I kinda like Pope Benedict’s comment about faith encompassing love (charity), and hope.
What about you?
Jon
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What about you?
Jon
Not really. Manny and I come from different mindsets, is all. I get a bigger headache from some of my Protestant brethren on issues like infant Baptism, the Eucharist, and oddly enough, how we define sola scriptura and sola fide.Your head should be hurting after that exchange.
Manny loves and defends his faith from his perspective. I actually think that often we end up talking past each other. I take 50% of the responsibility for that.
Jon
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IAGladfelter
Guest
Using John 3:16 as a proof-text for “sola fide” seems like a “stretch.” A really big one. I have to say that sola fide is not supported by scripture but “faith and works” certainly is, especially in St. Jame’s epistle. For what it is worth, your last sentence sounds (through my “filters”) like a statement in support of faith *and *works, not “sola fide.” Good.
Blessings,
Irl
And blessings to you.Using John 3:16 as a proof-text for “sola fide” seems like a “stretch.” A really big one. I have to say that sola fide is not supported by scripture but “faith and works” certainly is, especially in St. Jame’s epistle. For what it is worth, your last sentence sounds (through my “filters”) like a statement in support of faith *and *works, not “sola fide.” Good.
Blessings,
Irl
Sola Fide, at least the way I understand it, never discounts the importance of works. The Lutheran Confessions call good works necessary. We are justified by faith alone, but faith cannot be alone. An active faith saves. If that sounds like “faith and works” to you, good. Perhaps how we phrase it is a distinction that lacks a difference. Even better.
As for John 3:16, the writer only mentions belief as a requitement for eternal life.
Jon
EDIT: I regularly pray for your Church in it’s goals to seek reconciliation. Yours is an example we can look to.
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IAGladfelter
Guest
Thank you, Jon.And blessings to you.
Sola Fide, at least the way I understand it, never discounts the importance of works. The Lutheran Confessions call good works necessary. We are justified by faith alone, but faith cannot be alone. An active faith saves. If that sounds like “faith and works” to you, good. Perhaps how we phrase it is a distinction that lacks a difference. Even better.
As for John 3:16, the writer only mentions belief as a requitement for eternal life.
Jon
EDIT: I regularly pray for your Church in it’s goals to seek reconciliation. Yours is an example we can look to.
Blessings and Peace,
Irl
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Stouts989
Guest
Correct me is I’m wrong…but isn’t sola fide a matter of Grace?
I did a quick word search on BG of “free”.
Jesus speaking
Matthew 10:8
"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.
This is the only verse I could find Jesus mentioning something that was freely given. As mentioned before we read it all over Paul’s letters about salvation being a free gift from God. Also what I don’t find is Jesus saying that God’s Grace is merited or earned.
Back to Sola Fide…
Salvation by faith alone. If I understand it correctly. This is stated in reformed theology due to the concept of Grace and Justification within reformed circles. Paul teaches that both Grace and Faith are gifts from God. Jesus says this as well in John 6:65
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
No one can believe unless they are called by God the Father first. We also find this farther stated in Ephesians 1 and 1 Peter 1. Also Romans 8-9 is worth mentioning.
So can we not say that our belief is due to the granting of God’s Grace that is given at His will?
We also read that Justification comes through belief. (Roman 4:3, Gal 3:6, James 2:23).
Jesus tells us in John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
We are Justified by our belief.
John 5:22
"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
Jesus is the one making the final judgment. And everyone he “knows” will be saved from the rightful Judgment of God. Which brings me to my last point.
Salvation. What are we being saved from? I’ve read a few times on some of the articles posted here that we are being saved from our sin nature and the bondage of sin. But I think that’s only a small part of it. Christ came to ultimately save us from the righteous judgment of God for our rebellion against him. So salvation comes at justification. Once we are made right before God because of the completed work of Christ on the Cross…“it is finished”.
If I understand what I’ve been reading on this forum the RCC teach that Justification and Salvation happen at two different events. Justification at first communion? (was that it? or was it Baptism?) and Salvation once we stand before God and Jesus says yes or no (big paraphrase).
Seems like the RCC rejects Sola Fide because they teach that if we stop doing what God’s calls us to do then we loose our state of Grace with God and loose our salvation until one does a few things (confession, penances, etc…) and regains that state of saving grace.
