the fact that it is Grace?

Along another line…Seeking, you yourself have even made Grace conditional. Following your own logic, it is no longer Grace if you have to respond with faith, which is a condition.

Help me understand that.

 

[SteveGC]

** I would say the unregenerate person has free will to sin; while the saved man, who has the mind of Christ, will chose to do the will of God.**

Interesting…does this then mean that you, yourself do not have the free will to sin? I suppose I know the answer ahead of time, so I will follow with this…how does your personal continuation of sinning fit into this picture you’ve painted for us?

 

[SteveGC]

Thanks again for responding to me, Seeking…

** I know many people who believe that salvation is Grace through faith in Christ. I would go as far as to say that of all the “Christian” religions; those that take that specific view are the elect. **

Then all devout Catholics are part of the elect, yet you treat us as if we’re not. Have you not learned by now that we believe this doctrine? Or is there more to the story? Do you still hold onto your “you think you earn it through works/sacraments” distortion? Or…wait…now I get it…I just saw the quotes around “Christian”…that just excluded us, right?..clever.

** I must correct here; the moment someone possesses; not necessarily profess.]**

yes, we understand each other. By me stating “professing in their heart”, I did indeed mean “possessing”.

** Water baptism is important because it is a command of the Lord. Confession and asking God to forgive is an essential part of prayer and we are commanded to do it, but the heart of God wants to. **

Ok, this all sounds nice…baptism is “important”…confession is an “essential part of prayer” and the “heart of God wants to”. I believe all that too. But, I’m guessing you would also say, none of it is necessary for salvation. You would just claim (speaking also for all those who are part of the Elect) that you all have the heart of God and want to do it, and so all the Elect actually DO IT. All the Elect, even those you don’t know, because they have the heart of God, get water baptism, and confess sins even after they possess the indwelling? And if they DON’T get baptized nor confess future sin, they then PROVE to the world and themselves, that they were never part of the Elect. Is this the claim?

** I cannot tell you why God would select me over anyone one else; there is nothing I did or could have done. It puts me in awe of God, my heart sings with thanksgiving to God. I pray that He will allow me to give my children, to whom He gave me, back to Him. I am so blessed, I have a spouse that is saved as well and neither of us were until 10 years after being married. To some it may seem like arrogance, but it is confidence in the God’s promises and the Hope, which is Jesus to come. **

And I commend you on your devotion, but would caution you, that although I am not in the business of calling Christians who claim to be the “ELECT” arrogant, I would claim that there is a dangerous over-confidence within them. You certainly give God all the credit (which is commendable), yet give yourself no credit (save for mere belief), and more precisely…no real responsibility over your own morals (which is not what God wanted you to do). Not that you think it’s OK to be (or even possible to now be) immoral, but you seem to think you will go about the rest of your life, as ELECT as you are, and everything you do will be in accord with God’s will - you HAVE to be sure of this, otherwise you cease to be the ELECT. If you sin, oh well, that was the will of God, because you don’t have any accountability - you’re the Elect, after all. The Elect can say “Whatever happens with my actions or inactions, that’s the way God is taking me”. Sure, you should and, as you claim, would confess, but if you forget about a few big sins here and there, no biggie. God’s got it all sorted out for me. I sound flippant…and I am truly sorry, I don’t know right now how to put that a diplomatic way, but this is where your theology leads.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

2Tim 3:15

no, Seeking, this passage does not claim that the Bible ‘teaches’. not only was there no nt at the time this was written, but the verse states that Scripture is ‘profitable’ in teaching. Teaching is an activity that requires a person, as does all those other activities;

2 Tim 3:15-4:1
16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

The equipping of the Saints is a job entrusted to the Church.

Eph 4:11-14
11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;

Teaching is a gift given to a person. So also is prophesy, evangelism, pastoring etc. it is people that are charged iwth equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. Scripture is profitable in this endeavor. Scripture is not to be separated from those persons to whom God has given authority to teach.

 

[guanophore]

** Unfortunately your teaching and upbringing has merged justification with sanctification. You are justified; no condemnation at the moment of salvation…period. Salvation by faith is the gospel; dangerous as it may be to you. Your works, which takes away the grace is a gospel I am unfamiliar with and want no part in. **

Actually, this is not ‘unfortunate’ at all. This is the teaching that we have received from the Apostles. justification is not separated from sanctification.

