Sola Fide Contradiction

[Philthy]

**If you attach conditions to grace, then it is no longer grace. **

**
This is another one of your unsubstantiated premises which you build your theology around. It is patently obvious that God does attach conditions to grace. Faith would - at the very least - be one of them. If there were no conditions, then everyone would be saved. The fact that God establishes conditions upon the dispensation of Grace is, in itself, grace since apart from him establishing conditions which He has bound Himself to honoring we would be completely hopeless with respect to salvation.

**

I can’t even begin to touch anything you said above because I would have to put myself back into original context that you took out, then explain it over again.

I agree that you cant touch anything I said, but I find your reason for avoiding it unsatisfactory. You wouldn’t have to do anymore work than I did in refuting your posts. But if it is too much work, that is entirely your prerogative.

**If you want to touch on a specific point one at a time, than I will be happy to address these. **

Fair enough. Lets begin with your claim that if God establishes conditions for his grace then it is no longer grace. I maintain that God does put conditions upon his Grace - repentance, forgiveness of others, and faith are three immediate conditions that come to mind. So lets have you address this issue: Is faith a condition that God has placed upon the dispensation of his grace? Please begin with yes or no.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

**
I think you all have watched too much TV with this health and wealth gospel all over the place. There are plenty of people and churches out there that would tell someone that make a “profession”, then tell them that is it; go on with your life. It is quite sad because these people play with peoples very souls. The good news is always; God is ultimately in control. I did not mean that TV statement as offensive to anyone, but it is all over the tube.**

No it hasn’t been that. I think I have just listened to too many non-catholics try to explain to me what they believe faith-alone is. Now perhaps a case could be made that they are watching too much of the health and wealth gospel, but I certainly am not

God bless

 

[Philthy]

**
Free will does exist, but God’s will always trumps man’s in regards to salvation.**

Are you saying God forces some people - against their will - to be saved???

 

[Philthy]

**If you attach conditions to grace, then it is no longer grace. **

Here’s some more food for though regarding conditional grace. It’s from another thread you might enjoy - there were some heavy hitters from both sides of the grace debate. Heres the link: http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=265388&page=9

Grace is grace regardless of the conditions unilaterally placed upon it’s dispensation by God. In fact, establishing any conditions at all which provide access to His grace is, in itself, a grace that we don’t deserve. The term “merits grace” simply refers to someone who has met those conditions.
For example:
Salvation is by grace through faith. The fact that faith is a condition of salvation does not obviate that it remains grace, does it? Having faith does not obligate the dispensation of grace in an absolute sense - Gods justice does since he has( by an act of grace) sovereignly declared that salvation is by grace through faith. Again, the rub is that the fact that He established any condition at all by which we have access to His grace (of which we are totally undeserving) - is gracious!

 

[Seeking12]

**
This is another one of your unsubstantiated premises which you build your theology around. It is patently obvious that God does attach conditions to grace. Faith would - at the very least - be one of them. If there were no conditions, then everyone would be saved. The fact that God establishes conditions upon the dispensation of Grace is, in itself, grace since apart from him establishing conditions which He has bound Himself to honoring we would be completely hopeless with respect to salvation.
**I would agree with you except faith is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; Ephesians 3:7 according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. ****
I agree that you cant touch anything I said, but I find your reason for avoiding it unsatisfactory. You wouldn’t have to do anymore work than I did in refuting your posts. But if it is too much work, that is entirely your prerogative. Too much at one time.

Fair enough. Lets begin with your claim that if God establishes conditions for his grace then it is no longer grace. I maintain that God does put conditions upon his Grace - repentance, forgiveness of others, and faith are three immediate conditions that come to mind. So lets have you address this issue: Is faith a condition that God has placed upon the dispensation of his grace? Please begin with yes or no.

You do have to come into repentance; but again no one would do that if not for the work of God in the heart. Bottom line is that it is all of God and if you believe there is something you do to contribute/add to what God has already done, then you have something to boast about.

