Sola Fide is driving me crazy!!

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There are too many holes in your theory for me to buy it
If you were to give actual quotes from their works that would be more convincing. Your editorial commentary regarding their position, as with Trent’s canon 32 and Dr. Ott, gives me little confidence in your accurate portrayal.
 
$5 says this thread brings a smile to Satan’s face.

“Oh goodie! Those Christians are bickering again, now they will be distracted whilst I do my dastardly deeds. MUVAHAHAHAHAH! I sure hope they don’t ever figure out that they are saying the same thing, sure would suck for me.”
 
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itsjustdave1988:
If you were to give actual quotes from their works that would be more convincing. Your editorial commentary regarding their position, as with Trent’s canon 32 and Dr. Ott, gives me little confidence in your accurate portrayal.
New Catholic Encyclopedia gives us the following information on this Bible:

The first Bible which may be considered a Polyglot is that edited at Alcala (in Latin Complutum, hence the name **Complutensian Bible), Spain, in 1517, under the supervision and at the expense of Cardinal Ximenes, by scholars of the university founded in that city by the same great Cardinal. It was published in 1520, with the sanction of Leo X. ** Ximenes wished, he writes, ‘to revive the languishing study of the Sacred Scriptures’; and to achieve this object he undertook to furnish students with accurate printed texts of the Old Testament in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin languages, and of the New Testament in the Greek and Latin. His Bible contains also the Chaldaic Targum of the Pentateuch and an interlinear Latin translation of the Greek Old Testament. The work is in six large volumes, the last of which is made up of a Hebrew and Chaldaic dictionary, a Hebrew grammar, and Greek dictionary. It is said that only six hundred copies were issued; but they found their way into the principal libraries of Europe and had considerable influence on subsequent editions of the Bible.193

Bruce Metzger:
Subsequent to Jerome’s time and down to the period of the reformation a continuous succession of the more learned** Fathers and theologians in the West maintained the distinctive and unique authority of the books of the Hebrew canon. Such a judgment, for example, was reiterated on the very eve of the Reformation by Cardinal Ximenes in the preface of the magnificent Complutensian Polyglot edition of the Bible which he edited (1514-17)…**Even Cardinal Cajetan, Luther’s opponent at Augsburg in 1518, gave an unhesitating approval to the Hebrew canon in his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament, which he dedicated in 1532 to pope Clement VII. He expressly called attention to Jerome’s separation of the canonical from the uncanonical books, and maintained that the latter must not be relied upon to establish points of faith, but used only for the edification of the faithful.(Bruce Metzger, An Introduction to the Apocrypha (New York: Oxford, 1957), p. 180.)

If you want more:
christiantruth.com/Apocrypha3.html

The information on bible editions is towards the bottom.

Brian
 
I don’t think I have much more to contribute to this thread. I’m going to read over what you wrote on faith/justification/salvation Dave. If you want to continue the OT canon discussion why don’t you respond in the “protestant bibles” thread where I’m already discussing it.

Thanks,
Brian
 
I guess I do have one more question for you Dave. This just kind of popped into my head when I was rereading your post.

Let’s say a Catholic is in the state of justification for 10 years or so and does all kinds of meritorious acts in Grace. Let’s say then he commits adultery. (Or even starts fantasizing about adultery, (lusts for a woman in his heart, same thing right? Matt 5)
He then loses his justification and, I assume, can only gain it back after having his mortal sin absolved by confessing to a priest.

When he gains his justification back, does he get to keep the credit for all the previous meritorious acts done in Grace, or does he start over?

Brian
 
Corpus Cristi:
Excuse me, but I must correct YOU by saying that it’s IMPOSSIBLE to correct a joke. She wasn’t stating something by fact, she was just expressing how you talk to me so much about being charitable, when you, a Lutheran, believe in salvation by faith alone, not taking into consideration that charity IS the greatest of all theological virtues, the others being hope and faith. She was telling the truth, she was just making the point that you’re not making accusations that agree with the truth, you were emphasizing charity more than faith, faith being what you believe alone can save someone.
I was aware that I was taking her joke more than a little literally, but I wanted to make a point.

I have not been emphasizing charity above faith. Quite the contrary, charity is the proof of a Saving Faith. The same St. Paul who says that Love is the greatest of Christian virtues in 1 Corinthians 13 also says in Ephesians 2:8 that “For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith—and this not from your own selves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.” In 1 John we are told “We love because God first loved us”…St John continues “We know we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death…let us not love in words or tongue but with actions and in truth.”