Bearing fruit that befits repentance is also part of the Gospel, as dangerous as that may be to you.

They are not our works, anymore, for we have died, and our lives are hidden with Christ in God. it is he that is at work within us to will and to do his good pleasure. it is no longer we that work, but he that works in us.

how you can think that this ‘takes away the grace’ boggles the mind.

**
It always help to put things in the proper context, yes Paul is speaking to believers; but He is demonstrating the power of faith in Christ; as verse 11 clearly indicates, but not to a “natural man”.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters**, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

James is a real stumbling block for the the works based religions.

i don’t have any experience with any ‘works based religion’ so i will have to take your word for it.

** I can’t wait to here your answer between being saved and entering heaven; should be very informative. Here is what you said for reference: “I realize that perhaps you do not recognize the difference between being “saved” and “inheriting the kingdom of God”. There is a difference between being saved and ultimately ending up in Heaven.”**

There are some aspects of salvation that are complete. others are not. it is possible to be cut off from grace, fail to finish the race, or be disqualified.

if we remain in grace, we can begin to inherit the kingdom now, and in eternity.

**
Grace of God covers past, present and future, that why it is Grace.**

no. the fact that grace exists outside the space time continuum is not what makes it ‘grace’ . many things do, including sins.

** It doesn’t eliminate works; it is the Engine that allows one to do the works God prepared before time.

**

it is very Catholic of you to say this!

** It does not infuse or impart additional Grace. Another way to look at it is works are the result of saving grace, not the means. **

Doing good works does impart additional grace. They are a result of grace, and a means of grace.

** I understand why the system works; always on the edge wondering if I’m saved or just giving up and plot around in life doing the rituals and doing nice things for people; in the end hoping the scales balance out in my favor; that the good outweighs the bad and hope for the best in the end. If I didn’t do good enough, which I can’t, then I’ll just hang around purgatory until God decides I’ve paid the price. Doesn’t sound to graceful to me; I wouldn’t treat my own child that way and I see it from a fallen way; whereas God’s grace is perfect. But you do what makes you feel best; we all make the choice one way or another and each his own account before God. **

no, it does not sound like grace to me either. is what you have described here a ‘works based salvation’?

this is not Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

** I know plenty of like-minded Christians because they adhere to the Word of God. **

yes. We know them too! They visit here often.

** The Bible does as it says, the “natural man” does not understand and the true believers have the “mind of Christ” and the Holy Spirit leads to all truth; all these things the Bibles says and all are true. **

The Bible does not ‘do’ anything. Doing requires a person. most people do it themselves, but believe it comes from the Scripture. Scripture, however, is not a person, and does not ‘do’.

i agree that the natural man does not understand spiritual things, however, individual believers are often lacking in the ‘mind of Christ’. They believe that the do, but in fact, do not.

The hs does lead to all truth, but this does not happen in opposition to the Truth that has already been revealed to the Church.

It is also true that we can know and do know that you have been called. As I have said before; it is not a mystery and there is no way someone can have the mind of Christ and the indwelling and not know it is there. The life is completely changed from the “old man” to the “new man”. The pattern and direction of one’s life is to sin less and less and when you do sin; it seems much bigger than it use to.

no doubt!
I actually know joy; something I use to chase after in the world and could find it on a temporary basis; not like this joy. It is not so much emotional as it is peaceful…if that makes sense.

As far as prayer life, this is another good example. I pray all the time, but it never seems to be enough because the more you have your spiritual goggles on the more you realize how much there is to pray for; there are a lot of suffering people out there.

Remind me sometime and I will start a thread titled “12 indicators/tests of Salvation”

 

[SteveGC]

Scripture is not to be separated from those persons to whom God has given authority to teach.

Hi gp.

Can’t believe I’m about to do this, but I’ll try to see if I can speak for Seeking on this…

I think he’d say that he agrees with you. That the book doesn’t teach. The author does. The HS does. I addressed this in another thread, I think. I agreed that an author can basically “teach” through a book. Debatable for sure…the book has to be pretty darn clear, which Scripture actually says of itself that it isn’t. And yet, Bible-only’s would claim that the power of the HS surpasses that limitation…I don’t know…round and round we go.

