Sola Fide. Help!

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It is the usual faith versus faith and good works, grace and justification question then?

From Scripture supporting that good works as well as faith is required for our entry into heaven is the following. St James writes:

"Take the case, my brothers of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty’, without giving them these bare necessities of llife, then what good is that?: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.
This is the way to talk to people of that kind:'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds–now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.

You believe in one God–that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Do realise, you senseless man, that faith without works is useless. You surely know that Abraham our Father was justified by his deed, because he offered Isaac on the altar? There you see it; faith and good deeds were working together; his faith became perfect by what he did. This is what scripture really means when it says: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was counted as making him justified; and that is why he was called the friend of God. You see now that it is by doing something good, and not only by believing, that a man is justified." [James 2: 14-24]

“It is not those who call me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my father in heaven.” [Matthew 7:21]
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.
That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.” [Luke 6:45-49]
“Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.” [Galations 6:7-9]
 
theblindlead said:
how would i respond to a person who sent me this
carm.org/ccc-2010-2027-2068

Do all those passages in Hebrews contradict the catholic church?
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Their interpretation is the one that is contradictory.

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/infused-righteousness-versus-imputed-righteousness-which-one-entitles-us-to-enter-heaven/

The reason why Protestants are against infused righteousness is they view it as work-based justification, in contradiction to their concept of faith alone justification. Catholics do not believe in working on or earning our justification either. God’s Grace always first moves us to do righteous acts, be they believe in Christ, love one another, repenting etc. This means without His Grace we can neither do them nor even have the initiative to do them. Protestants, while insist on justification by faith alone, at the end of the day have to admit that faith that justifies is not alone as what Rev. Sears, quoting from Calvin, wrote below (emphasis added):

Calvin said, “When we say a man is justified by faith alone, we do not fancy a faith devoid of charity, but we mean that faith alone is the cause of justification.” Again Calvin makes this remarkable statement “I wish the reader to understand that as often as we mention Faith alone in this question, we are not thinking of a dead faith, which worketh not by love, but holding faith to be the only cause of justification. It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone.”

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/223-2/

Justification – contrasting Catholic and Protestant’s position

How does God justify us to enter heaven? On this issue of Justification, 16-th century Reformers broke away from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church declares that Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit [1]. Citing Augustine’s statement, the Catechism of the Catholic Church further says that Justification is even greater than the creation of the world. Luther wrote that justification is chief doctrine [2] and whoever falls from the doctrine of justification is ignorant of God and is an idolater[3]. To Calvin Justification is the principal ground on which religion must be supported [4]
 
CARM, for which they will ultimately answer, flatly states, contrary to the very words of our Savior, that baptism is no longer needed. How much further off the track can they get? Under normal circumstances, if one is not baptized, one is not Christian.
 
Those are the standard Protestant readings. I will start by showing you why they are out of context, then show you a reading that says otherwise.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 3:28-30
[/BIBLEDRB]

In the early church, there was a group called the Judaizers that were teaching that before you could be Christian, you had to become a Jew. St. Paul was one of the biggest preachers in the Bible against this theology, ending with Acts chap. 15 where the Council of Jeruslahem ruled against that idea. St. Paul does a great deal of writing against that idea, and that is what he was teaching against in that Romans reading, and a few more used on that site.

Here is some Biblical evidence that the Romans reading was for the Judaizers. In chapter 1 and 2, St. Paul says that he will adress the Jews, then the Gentiles. Then there is

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:17[/BIBLEDRB]

In that reading, St. Paul begins talking to the Judaizers. You can see this theme constantly until Chap. 11:13

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 11:13[/BIBLEDRB]

In context, all of those Romans readings were meant to be interpreted in the context of Jewish law. As you can see not long before the first quote from Romans, St. Paul is adressing Jewish law.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:29[/BIBLEDRB]

In that reading, he is critical of empty circumcision. In the next reading the Protestant website sites, it deals with Abraham’s Justification.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 4:3[/BIBLEDRB]

St. Paul clearly is making a reference to Genesis 15:6

[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 15:6[/BIBLEDRB]

But two chapters later God then makes a covenant with Abraham instructing Jews to be circumsized, starting with Abraham. There are even more covenants eventually made with the Jews, many with Moses. This fact did not escape St. Paul as he points out later in the website’s reading siting Abraham. Continue on a paragraph farther. I will also touch on this point in my second post where I cite James. This Genesis point is very important in proving that it is not faith alone.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 4:9-12[/BIBLEDRB]

As I am sure you can see, St. Paul was talking about circumcision when he wrote that reading. That also ties into what the website uses next two verses later.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 4:5[/BIBLEDRB]

Again work=Jewish law (in this case, circumsision) Now, get into the Romans 5:1 again referencing the Abraham story.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 5:1[/BIBLEDRB]

The whole speech before it was on Abraham’s faith. A few verses before, St. Paul says…

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 4:19-22[/BIBLEDRB]

Yes, it was Abraham’s faith at play, but Abraham was credited to rightiousness through enduring. Now we get to

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 11:6[/BIBLEDRB]

Funny, it is moments before St. Paul moves to the Gentiles on verse 13. Esentially, he was summing up why the Judiazers had it wrong.

