As opposed to me…Id grapple with him and tap him out…but thats just my style.Hey Brian - I’ll wrestle with ya on this works stuff, and I promise to be niceYour green, Im black. Let me start by bringing up one of your last posts:
I didn’t say absolution. I said forgiveness, also called “remission of sin.” Absolution has a very specific meaning in the Catholic Church. Observe,
The Catholic Church also speaks of “attrition.” This is sorrow for sin that is NOT based upon love of God above all, but merely upon fear of punishment and/or detest for the ugliness of sin. If one were to have attrition, instead of true contrition, then their mortal sins are not remitted unless they receive absolution in the sacrament of penance. Attition is also called imperfect contrition or “contrition of fear”, as distinct form perfect contrition or “contrition of charity.” Attrition is not sufficient for remission of mortal sin without absolution.
No. Sorrow for sin, whether attrition or contrition, is “a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit.” (CCC 1453). In my view, is no more a “work” than repentance.
I tried that with some Protestant friends. They said “No, we do not mean faith=faith, hope, and charity; we by Faith Alone (Sola Fide) ‘by believing on the name of Jesus are you saved!’”. Nothing else is necessary. They, and a large percentage of Protestants, believe that they only have to believe. If they do that, they can do any thing they want, Steal, Kill, Rape, anything - They Have Been Saved and nothing can take that away from them, ever for any reason.
Breathing is involuntary. I’m not sure how that could be considered a “work”.
I’m right there with ya! I think that a lot of misunderstanding occur due to misunderstandings of each others terms.
But Satan has that kind of faith (mental assent). What Satan lacks though is what Paul refers to as the “obedience of faith (Romans 1:5, 16:26)” and “faith working through love (Gal. 5:6)”. It is necessary for salvation that one have an ACTIVE faith. An INACTIVE faith is dead. If you have all faith to remove mountains but don’t have love you are NOTHING (1 Cor. 13:2). Paul doesn’t say that you are nothing except saved, but rather nothing…period.
No. Repentance is a gift of God and not a work. It does not save, but an individual cannot be saved without it. Salvation includes deliverance from sin as a ruling power in one’s life. Coming to Christ for salvation must mean a turning from sin (repentance) or Christ cannot be received.
Cardinal Cajetan:
Hmmm…so I take it youre saying that you have been delivered from all sin in your life???
No offense Phil, but I’m quickly approaching burnout on this thread. I probably would have booked a while ago, but I ran into Dave who actually produces evidence and sources to back up his arguments. Anyway, thanks for the offer.
See underlined. Try to read more carefully.
Brian
Does this seeming sophistry (the difference between absolution and remission) have a precedent in Scripture?
But the CCC says works must accompany contrition (plan to have recourse to sacramental confession, accompanied with obligatory penance).
…and I’ve debated Protestants who claim Scripture is our sole authority…crazy Protestants…
No offense but your friends are quite clearly idiots, or have a Pastor who is. I’ve been a faithful Methodist my whole life. Very much involved in the church from an early age. Only recently because of their tolerance am I buggering out. And I have never heard anyone teach that. Yes initial justification is non-revokable, God isn’t going to toss your original sin back on you. But the common understanding is that you sure aren’t going to go the Heaven by rejecting God. Now murder would be rejecting God, because you are putting yourself above him, same with any other mortal sins.
I said that I agreed with St. James, didn’t I? But faith that is dead no longer exists, it is not faith at all. I still don’t like your attitude. I bet you haven’t even looked at the Joint Catholic-Lutheran Statement on Justification. I’d be surprised if you had. I came to this forum because my sister is thinking of converting to Catholicism and wanted my advice. I have an answer for her now. I was in Junior High School before I ever saw a Roman Catholic in the flesh. Growing up in western North Carolina there just weren’t any. In North Carolina, the fire-breathing Baptists were in the vast majority. They of course thought that they were right and everybody else was wrong. Then I did my doctoral work with the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod, which bills itself as the"true visible Church of Christ on Earth" That’s why I’m not there any more. I am very suspicious of anyone’s claim to have a corner on the truth. I have admired the Roman Church for many years. I met some lovely nuns when my best friend went to a Catholic High School later on. I studied Patristics and Latin at a Vincentian Seminary while doing my undergraduate degree. I have always had a very high opinion of Roman Catholics, admittedly from a distance. I feel sort of like the man who said “The more people I get to know the better I like my Dog.” The more I see of Roman Catholic fundamentlists like you, the more I rejoice in the Reformation. Thank God for Martin Luther, is all I have to say. I must also say that oafish louts like you are not very good advertisements for Christianity of any sort, much less Catholicism.
I think that we have a meeting of the minds on these issues. Both of our teachings are in agreement with regard to salvation through faith with hope and charity. However, I am afraid that it is contrary to my experience that the “groups out-there” whos teaching is contrary are the minority. Most of them are not members of any mainstream denomination. Almost everyone I meet identifies themselves as non-demoninational “just christians”. There is very little thinking involved and they believe that “once saved. always saved” and nothing can change that. And they understand salvation to come from “faith alone”, not faith with hope and charity.