The bigger issue, as of course you know, is one of “private interpretation” outside of authority…and of course, “authority” is yet another issue…::sigh::

 

[Seeking12]

Sorry, jumping in here uninvited, but I wanted to ask…
If a father tells their child that they have permission to go to the movies, IF they clean up their room (which is perpetually filthy), does the fact that the child must clean up their room detract from, or somehow erase, the authority and power of permission the father possesses?
Grace is the authority and power of permission of God. Why would our conditional receipt of this Grace detract from the fact that it is Grace?

Along another line…Seeking, you yourself have even made Grace conditional. Following your own logic, it is no longer Grace if you have to respond with faith, which is a condition.

Help me understand that.

**
God doesn’t put the “if’s” in there, because it is solely His work. The New Covenant is like the Mosaic covenant, where in the latter God set conditions because; it was a 2 way street. The New Covenant is a one way street, which is solely the work of God in the heart of those whom He has chosen. Faith is a gift of God. Yes you must be repentant and obedient the result of receiving that gift, but you could never do this on your own; only the work God has done motivates and enables one to follow through, but again this is all the work of God not man least anyone should boast and we would.**

 

[JAGCath28]

I want to thank everyone for this thread. I have learned so much while reading this. It is very interesting to watch y’all so fervently defend our faith.

**If you attach conditions to grace, then it is no longer grace. If you claim God attaches conditions to His grace and that He can take it away or that He will let His own walk away, then you make God something that He is not.

I can’t even begin to touch anything you said above because I would have to put myself back into original context that you took out, then explain it over again. If you want to touch on a specific point one at a time, than I will be happy to address these. As it is now, we have two different gospels. " the such were of you"; Paul was making the point that the path you were on would have condemned you, but now you are saved and no longer on that path. This passage speaks to those who are in sin and those that have come out of it by Gods grace. **

I just wanted to point out something that occurred to me when reading this post. As someone mentioned before, grace is a gift. I’ve been taught this my whole life (even before I became Catholic). Grace is a gift that we don’t earn because it is freely given…meaning that we aren’t given this gift because of what we did prior to receiving it. We are given this gift because, " For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son so that whosever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."-John 3-16. Often times with gifts and rewards come responsibility. Here’s an analogy:

Without getting too personal into my life, my aunts (my dad’s sisters) are helping pay for three of my sisters’ college, room and board. They were not asked to do this. It was a gift that they give freely of themselves. It wasn’t because of any good deed that my sisters have done. Prior to this gift, two sisters failed out of the college that they got into when they graduated from high school and the other didn’t do very well in high school. Looking at this track record, you might think, “Why would they want to waste their money are these girls who haven’t taken their education seriously so far?” And yet…they are giving this gift anyway. When/if my sisters finish college, they are not being asked to repay my aunts for the gift. It is a gift freely given. However, because they have this gift, they are responsible for meeting certain requirements in order to continue to receive this gift. Those requirements are passing their classes which would mean studying and going to class. Making every effort to do well. To point out again, they did nothing to deserve this gift. It is a gift of love. They have the ability to keep this gift as long as they meet their responsibilities. No one is going to take this gift away except for themselves. My aunts aren’t expecting them to be perfect. They aren’t asking them to make straight A’s (although this would be in their best interest), and when they do fail a class it will be looked at on a case by case basis. They don’t lose the gift immediately. However, if they continually pattern their lives in a way that puts things in front of the priority of passing their classes, it is like spitting in my aunts’ faces.

Now I give this analogy because it is very similar to God’s gift of salvation. We don’t deserve it. We don’t have a good track record, even those with good hearts prior to knowing God doesn’t have anything to show of their lives that can impress God, but He still gives us this gift. He only asks in return that we take the responsibility of His gift by living our life in a way that is pleasing to Him. Showing Him that we are thankful by doing His will which is to love Him above all and to love one another. We show our love to one another by “doing” things for each other. God has given many examples as to what our responsibility is now that we have accepted his gift. Here are just a few:

Mark 12:28-31 -Greatest Commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor.
Matthew 6:14-16 Forgive and you will be forgiven
Hebrews 13 is a good chapter that lists many things that are pleasing to God.

