Sola Fide..................

[SacredHeart1987]

Catholics like to say one must do good works for salvation and Protestants will say according to some no good works are nec. Most will tell you though that good works are a product of salvation. Let me demonstrate how simple a good work is.

I changed my childs dirty diper today. This is a good work. Why would this posibly be a good work? God commands it. Where? Ephesians 6:4; And now a word to you fathers. Don’t make your children angry by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction approved by the Lord. If I were not to change my childs diaper this would anger them and possibly in the long run hurt them. This would clearly violate God’s command about angering my children.

Now does doing this good work earn me salvation? No! I am simply following what God commands us throught the Bible to do.

Catholics don’t work for they’re salvation

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by SacredHeart1987
Our view of salvation is completely different from the protestants.​

Protestants believe in imputed righeousness. Catholics believe in infused righteousness.

You are correct. It is an important difference that is not addressed in the JDDJ, and must be for unity to happen. However, I do believe it can be reconciled, and does not constitute “completely” different.

Catholics don’t work for they’re salvation

You are correct here, as well, just as Lutherans do not believe we are free to ignore good works Christ commands and the Holy Spirit provides.

Epitome of the Formula of Concord

1. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

Point being, while there are still important differences, there are also significant foundational agreements, some of which have only arisen in the last 50 years.
To say our differences don’t really matter understates the divergences that remain.
To say, as you did, that what we believe is completely different similarly overstates the matter.
An honest, realistic, and sober dialogue needs to contine, one that is filled with mutual Christian love for each other, and unbounded hope in the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

Jon

 

[meandean]

Can we get a deffinition of the following.

imputed righeousness and infused righteousness. I don’t think I am the only one

imputed = it is finished infused = things still need to be done

 

[workingman]

imputed = it is finished infused = things still need to be done

Thank you

 

[workingman]

Catholics don’t work for they’re salvation

Yes I know. This is somthing I have learned as I have come home.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

But in one verse later we are told that we are created to live in good works.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe that if a person has faith but doesn’t do a single good work in his life, then he will get to heaven?

End =///= means. Faith is the means of justification - that we are created to walk in good works which God has prepared for us to do, does not make those works the means whereby we enter into the life in which we are to do them. That would be self-contradictory, as well as unsound doctrine.​

As for works: what work did the penitent thief do ? The ordinary course of salvation can’t be understood, if exceptional cases are confused with it. God works miracles - does that make them his ordinary works ? So here too.

Salvation is by grace - there is no way by which we can earn it: no matter how much we may try to re-interpret the grace of faith into becoming a work. To attempt that, is to follow Pelagius, who believed that the beginning was in man. It might build up our self-esteem if we thought we could be the authors of our salvation, rather than being able to be saved only by the free & sovereign & unearnable grace of God, & not by works at all: but it is not even what the CC teaches. Neither human merit before works, nor merit afterwards, can be smuggled into grace as a co-cause of salvation: grace cannot be merited, without being dis-graced. If we can be saved without the grace of faith, we certainly have no need of God.

God saves through grace, a gift that is gratuitous, free. Faith comes from God’s free grace - not from man: that would be ridiculous.

 

[JonNC]

End =///= means. Faith is the means of justification - that we are created to walk in good works which God has prepared for us to do, does not make those works the means whereby we enter into the life in which we are to do them. That would be self-contradictory, as well as unsound doctrine.​

As for works: what work did the penitent thief do ? The ordinary course of salvation can’t be understood, if exceptional cases are confused with it. God works miracles - does that make them his ordinary works ? So here too.

Salvation is by grace - there is no way by which we can earn it: no matter how much we may try to re-interpret the grace of faith into becoming a work. To attempt that, is to follow Pelagius, who believed that the beginning was in man. It might build up our self-esteem if we thought we could be the authors of our salvation, rather than being able to be saved only by the free & sovereign & unearnable grace of God, & not by works at all: but it is not even what the CC teaches. Neither human merit before works, nor merit afterwards, can be smuggled into grace as a co-cause of salvation: grace cannot be merited, without being dis-graced. If we can be saved without the grace of faith, we certainly have no need of God.

God saves through grace, a gift that is gratuitous, free. Faith comes from God’s free grace - not from man: that would be ridiculous.

Well said, Michael. The level of agreement between our communions is greater than many of their members wish to accept.

JOn

 

[raumzeitmc2]

“Narrow is the gate and *difficult *is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Mt 7:14)

Faith is the means of justification - that we are created to walk in good works which God has prepared for us to do, does not make those works the means whereby we enter into the life in which we are to do them. That would be self-contradictory, as well as unsound doctrine.