Sorry for the long post, but that’s me trying to make sense of what I’ve been reading from scripture and both sides of the field.
Blessings!
I did a quick word search on BG of “free”.
Jesus speaking
Matthew 10:8
"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.
This is the only verse I could find Jesus mentioning something that was freely given. As mentioned before we read it all over Paul’s letters about salvation being a free gift from God. Also what I don’t find is Jesus saying that God’s Grace is merited or earned.
Back to Sola Fide…
Salvation by faith alone. If I understand it correctly. This is stated in reformed theology due to the concept of Grace and Justification within reformed circles. Paul teaches that both Grace and Faith are gifts from God. Jesus says this as well in John 6:65
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
No one can believe unless they are called by God the Father first. We also find this farther stated in Ephesians 1 and 1 Peter 1. Also Romans 8-9 is worth mentioning.
So can we not say that our belief is due to the granting of God’s Grace that is given at His will?
We also read that Justification comes through belief. (Roman 4:3, Gal 3:6, James 2:23).
Jesus tells us in John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
We are Justified by our belief.
John 5:22
"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
Jesus is the one making the final judgment. And everyone he “knows” will be saved from the rightful Judgment of God. Which brings me to my last point.
Salvation. What are we being saved from? I’ve read a few times on some of the articles posted here that we are being saved from our sin nature and the bondage of sin. But I think that’s only a small part of it. Christ came to ultimately save us from the righteous judgment of God for our rebellion against him. So salvation comes at justification. Once we are made right before God because of the completed work of Christ on the Cross…“it is finished”.
If I understand what I’ve been reading on this forum the RCC teach that Justification and Salvation happen at two different events. Justification at first communion? (was that it? or was it Baptism?) and Salvation once we stand before God and Jesus says yes or no (big paraphrase).
Seems like the RCC rejects Sola Fide because they teach that if we stop doing what God’s calls us to do then we loose our state of Grace with God and loose our salvation until one does a few things (confession, penances, etc…) and regains that state of saving grace.
Sorry for the long post, but that’s me trying to make sense of what I’ve been reading from scripture and both sides of the field.
Blessings!
The bolded parts sound like essentially the same thing.
I’m concerned that this denies free will. We are perfectly capable at anytime of rejecting His Grace and fall back into sin. In fact, we do it all the time. Christ therefore instituted the sacraments of confession and Holy Absolution, and the Eucharist as means of grace, available to the repentant sinner for the forgiveness of sins. But if we refuse to be repentant, and not have an active faith, we can certainly lose our justification.
Repeated and/or unrepented sin drives the Holy Spirit out. Contrition and firm belief that one is forgiven is needed to receive absolution.
Jon
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Disciple4Christ
Guest
Just to clear up a couple of (name removed by moderator)ortant points.
Jn 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. "
Read it carefully it does not say will have it says “might”
2nd How do you define belief it can have differing definitions in this case according to the context believing includes following, acting/" Works "
Jump up to Jn 3:21
"But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God. "
I disagree with this verse pulling anyhow it is for the people who choose to corrupt the word of God not to understand it. God is the divine author of the bible and it must be read that way not picked apart. God dosn’t contradict himself if you think he does you are misunderstanding the meaning.
Would you send your children to the library instead of school ( I don’t think so ) God knew the Church was needed to carry the true meaning of his word or it would have thousands of differant meanings as it does in the protestant faith. Use the grace of sense God gave you it is quite clear.
Prayerfully yours.
jim
Jn 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. "
Read it carefully it does not say will have it says “might”
2nd How do you define belief it can have differing definitions in this case according to the context believing includes following, acting/" Works "
Jump up to Jn 3:21
"But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God. "
I disagree with this verse pulling anyhow it is for the people who choose to corrupt the word of God not to understand it. God is the divine author of the bible and it must be read that way not picked apart. God dosn’t contradict himself if you think he does you are misunderstanding the meaning.
Would you send your children to the library instead of school ( I don’t think so ) God knew the Church was needed to carry the true meaning of his word or it would have thousands of differant meanings as it does in the protestant faith. Use the grace of sense God gave you it is quite clear.