 

[Seeking12]

Here’s some more food for though regarding conditional grace. It’s from another thread you might enjoy - there were some heavy hitters from both sides of the grace debate. Heres the link: http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=265388&page=9

Didn’t take long for that thread to go down and out…LOL

 

[SteveGC]

You do have to come into repentance; but again no one would do that if not for the work of God in the heart. Bottom line is that it is all of God and if you believe there is something you do to contribute/add to what God has already done, then you have something to boast about.

Hi again, Seeking. Are you inferring here that once we receive grace, God takes over all our faculties? our thoughts, our impulses, even instincts, and body movements? It’s almost as if you really think that, as if you become not only a “new creation”, but somewhat of a puppet, or robot, with God on the strings - or with a remote control. Silly analogy, I know, but I mean, where do YOU come in? Do you have ANYTHING left at all that co-exists with grace? personality…will power…prerogative…? I mean, we also believe we are infused with grace, but we are also still very human…and yes, we DO believe that faith and works are gifts, part of that grace we receive. But these supplementary gifts of faith and good works don’t just happen automatically. Our human nature still has to cooperate. You would claim that it just happens…your old self dies so much that you no longer have any inclination to deny the grace within you. I don’t see anything correct in that thinking, nor biblical. But at least, finally perhaps, you can see that you agree with Catholics on the fact that Grace, our Faith, and even our ability to do good works are ALL unmerited gifts of God. The source of all of them is God. We just have to figure out why we disagree on how we respond to the faith and works.

Make sense?

God Bless

 

[Seeking12]

Are you saying God forces some people - against their will - to be saved???

Is God the Creator and Sustainer of all things? Is God sovereign? Did God presdestinate?
God did not force someone against their will; He changed their will and desires toward Him. If this was not the case, then on one would come to God according to the Bible.

 

[Seeking12]

Hi again, Seeking. Are you inferring here that once we receive grace, God takes over all our faculties? our thoughts, our impulses, even instincts, and body movements? It’s almost as if you really think that, as if you become not only a “new creation”, but somewhat of a puppet, or robot, with God on the strings - or with a remote control. Silly analogy, I know, but I mean, where do YOU come in? Do you have ANYTHING left at all that co-exists with grace? personality…will power…prerogative…? I mean, we also believe we are infused with grace, but we are also still very human…and yes, we DO believe that faith and works are gifts, part of that grace we receive. But these supplementary gifts of faith and good works don’t just happen automatically. Our human nature still has to cooperate. You would claim that it just happens…your old self dies so much that you no longer have any inclination to deny the grace within you. I don’t see anything correct in that thinking, nor biblical. But at least, finally perhaps, you can see that you agree with Catholics on the fact that Grace, our Faith, and even our ability to do good works are ALL unmerited gifts of God. The source of all of them is God. We just have to figure out why we disagree on how we respond to the faith and works.

Make sense?

God Bless

You are still a person with thoughts, actions and emotions, but those thought actions and emotions are wired to the love of God; therefore you desire to do what pleases Him; you would never have that desire if you were the “old man”. In my opinion there are two types of Christian types; those that serve from the heart and cannot help themselves because it is become their nature; then those that are trying to please God with good intentions; that at the surface appear holy, but the reality is when they do a good deed of thought in the name of God, they are doing it for self gratification…makes them feel good about themselves and in front of others.

 

[Philthy]

You do have to come into repentance;

Yes I know - I was the one who pointed that out to you. :yup:
You were the one who was claiming that grace is not grace if it has conditions attached to it! It is important to choose one’s words wisely.

but again no one would do that if not for the work of God in the heart. Bottom line is that it is all of God and if you believe there is something you do to contribute/add to what God has already done, then you have something to boast about**.**