We are indeed saved by grace through faith for Christ’s sake, then because we belong to Him, we give evidence of that by loving one another. Our Love for each other, our charity, is a response to God’s redeeming love in Christ Jesus, it does not earn it. St. John says “By this we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.”

St. James warns us “let us not only be hearers of the Word, but doers also.” James of course is the one who says that “faith without works is dead”, is not really faith at all. I agree with him. Saving Faith is more than intellectual assent to a set of doctrines. James continues “The wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.” A person who talks the talk has to also walk the walk. It’s very simple.

We are not saved by the good works that we do, but the good works that we do, we do in response to the fact we have been saved as a free gift, as a loving response to God’s freely given Gift of His Love.

Have a nice day.
 
Brian,

Thanks for the Metzger quote, but I’d prefer a quote directly from the good Cardinal if you have it. Otherwise what your saying is “Metzger says Ximenes says …” which is a bit less compelling. Metzger’s normally does a pretty good job, but his scholarship differs with regard to the fathers view of Scripture as compared to other protestant scholars such as J.N.D. Kelly. Having the actual words of Cardinal Ximenes can often clarify a distinction that Metzger may not have portrayed as well as Ximenes himself.

Nevertheless, I don’t find any evidence from what you’ve provided that Ximenes revolted against the binding canonical precepts of his Church in favor of his own personal canon, but certainly like Erasmus and Cajetan, he held a heterodox theological opinion that was not yet heretical until Trent, but contrary to the common consent of the Church as declared at the Ecumenical Council of Florence over a century prior. Many things are binding that are not infallible dogma. Perhaps the good Cardinal acted illicitly and declared to the world his own private canon law contrary to the canon law of the Church. I’d have to see it in his own words before I draw that conclusion, however.
 
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headman13:
I was aware that I was taking her joke more than a little literally, but I wanted to make a point.

I have not been emphasizing charity above faith. Quite the contrary, charity is the proof of a Saving Faith. The same St. Paul who says that Love is the greatest of Christian virtues in 1 Corinthians 13 also says in Ephesians 2:8 that “For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith—and this not from your own selves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.” In 1 John we are told “We love because God first loved us”…St John continues “We know we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death…let us not love in words or tongue but with actions and in truth.”

We are indeed saved by grace through faith for Christ’s sake, then because we belong to Him, we give evidence of that by loving one another. Our Love for each other, our charity, is a response to God’s redeeming love in Christ Jesus, it does not earn it. St. John says “By this we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.”

St. James warns us “let us not only be hearers of the Word, but doers also.” James of course is the one who says that “faith without works is dead”, is not really faith at all. I agree with him. Saving Faith is more than intellectual assent to a set of doctrines. James continues “The wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.” A person who talks the talk has to also walk the walk. It’s very simple.

We are not saved by the good works that we do, but the good works that we do, we do in response to the fact we have been saved as a free gift, as a loving response to God’s freely given Gift of His Love.

Have a nice day.
You should read James 2:14-26. It implies that faith without works doesn’t mean that person has no faith at all. He says that faith without works is dead. The faith is there, but it’s dead. Lot’s of people like to stop at verse 17, but in my personal studies, I went on to the end of the chapter. I like doing that, because James calls these people who believe this “fools”, not that I’m calling you a fool, I don’t need to. Read that passage and see why.
 
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brianberean:
Let’s say a Catholic is in the state of justification for 10 years or so and does all kinds of meritorious acts in Grace. Let’s say then he commits adultery. (Or even starts fantasizing about adultery, (lusts for a woman in his heart, same thing right? Matt 5)
According to Catholic theology, a mortal sin is one that is a sin of grave matter, done deliberately and with full consciousness of the gravity of the sin. So, I’d say merely fantasizing about adultery is certainly a sin, but most likely a venial sin and not likely to be a mortal sin, depending upon the deliberateness of the will, the consciousness of the intellect, and the gravity of the sin. The gravity of fantasizing is far lower than that of the act of adultery. Both are the sin of adultery, but I’d say the act is mortal whereas the thought is venial.
He then loses his justification and, I assume, can only gain it back after having his mortal sin absolved by confessing to a priest.
Your assumption is incorrect. If his sin was mortal, he is no longer in a state of grace (justified). However, God forgives sinners who have truly contrite hearts. The Catholic is still bound to confess his sin to a priest, otherwise he cannot recieve Holy Communion. The binding acts of the penitent is contrition, confession, and satisfaction.