Prayerfully yours.
jim
I’ve never read the word “might” in this sense to mean “maybe”. In fact, to me that kind of underminds the intent of the Gospel. What is more, John 3:18 then says
“He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
I’d be interested to hear what others think.
I agree with you that faith, a true faith that saves, is an active faith. It obeys Christ’s call to good works, and participates in one’s own sanctification.
Actually, Jim, I agree with you here, and I said so in post #2 on this thread
Jon
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SD_Catholic
Guest
Jon acts more “Catholic” than most CatholicsThank you, Jon.
Blessings and Peace,
Irl
SD
Thanks.Jon acts more “Catholic” than most Catholics
SD
IAGladfelter is a member of the ALCC, which I’d be looking into if they had a parish anywhere nearby.
Jon
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Bookworm88
Guest
Jon,
Do you believe that the Holy spirit jumps in and out of a person depending on whether or not the person is living sinlessly? In other words, do you lose the Holy Spirit as soon as you sin, and He comes back in when you do the sacraments? Does the Holy Spirit stay in you a while, even though you’ve sinned, just to give you a bit of time to repent, and if so, how long is that time period? I’m asking seriously, since I come from the framework in which, once a person is indwelt with the Spirit, they stay indwelt with the Spirit. They have become a new creation in Christ. This doesn’t mean that they lose the free will to commit sins, since everybody commits sins, but they never lose the eternal, spiritual life they are born into when they are indwelt with the Spirit. So I see a distinct “loss” that would happen if the Holy Spirit leaves, a loss that would require a new spiritual “birth,” and I’m wondering how that loss is understood by someone who believes the Spirit jumps in and out of people. Specifically, what is the time frame for the jump - is it after every sin or just repeated sins or is it after a certain time period has passed with no repentence?
What? Like he’s playing hop-scotch?
No, of course not. The Spirit knows where there is a strong faith, and he knows that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory”. And I also don’t see it as a stop-watch. But, once regenerate, our free will also allows one to have a change of heart, where the temptations of sin in this world can overrule God’s will, and eventually His presence in our hearts.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article11
Jon
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Bookworm88
Guest
Jon,What? Like he’s playing hop-scotch?
bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article11
Jon
Thanks for the answer. I asked you about the timeframe of the Spirit-leaving without any intention of arguing the point, and your answer of “eventually” satisfies my curiosity.
Thanks for the link as well. It had been a while since I had read the Augsburg Confession. I remember it from back in my Baptist Bible College days when we talked about how we traced our roots as Baptists not from the Reformers, but from the Anabaptists, who were condemned even by the Reformers.
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BRB1
Guest
Yes there are such proof texts.
Luke 23:41-43 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power.” And he said to him, “TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.”
B
BRB1
Guest
Other direct quotes from Christ:
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and BELIEVES him who sent me, HAS ETERNAL LIFE; he does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE.”
John 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD HAVE ETERNAL LIFE; AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.”
John 6:47-48 “Truly, truly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE. I am the bread of life.”
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and BELIEVES him who sent me, HAS ETERNAL LIFE; he does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE.”
John 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD HAVE ETERNAL LIFE; AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.”
John 6:47-48 “Truly, truly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE. I am the bread of life.”
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Stouts989
Guest
What you bolded essentially are the same thing. I just wanted to point out that we are ultimately being saved from God’s judgment because of our sin, not the sin itself.
How do you interpret 1 Peter chapter 1? Some key words he uses are, imperishable, undefiled, and protected (by the power of God). I don’t see where in scripture is says that we can fall in sin to the point of losing our inheritance.
Also how would you interpret 1 John 2:19?
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SD_Catholic
Guest
I seen that… I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of that before… probably will see it all the time nowThanks.
IAGladfelter is a member of the ALCC, which I’d be looking into if they had a parish anywhere nearby.
Jon
SD
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
You might if you look at it with an open heart… things like Romans 11…
"provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. "
Our inheritance is being grafted into the tree. We must remain in his kindness… so there must be a way to fall from his kindness… our sins and unfaithfullness can cause us to be cut off from the tree. But through God’s grace we can also be grafted back in.
Also you’ll remember God as the vine from John 15…
“Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.”
There must be a way for us not to remain in Him… I would imagine any of the things we do that would cause us to not remain in Him would be considered sins of some kind in the eyes of God.
SD
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