While I am tempted to simply agree here, there are a few details that need to be worked out. All acts of faith and love (repentance included) are impossible without God’s grace and in that sense it is all CONTIGENT upon God. That is orthodox Catholic theology.
There is a difference, however, between acknowledging that we are hopeless without God and claiming that it is “all God”. If it were all God in the absolute sense, there would be no need for the conversation we are having - God would do it all. There would be no need for baptism, faith, repentance, forgiveness, perseverance, etc. There would be no need for a bible or a Church - God would just do it all. That is not how God has chosen to accomplish salvation - He does not “force” himself upon us. Like every true love relationship, both parties are willing participants…or not. God will always be faithful, but we are still free to reject all that God offers us by way of grace. Simply look at how some of the Pharisees reacted to Christ. Think about it: we must cooperate with Gods grace in order for it to have its desired effect. We cant remain attached to other gods (money, power, ego, etc) and simultaneously derive the benefit of grace which has as its end remaking us -body and soul - into the image of Christ. So while we are completely dependent upon God to become more Christ-like, we simultaneously have the ability to reject that offer. Because of this reality, we must wake up and realize that we have a part to play in this as well. Our part is small, but we must make the small act of unwrapping the present that God has given us. If we allow ourselves to be overtaken by the lures of the world we run the risk of falling away from intimacy with God and failing to persevere to the end.

Here’s an analogy on grace and our need to cooperate with it for your consideration:

You have a pot, a watering can, a water supply and some dirt and you want to grow a flower.

You are hopeless without a seed. Nothing you do works. Your works do nothing!

God comes along and freely gives us a seed which begins to grow.Thank you God!

He also tells us - I’ll provide the Son, but you need to water the plant or it will die!
You don’t water the plant and it dies after a while.

Explanation:
The pot, can, water and dirt - everything we are - is us in our sinful state.
The flower is a living relationship with God:eternal life
The desire for a flower is the desire for eternal life
The attempt to grow the flower without a seed is works without faith
The seed is God’s gift of Grace and without it there will be no “flower”
Jesus is the Sun - the metaphor was to good to pass up - also necessary
The statement by God is His Word - it tells us what we need to do.
Failing to water the plant is “faith without works”
Watering the plant is the “works”(faith, repentace, forgiving others) part of eternal life - ignore them, and the plant dies. It may grow for a while, but if you ignore them it will die.

 

[SteveGC]

Here’s an analogy on grace and our need to cooperate with it for your consideration:

Awesome analogy, Phil. You came up with that?

You are still a person with thoughts, actions and emotions, but those thought actions and emotions are wired to the love of God; therefore you desire to do what pleases Him; you would never have that desire if you were the “old man”. In my opinion there are two types of Christian types; those that serve from the heart and cannot help themselves because it is become their nature; then those that are trying to please God with good intentions; that at the surface appear holy, but the reality is when they do a good deed of thought in the name of God, they are doing it for self gratification…makes them feel good about themselves and in front of others.

Ok*…“still a person…but ‘wired’ to the love of God” *sounds an awful lot like my analogy of the robot earlier.

And I would agree with you on the 2 types of Christians, one that serves with grace, the other that attempts to serve without - the former being the salvific one. The only problem is that the former you describe *“cannot help themselves”. *In another post, you said this similar thing… *“God did not force someone against their will; He changed their will and desires toward Him…” *This seems like a glaring contradiction. If I *“change your will and desire”, *I am acting on your will without your consent. We would say that God receives our consent (or ascent of our will), and He then uses grace to allow us to see the good work we then willingly cooperate with. Something like that. As I’m writing this, I can already sense you disagree. Perhaps Philthy can word this better than I. But, nevertheless, do you not see the paradox in your above statement about forcing the will?

God Bless

 

[LutheranDK]

Recently, I have been discussing doctrine with a friend. In trying to explain his belief of sola fide, he summed it up like this:

“We are justified by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.”