Again, as many on here has tried to point out, it is not our good “works” that gives us this gift of salvation. Eternal life is a gift only from God by grace. We accept the gift when we have faith, but we also accept the responsibility of living our life with God in us. When we fail to meet our responsibility of living a spotless perfect life (which everyone would agree that this happens on a daily basis), we have to be forgiven for our transgressions. If we do not need forgiveness for these sins because the initial gift washed away past, present and future sins then why did Jesus teach us to recognize and to ask for forgiveness when he taught us the prayer:

Our Father, who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever and ever.

God Bless,

Jessica

 

[SteveGC]

**
God doesn’t put the “if’s” in there, because it is solely His work. The New Covenant is like the Mosaic covenant, where in the latter God set conditions because; it was a 2 way street. The New Covenant is a one way street, which is solely the work of God in the heart of those whom He has chosen. Faith is a gift of God. Yes you must be repentant and obedient the result of receiving that gift, but you could never do this on your own; only the work God has done motivates and enables one to follow through, but again this is all the work of God not man least anyone should boast and we would.**

If you only knew how Catholic you sound. Yes, you’re right though…me giving the analogy of the father/child with just an “IF” clause, is not as good an analogy as could be made. The better way would be to include that the child is fully aware that he could not even begin to clean the room the proper way without the wisdom and experience imparted to him from the father. I guess I made this assumption, but I see your point…it is definitely where we have a disconnect, so I should have included that key aspect of it. So again, the only way the child can do what the father asks, is because the father first loves the child, and then the child responds with love and obedience for his father, thereby availing himself and receiving the wisdom and experience the father possesses.

How’s that?

 

[JAGCath28]

**
God doesn’t put the “if’s” in there, because it is solely His work. The New Covenant is like the Mosaic covenant, where in the latter God set conditions because; it was a 2 way street. The New Covenant is a one way street, which is solely the work of God in the heart of those whom He has chosen. Faith is a gift of God. Yes you must be repentant and obedient the result of receiving that gift, but you could never do this on your own; only the work God has done motivates and enables one to follow through, but again this is all the work of God not man least anyone should boast and we would.**

If you agree that being repentant and obedient are results/responsibilities from receiving this gift, then why are we debating this? Many people on here have tried to convince you that what you perceive as “Catholic” beliefs and traditions regarding faith, grace, and “good works” is false. We agree with you that our good works do not save us. As posted above, it is through God and God only that we have this gift of eternal life. I don’t understand the argument. Not a single Catholic on this thread has denied that it is through the grace of God alone that we are saved. If you agree as it seems you do by your statement above, that we should be repentant and obedient then again what is the debate?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

If you only knew how Catholic you sound.

I came to this conclusion days ago. Seeking definitely has distinct Protestant beliefs, but when it comes to Sola Fide for him/her, it is not your typical *‘do the alter call followed by the sinners prayer and tah dah you are saved and nothing can change that’.
*
Unless I have completely missed what seeking is saying always possible.

God bless

 

[SteveGC]

I came to this conclusion days ago. Seeking definitely has distinct Protestant beliefs, but when it comes to Sola Fide for him/her, it is not your typical *‘do the alter call followed by the sinners prayer and tah dah you are saved and nothing can change that’.
*
Unless I have completely missed what seeking is saying always possible.

God bless

Yes. I think the faith/works thing is about to be resolved here. Once he realizes Catholics aren’t a works-based salvation, but rather a grace-enabling faith and works salvation, he’ll see that he can move on to other obstacles. Sadly, there are plenty more ahead of him…keys, authority, apostolic succession. I think that’s the next big hurdle for him. If he can get himself over those…who knows…maybe his local parish will be filling another RCIA seat this September

We can hope, and pray

God Bless

 

[Seeking12]

I want to thank everyone for this thread. I have learned so much while reading this. It is very interesting to watch y’all so fervently defend our faith.

I just wanted to point out something that occurred to me when reading this post. As someone mentioned before, grace is a gift. I’ve been taught this my whole life (even before I became Catholic). Grace is a gift that we don’t earn because it is freely given…meaning that we aren’t given this gift because of what we did prior to receiving it. We are given this gift because, " For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son so that whosever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."-John 3-16. Often times with gifts and rewards come responsibility. Here’s an analogy:

Now I give this analogy because it is very similar to God’s gift of salvation. We don’t deserve it. We don’t have a good track record, even those with good hearts prior to knowing God doesn’t have anything to show of their lives that can impress God, but He still gives us this gift. He only asks in return that we take the responsibility of His gift by living our life in a way that is pleasing to Him. Showing Him that we are thankful by doing His will which is to love Him above all and to love one another. We show our love to one another by “doing” things for each other. God has given many examples as to what our responsibility is now that we have accepted his gift. Here are just a few:

Mark 12:28-31 -Greatest Commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor.
Matthew 6:14-16 Forgive and you will be forgiven
Hebrews 13 is a good chapter that lists many things that are pleasing to God.