According to Pope St. Pius X:
Contrition or sorrow for sin is a grief of the soul leading us to detest sins committed and to resolve not to commit them any more. … Contrition means a crushing or breaking up into pieces as when a stone is hammered and reduced to dust. … The name of contrition is given to sorrow for sin to signify that the hard heart of the sinner is in a certain way crushed by sorrow for having offended God. … Of all the parts of the sacrament of Penance the most necessary is contrition, because without it no pardon for sins is obtainable, while with it alone, perfect pardon can be obtained, provided that along with it there is the desire, at least implicit, of going to confession. (Catechism of Pius X)
If the sinner had true contrition and at least an implicit desire to go to confession, his sin is forgiven. This distinction is not well understood by most Protestants, as I am often asked “What if he dies before he goes to confession?”
When he gains his justification back, does he get to keep the credit for all the previous meritorious acts done in Grace, or does he start over?
It is my understanding that his merit was not lost, but it was impeded by his wickedness. So it is not a matter of restoration of merit lost, although you’ll hear that term often used. But it is more a matter of “merit impeded by the obstacle which is in him … by subsequent sin, there arises an impediment to the preceding merit, so that it does not obtain its effect” (St. Thomas Aquinas, *Summa Theologica, *IIa, 114, 7). Once the obstacle is removed, it no longer impedes the preceding merit. I’m sure different scholars will use different terminology to express the same thing as St. Thomas. But, as I understand it, the efficacy of his meritorious acts are no longer impeded (and in this sense, restored) once his state of justification is restored by God. I don’t have Dr. Ott’s book handy at the moment, but if I remember correctly, he discusses this. I don’t know that this doctrine is dogmatically defined, however.

St. Athanasius commented on something similar, but refered to “grace” which remains, vice using the word “reward” or “merit.” The reward given by God for faithful deeds is indeed a grace. At any rate, one does not start over.

**St. Athanasius (ca. AD 358): **"when someone falls from the Spirit through any wickedness—that grace indeed remains irrevocably with those who are willing to repent after such a fall. (Discourses Against the Arians, 3, 24-25, ca. AD 358 )
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Brian,

Thanks for the Metzger quote, but I’d prefer a quote directly from the good Cardinal if you have it. Otherwise what your saying is “Metzger says Ximenes says …” which is a bit less compelling. Metzger’s normally does a pretty good job, but his scholarship differs with regard to the fathers view of Scripture as compared to other protestant scholars such as J.N.D. Kelly. Having the actual words of Cardinal Ximenes can often clarify a distinction that Metzger may not have portrayed as well as Ximenes himself.

Nevertheless, I don’t find any evidence from what you’ve provided that Ximenes revolted against the binding canonical precepts of his Church in favor of his own personal canon, but certainly like Erasmus and Cajetan, he held a heterodox theological opinion that was not yet heretical until Trent, but contrary to the common consent of the Church as declared at the Ecumenical Council of Florence over a century prior. Many things are binding that are not infallible dogma. Perhaps the good Cardinal acted illicitly and declared to the world his own private canon law contrary to the canon law of the Church. I’d have to see it in his own words before I draw that conclusion, however.
Did you see the part where the Biblia Compulsia was produced under the authority and consent of Pope Leo X? Could Leo have have held an heteordox view of the canon? Do you read latin? The only words Metzger gives from Cardinal Ximenes that are available at the web page I cited are in latin:

Verum quia quibusdam in locis ubi intergra est littera & incorrupta: miru in modum fauet Christianæ religioni: Idcirco reliquos libros totius Veteris testamenti e Chalaica lingua in latinam verti fecimus: & diligentissime cum sua latina traductione conscriptos in publica Complutensis nostræ Universitatis Bibliotheca reponi. At vero libri extra canonê: quos Ecclesia pontius ad ædificationem populi: q~s ad autoritatem ecclesiasticorum dogmatum confirmandam recipit: Græcam tm~ habent scripturam: sed cum duplici latina interpretatione: altera beati Hieronymi: altera interlineari de verbo ad verbû: eo modo quo in cæteris. Hæc autem de numero linguarum huius libri oportuit in vniuersum prælibasse (Prologus, Ximenes’ Complutensian Polyglot Bible (1514-1517).