I have heard this a few times and always though it a very curious idea. The sentence seems flatly contradictory if the two instances of the word faith mean the same thing. “Faith that is alone” is tantamount to “faith by itself”, which is tantamount to “faith alone”. So, the sentence is essentially saying, “We are justified by faith by itself, but not by faith by itself.” The sentence may only escape contradiction if faith means two different things in the two different instances. In other words, faith in the first sense has what faith in the second sense lacks. We must assume the presence of a quality or component in the first instance that isn’t included in the “alone-ness” of the second sense. We should then have to qualify that faith in the first sense includes the quality or component of charity. The doctrine should be justifying faith alone, instead of merely faith alone. Finally, we can see then that faith and works is just another (and easier to understand) way of saying justifying faith.
My friend tried explaining that is wasn’t the word faith which changes meaning, but the word alone. However, with a bit of thought, you see that the same contradiction applies. This seems like a classic case of equivocation.

I have seen this statement a few times on the forums, but I haven’t noticed anyone label it contradictory or even equivocation. It is this because everyone sees something I don’t? It seems like a cheap attempt to hold on to a doctrine that you don’t really buy. So, again, please tell me if I am missing something.

The meaning of the phrase “We are justified by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.” is that it is TRUE faith that saves us, and true faith results in works.
So if someone says: “I’m saved, so I don’t have to do anything. I can just sit on my behind and be indifferent towards the world, and the people I could help, and I don’t care about growing in sanctification either, because Christ did it all”, he/she has just demonstrated by their words that their “faith” is not true faith, but rather libertarianism.
It is THIS context into which James’ words are spoken.

 

[SteveGC]

The meaning of the phrase “We are justified by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.” is that it is TRUE faith that saves us, and true faith results in works.
So if someone says: “I’m saved, so I don’t have to do anything. I can just sit on my behind and be indifferent towards the world, and the people I could help, and I don’t care about growing in sanctification either, because Christ did it all”, he/she has just demonstrated by their words that their “faith” is not true faith, but rather libertarianism.
It is THIS context into which James’ words are spoken.

And this is also Catholic teaching on faith and works. Our good works are not possible without true faith, and neither (faith nor works) are possible without God’s Grace. The gift of faith involves both grace (the source of it) and the ascent of our will to cooperate with that free unmerited grace. Our ascent allows us then to see the good works God has prepared for us, to which we again cooperate with. This is far from a “works-based salvation” or “earn your way into heaven” theology that non-Catholics accuse The Church of teaching. The bottom line is that Catholic and Protestant (or non-Catholic if you prefer) theologies regarding this doctrine are so incredibly similar, it’s a wonder we debate it still…we do because of anti-Catholic rhetoric which still plagues many sectors of non-Catholic circles. The only problem with most, not all, non-Catholic teaching on this doctrine, is that they DON’T teach this to their faithful. If you ask some of them personally about it, you get the proper theology…but in their church, many pastors limit the theology (atleast in words) to a “just believe” requirement. They don’t expand upon what (true) faith actually is, how we are to cooperate, etc. Consequently, you get many non-Catholics spreading around the “Faith Alone” battle-cry, without knowing that there’s more to it (like obedience).

God Bless

 

[Seeking12]

Yes I know - I was the one who pointed that out to you. :yup:
You were the one who was claiming that grace is not grace if it has conditions attached to it! It is important to choose one’s words wisely.
While I am tempted to simply agree here, there are a few details that need to be worked out. All acts of faith and love (repentance included) are impossible without God’s grace and in that sense it is all CONTIGENT upon God. That is orthodox Catholic theology.
There is a difference, however, between acknowledging that we are hopeless without God and claiming that it is “all God”. If it were all God in the absolute sense, there would be no need for the conversation we are having - God would do it all. There would be no need for baptism, faith, repentance, forgiveness, perseverance, etc. There would be no need for a bible or a Church - God would just do it all. That is not how God has chosen to accomplish salvation - He does not “force” himself upon us. Like every true love relationship, both parties are willing participants…or not. God will always be faithful, but we are still free to reject all that God offers us by way of grace. Simply look at how some of the Pharisees reacted to Christ. Think about it: we must cooperate with Gods grace in order for it to have its desired effect. We cant remain attached to other gods (money, power, ego, etc) and simultaneously derive the benefit of grace which has as its end remaking us -body and soul - into the image of Christ. So while we are completely dependent upon God to become more Christ-like, we simultaneously have the ability to reject that offer. Because of this reality, we must wake up and realize that we have a part to play in this as well. Our part is small, but we must make the small act of unwrapping the present that God has given us. If we allow ourselves to be overtaken by the lures of the world we run the risk of falling away from intimacy with God and failing to persevere to the end.