Again, as many on here has tried to point out, it is not our good “works” that gives us this gift of salvation. Eternal life is a gift only from God by grace. We accept the gift when we have faith, but we also accept the responsibility of living our life with God in us. When we fail to meet our responsibility of living a spotless perfect life (which everyone would agree that this happens on a daily basis), we have to be forgiven for our transgressions. If we do not need forgiveness for these sins because the initial gift washed away past, present and future sins then why did Jesus teach us to recognize and to ask for forgiveness when he taught us the prayer:

God Bless,

Jessica

**Hi Jessica,

I regards to your analogy; if you Aunt had the power and authority to make you cousins succeed in college; bring them to the end, so to speak, then this would be more analogous to God’s work. Just a thought.**

 

[Seeking12]

I came to this conclusion days ago. Seeking definitely has distinct Protestant beliefs, but when it comes to Sola Fide for him/her, it is not your typical *‘do the alter call followed by the sinners prayer and tah dah you are saved and nothing can change that’.
*
Unless I have completely missed what seeking is saying always possible.

God bless

**
I think you all have watched too much TV with this health and wealth gospel all over the place. There are plenty of people and churches out there that would tell someone that make a “profession”, then tell them that is it; go on with your life. It is quite sad because these people play with peoples very souls. The good news is always; God is ultimately in control. I did not mean that TV statement as offensive to anyone, but it is all over the tube.**

 

[JAGCath28]

**Hi Jessica,

I regards to your analogy; if you Aunt (s)** had the power and authority to make you cousins (sisters)succeed in college; bring them to the end, so to speak, then this would be more analogous to God’s work. Just a thought.

Seeking, why are you wanting to argue over whether or not the example could be analagous to God’s work instead of looking at what I was trying to say with it? I’m just trying to show you an example, similar to how Jesus taught us basic principles when he taught in parables.

I think you missed the whole point of my post. I’m sorry that I didn’t present it in a way that made sense. Do you believe in free will?

 

[Seeking12]

Seeking, why are you wanting to argue over whether or not the example could be analagous to God’s work instead of looking at what I was trying to say with it? I’m just trying to show you an example, similar to how Jesus taught us basic principles when he taught in parables.

I think you missed the whole point of my post. I’m sorry that I didn’t present it in a way that made sense. Do you believe in free will?

**Just added a little to the analogy; sorry I offended you. I did not miss the point; rather added to the point; at least that is what I thought I did.

Free will does exist, but God’s will always trumps man’s in regards to salvation.**

 

[guanophore]

What is like-minded? We all think Scripture is supreme in its authority and agree on major doctines, such as salvation.

Scripture is not able to wield “authority”. This is an activity that can only be done by humans. So, basically what you are saying is that y’all have embraced a theological error, and have followed one another into more error based upon a faulty premise.

The truth is that there is quite a bit of disagreement about salvation.

I know of few people that believe that water Baptism saves or removes sin.

Gracious! Do you fraternize with people who have accepted the Apostolic teaching, even though it differs from how you read the scripture?

Interpretation of the Bible is a more a science, than a mystery.

Really? Where does it say THAT in the bible?

That should not be a surprise because the Spirit is the one leading the way to that truth.

I would have thought divine revelation was above science as a source of knowledge…

As far as outside sources, then one will always gravitate to those who have a like mind in your thinking.

This is basically what you have done, when you said above that “most” believe as you do. You have clearly gravitated to those who understand and interpret scripture just like you do.

This is where we differ. The Church traditions are not defined by Scripture, but rather they define what Scripture means.

It works both ways. Tradition supplements scripture, and scripture tradition. They inform and define one another. That is because they both come from the same Source.

This is the history of religious error in interpretation in my opinion.

Why should you opinion carry more weight than what the Apostles Taught?