See, it says it right there! 😃

Also from Metzger concerning the other bible that was endorsed by popes:
The earliest Latin version of the Bible in modern times, made from the original languages by the scholarly Dominican, Sanctes Pagnini, and published at Lyons in 1528, with commendatory letters from Pope Adrian VI and Pope Clement VII, sharply separates the text of the canonical books from the text of the Apocryphal books. Still another Latin Bible, this one an addition of Jerome’s Vulgate published at Nuermberg by Johannes Petreius in 1527, presents the order of the books as in the Vulgate but specifies at the beginning of each Apocryphal book that it is not canonical. Furthermore, in his address to the Christian reader the editor lists the disputed books as 'Libri Apocryphi, sive non Canonici, qui nusquam apud Hebraeos extant.'194

I don’t think these are unverifiable opinions given by Metzger, he is simply documenting verifiable historical facts that could easily be disproven in the circles of scholarship in which he belongs. You would give Metzger more credit than that wouldn’t you?

Brian
 
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brianberean:
I don’t see how you can’t see it. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Brian
It’s really not a matter of agreeing or disagree but understanding or not understanding. You misunderstand the Catholic teaching of justification by faith and works.

Here is another quote from the Council of Trent that may help make the Catholic teaching clearer:

“Faith, unless it be joined to hope and charity, neither makes us one with Christ nor loving members of his Body. That is why it is rightly said that faith by itself, if it has not works, is dead and idle, and that in Christ Jesus neither circumcision mor uncircumcisionis of any avil, but faith working through love.”

Faith, by itself without hope and charity, is nothing more than mental assent.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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headman13:
Nancy, pardon me for correcting you, but no, 1 Corinthians 13 is quite clear, “the greatest of these is charity” St. Paul says " Now I will show you a more excellent way, If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal…though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains and have not charity, I am nothing…though I give my body to be burned and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing…charity never fails…" That’s the Authorized Version of 1611, you realize of course that “charity” and “love” are the same word in Greek. After 30 years as a pastor I can tell you, Charity/Love towards one another is the greatest gift the Savior can give us. It’s a shame not to see more of it all around.
I was being facetious. I’m Catholic. I don’t believe in sola fide. 🙂

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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itsjustdave1988:
According to Catholic theology, a mortal sin is one that is a sin of grave matter, done deliberately and with full consciousness of the gravity of the sin. So, I’d say merely fantasizing about adultery is certainly a sin, but most likely a venial sin and not likely to be a mortal sin, depending upon the deliberateness of the will, the consciousness of the intellect, and the gravity of the sin. The gravity of fantasizing is far lower than that of the act of adultery. Both are the sin of adultery, but I’d say the act is mortal whereas the thought is venial.
I appreciate the fact that you usually support your answers with evidence. That is very refreshings, and in my experience, a contrast to most of the posters here.

The esteemed owners of this website do seem to disagree with you concerning “impure thoughts” being a mortal sin:
catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp
A mortal sin is any sin whose matter is grave and which has been committed willfully and with knowledge of its seriousness. Grave matter includes, but is not limited to, murder, receiving or participating in an abortion, homosexual acts, having sexual intercourse outside of marriage or in an invalid marriage, and **deliberately engaging in impure thoughts ** (Matt. 5:28–29).

As they reference Matt 5, I would also assert that Jesus would disagree with your opinion.
Your assumption is incorrect. If his sin was mortal, he is no longer in a state of grace (justified). However, God forgives sinners who have truly contrite hearts. The Catholic is still bound to confess his sin to a priest, otherwise he cannot recieve Holy Communion. The binding acts of the penitent is contrition, confession, and satisfaction.
I am having a hard time understanding how you can claim that Catholics can obtain absolution of sins without confessing them to a priest. I’m not talking about “what if they die on thier way to confession” or other extraordinary circumstances. I’m talking about normal day to day practice of the church where very few of the laity go to confession regularly.

Code of Canon Law:

Canon 959: In the sacrament of penance the faithful who confess their sins to a lawful minister, are sorry for those sins and have a purpose of amendment, receive from God, through the absolution given by that minister, forgiveness of sins they have committed after baptism, and at the same time they are reconciled with the Church, which by sinning they wounded.

Canon 960: Individual and integral confession and absolution constitute the sole ordinary means by which a member of the faithful who is conscious of grave sin is reconciled with God and with the Church.