Here’s an analogy on grace and our need to cooperate with it for your consideration:

You have a pot, a watering can, a water supply and some dirt and you want to grow a flower.

You are hopeless without a seed. Nothing you do works. Your works do nothing!

God comes along and freely gives us a seed which begins to grow.Thank you God!

He also tells us - I’ll provide the Son, but you need to water the plant or it will die!
You don’t water the plant and it dies after a while.

Explanation:
The pot, can, water and dirt - everything we are - is us in our sinful state.
The flower is a living relationship with God:eternal life
The desire for a flower is the desire for eternal life
The attempt to grow the flower without a seed is works without faith
The seed is God’s gift of Grace and without it there will be no “flower”
Jesus is the Sun - the metaphor was to good to pass up - also necessary
The statement by God is His Word - it tells us what we need to do.
Failing to water the plant is “faith without works”
Watering the plant is the “works”(faith, repentace, forgiving others) part of eternal life - ignore them, and the plant dies. It may grow for a while, but if you ignore them it will die.

**I think you may be looking at God from a fallen perspective; we all do. It is all of God; He predestined before time who would be saved; therefore it is His plan 100%. Believers are the object of that predestination; the Bible asks the question: “who can resist His will”? Answer, no one. He changes our will; if you ask me the only real free will we have is humans is to chose which sin we will do; because it is our nature.

All the things you sated that there would be no need for, baptism, faith, forgiveness etc are the paths God has chosen for His redeemed to take. Although we have a new life in Jesus, we still chose to sin like the “old man”; that is why when it comes to free will; I believe are actual free will is tied to our nature, which is sinful.

Philippians 1:6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
**

 

[Seeking12]

Awesome analogy, Phil. You came up with that?

Ok*…“still a person…but ‘wired’ to the love of God” *sounds an awful lot like my analogy of the robot earlier.

And I would agree with you on the 2 types of Christians, one that serves with grace, the other that attempts to serve without - the former being the salvific one. The only problem is that the former you describe *“cannot help themselves”. *In another post, you said this similar thing… *“God did not force someone against their will; He changed their will and desires toward Him…” *This seems like a glaring contradiction. If I *“change your will and desire”, *I am acting on your will without your consent. We would say that God receives our consent (or ascent of our will), and He then uses grace to allow us to see the good work we then willingly cooperate with. Something like that. As I’m writing this, I can already sense you disagree. Perhaps Philthy can word this better than I. But, nevertheless, do you not see the paradox in your above statement about forcing the will?

God Bless

**
If God changed your will and the way you perceive God, then one cannot help but do the will of God; after all a true believer has the mind of Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit…right? We do cooperate, but we wouldn’t if left to ourselves and still don’t at times and we fall away from His blessings; then our conscience convicts us or He chastens us.**

 

[Seeking12]

And this is also Catholic teaching on faith and works. Our good works are not possible without true faith, and neither (faith nor works) are possible without God’s Grace. The gift of faith involves both grace (the source of it) and the ascent of our will to cooperate with that free unmerited grace. Our ascent allows us then to see the good works God has prepared for us, to which we again cooperate with. This is far from a “works-based salvation” or “earn your way into heaven” theology that non-Catholics accuse The Church of teaching. The bottom line is that Catholic and Protestant (or non-Catholic if you prefer) theologies regarding this doctrine are so incredibly similar, it’s a wonder we debate it still…we do because of anti-Catholic rhetoric which still plagues many sectors of non-Catholic circles. The only problem with most, not all, non-Catholic teaching on this doctrine, is that they DON’T teach this to their faithful. If you ask some of them personally about it, you get the proper theology…but in their church, many pastors limit the theology (atleast in words) to a “just believe” requirement. They don’t expand upon what (true) faith actually is, how we are to cooperate, etc. Consequently, you get many non-Catholics spreading around the “Faith Alone” battle-cry, without knowing that there’s more to it (like obedience).