Grace is that which assists us in keeping the commandments. And it is by keeping the commandments - through grace - that we hope to arrive at eternal life. The question of good works aside, we certainly cannot enter into life without, at the very least, avoiding mortal sin and keeping the commandments. Should we happen to fall however, we ask the good God, who is “kind to the ungrateful and the wicked” (Lk. 6:35) to forgive us and to give us the grace to start over.

As for works: what work did the penitent thief do ?

Everyone may read about the The Ten Good Works of The Thief,

here:

The Salvation of The Thief. Lecture XII.

Adapted from: The Heresy of Salvation in a Moment by H.H. Pope Shenouda III, Published by Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate, 1985, ISBN 9770027359, 9789770027356

Contents:
openlibrary.org/b/OL1329010M/%5BWorks-of-H.H.-Pope-Shenouda-III%5D
books.google.com/books?id=-GiyAAAACAAJ&dq=%22Heresy+of+Salvation+in+a+Moment%22&lr

And who knows? Perhaps the Good Thief was already, in a certain sense, ‘saved’ before he went to the Cross!

Salvation is by grace - there is no way by which we can earn it: no matter how much we may try to re-interpret the grace of faith into becoming a work. To attempt that, is to follow Pelagius, who believed that the beginning was in man. It might build up our self-esteem if we thought we could be the authors of our salvation, rather than being able to be saved only by the free & sovereign & unearnable grace of God, & not by works at all: but it is not even what the CC teaches. Neither human merit before works, nor merit afterwards, can be smuggled into grace as a co-cause of salvation: grace cannot be merited, without being dis-graced. If we can be saved without the grace of faith, we certainly have no need of God.

By the same token, we cannot teach ourselves the faith. We cannot find salvation by our own efforts of bible study. We cannot learn our way to heaven. This is why we need the guidance of the Church. This is why we need to be united to the Church which Christ founded. For it is through the Church that God normally distributes his graces.

God saves through grace, a gift that is gratuitous, free.

Which grace? After all, grace comes to us constantly; it is not a one-time event! So by *which *of these continuous graces are we saved?

---

There is, then, no true chastity, whether conjugal, or vidual, or virginal, except that which devotes itself to true faith. For though consecrated virginity is rightly preferred to marriage, yet what Christian in his sober mind would not prefer catholic Christian women who have been even more than once married, to not only vestals, but also to heretical virgins? So great is the avail of faith, of which the apostle says, “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin;” Romans 14:23 and of which it is written in the Epistle to the Hebrews, “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” Hebrews 11:6

St. Augustine, On Marriage and Concupiscence (Book I).
newadvent.org/fathers/15071.htm

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Where do Protestants get the idea of “Faith Alone”? From what I know they claim to get it from the Bible, yet the Bible seems to be horribly against “Sola Fide”.

Jesus himself disqualifies the man made theology of “sola fide”
John 6:37
Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,
38
because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.
39
And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.
40
For this is the will of my Father,** that everyone who sees the Son **and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

I posted this in another thread, but seeing is believing thank God for the Eucharist;

 

[Stouts989]

Catholics don’t work for they’re salvation

Then why is salvation considered a process in RCC doctrine?

 

[Stouts989]

Jesus himself disqualifies the man made theology of “sola fide”
John 6:37
Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,
38
because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.
39
And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.
40
For this is the will of my Father,** that everyone who sees the Son **and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

I posted this in another thread, but seeing is believing thank God for the Eucharist;

I think I heard a ripping sound

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I think I heard a ripping sound

Gabriel of 12;
I have no clue to the meaning of your above comment?

If Jesus built his Church before the Catholic church canonized the bible books, then is it logical that “Sola Scripturalists” dont have a church, nor do they have any Oral Apostolic Traditions as the bible speaks of ? Jesus himself declared, he has much more to reveal to his church that was not recorded in scripture.

John 16:12
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
13
5 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

How does a Sola Scripturalist deal with the following scriptures that conflict with your new invented theology of late sola scriptura?

John 21: 24 It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, 14 and we know that his testimony is true. 25 **There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.
**
2Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought to give thanks to God for you always, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits 7 for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth. 14 To this end he has (also) called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting encouragement and good hope through his grace, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen them in every good deed and word.

2Thess.3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the endurance of Christ. 6 We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us.

1Timothy 3:14 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. 16 Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, Who 7 was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

1Corinthians11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. 2 ** I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.** 3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Stouts989,

You say that,

“I believe in Sola Scriptura, because Jesus believed in Sola Scriptura. ‘It is written!’"

But surely you would acknowledge that it is one thing for Christ, the Son of God, indeed, the very Word of God, to quote from His Scriptures, and quite another for mere men to do the same?

Christ, after all, taught with infallible authority! He provided the pattern, not of private interpretation, but of a Living Teaching Infallible Authority to which all true Christians are obliged to give assent!

So what justification, then, have you for your assertion that Christ believed in Sola Scriptura??