Everything should be tested against what God chose to reveal to us. This does not eliminate traditions, but rather confirms them.

I agree, however, you seem to reject that some of what God revealed is found in the Church.

applications to that doctrine. Matthew 16:18-19 is a good example as to where we differ. If you used the interpretation as I understand, then you would have to abandon your faith; that would be an act of God in my opinion.

No. God is not the one acting when people abandon the faith that was delivered to the Church by the Apostles.

I see a lot of confusion, guilt and misunderstanding; again that is my observation. Start a thread titled; What salvation means to me" and see the answers you will get. or How the Holy Spirit indwells me and works through me"- that would be interesting.

It does sound interesting! It is a fact that we often see what lives in ourselves in others, and sometimes mistake the qualities we “see” in them as not belonging to us, which is where they originate. Freud called this “projection”.

** If you attach conditions to grace, then it is no longer grace. **

This is a very common falsehood. God can attach conditions to whatever He wants! If He determines you will be saved IFyou believe with your heart, and confess with your mouth, then how do these conditions make what saves us any less grace? do you believe it is your work that saves you? It is a ridiculous assertion.

** If you claim God attaches conditions to His grace and that He can take it away or that He will let His own walk away, then you make God something that He is not. **

No. But I can understand how it seems that way to you.

God can employ any conditions He likes. He does not withdraw HIs grace, but we can fall from it. Scripture is clear that we can spurn the Son of God afresh by refusing HIs sacrifice. God has permitted this. It does not mean He isn’t sovereign. He created the angels, and permitted them to rebel, and leave heaven. IT does not make Him “something He is not”. Maybe it ruins your inaccruate perception of HIm?

** As it is now, we have two different gospels. **

Clearly.

 

[JAGCath28]

**Just added a little to the analogy; sorry I offended you. I did not miss the point; rather added to the point; at least that is what I thought I did.

Free will does exist, but God’s will always trumps man’s in regards to salvation.**

Ok. No worries. I see your point regarding my Aunts making my sisters do what they need to in order to pass their classes (the end goal) vs. God making us obedient and repentant to prepare us for Heaven (the end goal). But, I believe, and maybe this is the disconnect, that it all boils down to free will. God gave us a gift which we “have” to accept. He doesn’t force us to. If He did then we would all be “saved”. And even when we do accept the gift of eternal life, we have the free will to choose to be obedient and repentant or to not be. The free will isn’t gone. My Aunts could go with my sisters everyday and make sure that they go to class. They could sit there and watch them do their homework and study at night. They could “force” them to do what they have to do to pass, but they don’t because my sisters have the free will to choose to meet their responsibilities. (Aside from the fact that it would be impossible for them to do go with them to class…but go with the logic) Going one step further, one of my sisters failed out last semester and the school would not let her take classes during this semester. Although she has to reap the “rewards” of not being in school (i.e. pay for her room and board) during the semester off, as soon as she is enrolled again, the gift is back. It is the same in our life. When we aren’t obedient to God, putting Him and His will first, we have “just rewards” that follow from those choices. But He is there waiting for us to call on Him. The difference between before and after salvation is that now we have the Holy Spirit to help us through our trials and temptations instead of doing it on our own. We have the promise that God will never leave us nor forsake us, but that doesn’t mean that through our own choices on this earth that we can’t turn astray. We have to choose to allow the Holy Spirit to work in us.

(I just want to point out that I am in no way trying to say that my Aunts are like God incarnate. 3 strikes, and free tuition is gone. God’s love and mercy is eternal. But I hope you draw the parallels that I’m trying to make here.)

You said this earlier:

I could never buy into a salvation where God would allow you to be saved, then unsaved, then saved, then unsaved; it is unbiblical and distorts the nature of saving grace and God’s character.

It isn’t that God gave you salvation, then took it away, then gave it back, then took it away, etc. God’s gift will never leave us once we accept it, but as we live our lives here on earth after we’ve been “transformed” by His grace we have the responsibility (should be desire and yearning) to be obedient. When we aren’t obedient, when we aren’t grateful for this gift, we are throwing it back in His face saying we don’t want it. It isn’t God leaving us, but us leaving Him. He will be there waiting for us for come back. It is His desire that we are one with Him, but it has to be our desire as well. Free will.