God Bless

**
I think the Catholic teaching is that you can fall from the love of God and lose your salvation; that is not the same thing as described by LuthernDK.**

 

[Philthy]

Is God the Creator and Sustainer of all things?
Of course, including free will.

Is God sovereign?

 

[Philthy]

LutheranDK:

The meaning of the phrase “We are justified by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone.” is that it is TRUE faith that saves us, and true faith results in works.

But if the only way that true faith can be known is through the works it produces, what’s the point in claiming salvation by faith alone??? There is no such thing as an alone faith…its always accompanied by good works. Now perhaps GOD can see our faith apart from our works, but WE certainly cant. So whats the point of speaking of “faith aIone”? mean, if you were preaching to a Jew then I can understand the point somewhat. But in the context of inter-Christian dialogue it seems like a useless point to make. We are saved by “faith working through love” seems to be just fine.

So if someone says: “I’m saved, so I don’t have to do anything. I can just sit on my behind and be indifferent towards the world, and the people I could help, and I don’t care about growing in sanctification either, because Christ did it all”, he/she has just demonstrated by their words that their “faith” is not true faith, but rather libertarianism. It is THIS context into which James’ words are spoken.

So to sum it up, the only way one can know that they have true faith is to complete a life of fruitful love and labor?

 

[Seeking12]

Seeking12;4903232:

Is God the Creator and Sustainer of all things?
Of course, including free will

.
Yes and He soveignly declared our choices as…ours…and as having real effect, both in time and eternity.

He did, but I dont know what you mean by the statement and how it is relevant to the topic.

Agreed…lets see how you spin this…
Uhh huhh. If He does not “force” our wills and desires, then how do they change?
The answer is simple: he provides grace to transform us and we are free to accept or reject the offer. Our response matters, and our response has eternal consequences. God desires “all men be saved” 1Tim 2:14 yet not all men become saved. The reason is simple: some choose not to accept the gift. If we were to accept your version of events, God would simultaneously “desire” that all men be saved yet “will” that only some of them actually be saved. That doesnt make much sense on a number of levels.

I agree, but this is not relevant. The question is not, “Would anyone come to God apart from Grace?” we all agree that they would not. The question is, “Does Grace force everyone to come to God or merely allow the opportunity to come to God if they accept it?”
If you adhere to the former, you make God out to be a partial judge - creating some souls for eternity in Hell…

Did God create vessels for honor and others for wrath? Why? Is God glorified in showing His mercy? What about His wrath?

Our response to the gospel does matter, but no one would respond toward the gospel if God did not first do the work on the heart of that person. That is why I say we have free will, but God’s will will always trump man’s will. This is a difficult thing for the human fallen mind to understand; maybe impossible in all of its implications, but God has figured it out so we walk by faith and not by sight.

 

[Philthy]

Philthy;4906407:

Did God create vessels for honor and others for wrath? Why? Is God glorified in showing His mercy? What about His wrath?

Our response to the gospel does matter

Then it is best not to describe it as “all God”, no? If it were “all God” our response would be irrelevant.

but no one would respond toward the gospel if God did not first do the work on the heart of that person. That is why I say we have free will, but God’s will will always trump man’s will.

Saying that God’s will “trumps” man’s will is ambiguous. If God chose to “trump” our wills then things would be quite different. God does not choose to “trump” our will. He nudges us and empowers us with His grace, but he does not “overpower” us. If he did, you wouldnt feel the need to be having this conversation **
**

This is a difficult thing for the human fallen mind to understand; maybe impossible in all of its implications, but God has figured it out so we walk by faith and not by sight.

Of course. God did not leave us to “figure out” too much, really. I believe he established a living teaching authority to guide the faithful. It began with the Apostles and it continues with their successors…slightly off topic