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 2:16 [/BIBLEDRB]

St. Paul was also dealing with the Judiazers in this reading. At the begining of the chapter from 1-10, he was summing up the Council of Jeruslaem’s decision on circumcision. So then a few lines later (and this is funny because it is the very line before the citation)

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 2:15[/BIBLEDRB]

Notice the context! That original Galatians reading is half a point! He was talking to the Galatians about how the Judaizers were wrong.

My next post will be a Biblical reading showing why the Catholic position is right, and not disproving the Sola Fide readings.
 
Now this post will be shorter. Anyone who says that faith alone saves is ignoring this reading.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-26[/BIBLEDRB]

Note, “So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.”

Not faith alone, but faith and works.

Also, notice that James also cites the Genesis story of Abraham being justified by his faith that the Protestant website cited with it’s reading. Now James points out that Abraham did works and was even going to sacrafice his own son to God. As you see here, James said that he was justified by his works, also.

The Catholic Church is being completely Biblical when it says that justification comes from faith and works. Remember where the Bible came from.

I hope all this work to compile these posts were useful to you. God bless.
 
theblindlead said:
how would i respond to a person who sent me this
carm.org/ccc-2010-2027-2068

Do all those passages in Hebrews contradict the catholic church?
Click to expand...
Calm down.
Just look at was told. He writes one thing and reads another.
He says in the first paragraph:
“…Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”
Click to expand...
and he concludes:
Why is the RCC teaching that you attain salvation through observing the commandments when the Bible says we are saved apart from the works of the Law (Rom. 3:28-30; 4:5; Gal. 2:16)?
Click to expand...
Look: in the conclusion, the Holy Spirit disappeared, by magic.
I do not continue. If he does that with one, he will do that with the others. It is just a question of paying attention and reading carefully.

Do not be afraid. you are on the right path in the RCC
 
Faith without works, is dead!
-see James.

That’s ALL you have to say!

Let them explain away all they want…about ‘work’ because of your faith, or doing good through their faith…or whatever! The result is that, they are ‘working’ due to their faith! However they want to twist it, they are performing the Catholic understanding!

If you have faith and locked yourself away - alone- for the rest of your life until death, YOU WILL NOT BE SAVED!

Ask them to show one - just ONE - person in Scriptures that had faith with NO works!

The prisoner on the cross; the woman at the well; even the woman who reached out and touched the garment of Our Lord…ALL ‘worked’ through their faith!

It borders on stupidity sometimes how they can argue and preach (work) that there is no works necessary with faith, whilst they’re ‘working’! through that faith.

:cool:
 
I even like to read Matt 25 regarding the parable of the talents. The people are given a talent (I think this equates to faith/grace/salvation) but are expected to do something with gift and NOT just to hold onto it until they meet Jesus face to face.

Faith WITH works AFTER first RECEIVING faith from God. It all has to do with God and is all because of God. I’m just a dude. Nothing more.
 
Sola Fide–the belief that man is justified by faith alone–is a lie because Jesus taught that not everyone who believes He is God will make it to Heaven but only those who do His Father’s Will (Luke 7:21-23, 8:19-21).
 
Nothing in Hebrews is outside Catholic teaching…this entire page is nothing but a straw man argument making the claim the Catholic Church teaches something it doesn’t then arguing against it.

The Catechism, the Catholic Church, and the Bible all agree that it is Grace that saves, not faith or works, but both faith and works are necessary for salvation. First, a person must have faith in Jesus Christ, because through Jesus a person is saved. Second a person must obey the commandments as Jesus said, but also to do charitable acts (acts of love). After all, he said that Love is the basis of all the Commandments.

“Moved by the Holy Spirit” is the key phrase there. I noticed they excluded that phrase from the underlined text, but that is important when understanding those passages. We are not saved because of anything WE did, we are saved only by grace. It is grace that a person is moved to do charitable acts, and that is what the Catechism actually teaches-- clearly they either didn’t read it or they decided only to read a few lines of it and take it out of context. Yes, you must follow the commandments, you must participate in the Sacraments (the life of Christ), and you must do charitable acts. These are all commands in the Bible. But charitable acts, acts of selfless love, are actually how we preach the gospel, the Good News, not just reading it out loud and talking about.

"The Lord says: ‘These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.’ - Isaiah 29:13. God doesn’t care much for those that just honor him with their mouths, preaching the gospels but not living them That is why James says that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26). This is also why in the end, the goats will be sent away and the sheep will enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 25:31-46).

It is not about faith vs works, though the evangelicals want so desperately to have it that way, because then they can claim we are wrong and then say it’s proof they are correct. For Catholics, it is about saving Grace, and accepting that grace from God, which is freely given, with open arms. All one has to do is reach out and partake, but people with hardened hearts want to sit back and claim they are saved without ever actually doing anything.
 
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