Canon 965: Only a priest is the minister of the sacrament of penance.

Canon 966: 1. For the valid absolution of sins, it is required that, in addition to the power of order, the minister has the faculty to exercise that power in respect of the faithful to whom he gives absolution. 2. A priest can be given this faculty either by the law itself, or by a concession issued by the competent authority in accordance with can. 969 (The Code of Canon Law (London: Collins, 1983).

The code of canon law seems to say that normally, (normally most catholics have access to confession at least weekly so this would probably include the vast majority of catholics) the only way catholics can be absolved of their mortal sins is by priestly intercession through confession. Are you saying that these catholics can have an “implicit desire to go to confession” while it is available to them but yet they choose not to go?

Brian
 
Dave,

It also seems that you must at least admit that the RCC teaches that works (with faith) are necessary to regain justification after committing a mortal sin. Confession to a priest and penance are works, correct?

Brian
 
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brianberean:
Dave,

It also seems that you must at least admit that the RCC teaches that works (with faith) are necessary to regain justification after committing a mortal sin. Confession to a priest and penance are works, correct?

Brian
Just as repentence could be considered a “work”.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Just as repentence could be considered a “work”.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
Sounds like a response the Pharisees might have made to Jesus.

Breathing could also be considered a work, but not in the same legalistic requiremental sense.

Brian
 
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brianberean:
=Catholic4aReasn]
Just as repentence could be considered a “work”.

In Christ,
Nancy :)Sounds like a response the Pharisees might have made to Jesus.
Is it your contention that you do not have to repent, Just acknowledge Jesus as Lord?
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Here is another quote from the Council of Trent that may help make the Catholic teaching clearer:
“Faith, unless it be joined to hope and charity, neither makes us one with Christ nor loving members of his Body. That is why it is rightly said that faith by itself, if it has not works, is dead and idle, and that in Christ Jesus neither circumcision mor uncircumcisionis of any avil, but faith working through love.”
Faith, by itself without hope and charity, is nothing more than mental assent.
RIGHT! now draw my triangle.
DIFFERENT MEANINGS!!
WE HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS!
****!
PEOPLE CAN YOU ALL NOT UNDERSTAND!!

Let me whip out my handy translation guide.

A Catholic says “faith, hope, charity”

We look at the Protestant translation and it says “FAITH!”

I’m going to have an aneurism. We use the same words, yet we attach different meaning to the words. Poop-sticks, I should have given up a long time ago, but THIS IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.
 
Brian,

I don’t really see where the Bible dedicated to Leo, and written with Leo’s consent means that Leo agrees with Cardinal Ximenes’ preface. Do you have quotes from Leo giving us his view of which books of the canon were inspired?

Nevertheless, the issue was whether something not yet defined infallibly is binding. The answer is “yes.” One can have heterodox opinions (as related in a preface) regarding the inspiration of canonical books. For example, “The only difference is that Luther said clearly and positively what Erasmus often merely suggested by a doubt.” (Catholic Encyclopedia - “Desiderius Erasmus”). Luther made his own canon. If Luther had merely expressed his heterodox opinion as Cajetan and Erasmus did, he would not have been a heretic. Unfortunately, his heresy was more profound than his views of Scritpure.

Before Trent, if one insisted canonical books ought not to be in the Bible, they were heterodox. If they insisted they are not in the Bible, their assertion was incorrect and illicit (unlawful, contrary to the binding authority of the Church). After Trent, if one insists they ought not OR they are not in the Bible, they are heretical.
 
Brian,

As far as “deliberately engaging in impure thoughts” being a mortal sin. I agree. As I said before, mortal sin depends upon the gravity of the matter, whether it is done *deliberately *(full consent of the will) and whether it is done with full consciousness that the sin is mortal (full consent of the intellect). Deliberately engaging in impure thoughts is not necessarily the same as merely lusting in your heart. The former is clearly deliberate while the latter may not be. If one is quite deliberate in their sin of lust while having full consciousness of that their lust is indeed a mortal sin, then it is mortal.

I would be very suprised if they disagreed with my criteria for mortal sin, as this criteria is not mine, but the Catholic Church’s criteria.

“For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”” (CCC 1857)

"One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent. " (CCC 1862)

The Church understands that there are impediments to the full consent of will and conscience which affect the imputability of a sin.

“*Imputability *and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.” (CCC 1735)

Ignorance, however, is in itself a sin, unless it is invincible ignorance.
 
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