E
Eden
Guest
I’m confused too. You’re profile says “Catholic” but your interpretation of Eph. 2: 8-9 says “Protestant”.
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A
awalt
Guest
Eden,
Maybe I am not perfect in my communication skills, and maybe it’s easy to confuse what’s said in forum replies, and it’s not like this isn’t an area of easy confusion given the hundreds of discussions on faith, works, and grace that are on this very forum and others. However, I don’t understand however why you would attack me and my beliefs when I was just trying to explain what I thought. A rpely like that certainly doens’t do anything to clarify the matter, educate me, or communicate what area seems unclear and/or wrong to you. That’s why I tried to explain my thoguhts, I obviously did a poor job. But why the personal attack?
At the risk of further attacks I’ll leave it that yes I absolutely am Catholic, I am a sinner, I am not perfect, but I sure don’t want to be personally attacked on a forum like this. Go after someone else please, I am done.
Maybe I am not perfect in my communication skills, and maybe it’s easy to confuse what’s said in forum replies, and it’s not like this isn’t an area of easy confusion given the hundreds of discussions on faith, works, and grace that are on this very forum and others. However, I don’t understand however why you would attack me and my beliefs when I was just trying to explain what I thought. A rpely like that certainly doens’t do anything to clarify the matter, educate me, or communicate what area seems unclear and/or wrong to you. That’s why I tried to explain my thoguhts, I obviously did a poor job. But why the personal attack?
At the risk of further attacks I’ll leave it that yes I absolutely am Catholic, I am a sinner, I am not perfect, but I sure don’t want to be personally attacked on a forum like this. Go after someone else please, I am done.
S
Subrosa
Guest
Have you read Ephesians 2:10?
For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the Good Works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
So, if you read Eph 2:8, 9, & 10 you come up with the whole of Catholic teaching on the subject. Just reading 8 & 9 doesn’t say it all, as you put it.
Isn’t that cool?
Subrosa
E
Eden
Guest
I’m sorry that you feel that I attacked you. I thought that you were Protestant when you posted - “Ephesians 2:8 - check my sig at the bottom, it says it all!” So, I was trying to give you a Catholic perspective on that passage. When I read your second response, I checked your profile and saw that you are “Catholic”. That is why I said "I’m confused too. You’re profile says “Catholic” but your interpretation of Eph. 2: 8-9 says “Protestant”. That is not an attack. I truly am confused. At least you know what you mean. So, we’ll leave it at that. No hard feelings, I hope.
M
Mickey
Guest
I believe Eden’s reply was not contrary to what you have stated. However, Scripture is sometimes referring to works of the Mosaic law. The context of certain passages will show this.
Peace, Mickey
R
reen12
Guest
Hello, all,
My understanding of the Protestant position, as I’ve
written elsewhere, is that, for a Protestant,
“faith” means a “lively faith”, which embraces
what Jesus commanded, as well as what
St. James calls “works.”
I see it as a matter of emphasis.
I’ve not met or read material by one Protestant
that would support the idea of “have faith” and
then sin away!
Even Luther was using hyperbole when he
referred to “sin strongly” [or whatever the exact
phrase was.]
Just a thought,
reen12
My understanding of the Protestant position, as I’ve
written elsewhere, is that, for a Protestant,
“faith” means a “lively faith”, which embraces
what Jesus commanded, as well as what
St. James calls “works.”
I see it as a matter of emphasis.
I’ve not met or read material by one Protestant
that would support the idea of “have faith” and
then sin away!
Even Luther was using hyperbole when he
referred to “sin strongly” [or whatever the exact
phrase was.]
Just a thought,
reen12
M
Mickey
Guest
“Sin boldly”–my flesh tells me this would be fun, but my spirit says beware!
L
Little_Mary
Guest
Hey reen 12
I don’t know if this is what you are referring to here but there are those who believe that they are “once saved always saved”. Albeit I do not know how they explain how sin is dealt with.
Just my :twocents:
God bless
Little Mary
(reen, too) hee hee!!
A
awalt
Guest
OK I am back - hate the sin not the sinner 
I did not mean to imply that good works are unimportant or are not necessary for salvation. I think this is a cause and effect:
a. Of course none of us knows with certainty who is saved and who is not; that is up to God.
b. The person who has strong faith, will do good works. Why? (1) God’s growing grace and our growing faith with the aid of the Holy Spirit will push us to it (that’s why Ephesians say we should not boast, the good works are because of God inside us, we are not able to do good works by ourselves WITHOUT any help from God!) (2) God’s gift of Grace of Salvation drives us to do good works because His plan for Salvation requires us to Glorify God in Heaven through our works, like Jesus.
c. If someone IS NOT doing good works, they probably don’t have strong faith. In other words, if I am a major-league sinner,partake of no sacraments, don’t pray, don’t do anything the Church or Bible suggest, I am fooling myself thinking I am saved, or that I have any kind of strong faith - my actions indicate I have rejected God’s gift of Grace! So how do you build your faith, since it is our choice? Almsgiving, prayer, reading the Word (plus some other things - sacraments, adhere to the commandments and don’t sin, all of which the Bible and the Church have clarified for us).
So I believe that the harder I CHOOSE to do almsgiving, prayer, read the Word, and the other “stuff”, I will see even more good works coming from myself – if I don’t, my faith and my relationship with God is not good. The outward good works will heighten my belief that I am probably saved, but that’s God’s decision. But if I do what He says I have a better chance.
So I disagree with people that say it’s:
-Salvation by faith only…
-By Grace only…
-By Good works only…
In closing, I found this, which I think says exactly what I have said here:
The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification essentially says that Lutherans and Catholics explain justification in different ways but share the same basic understanding. The central passage reads, “Together we confess: by grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.” **The declaration acknowledges that good works are a genuine *response ***to God’s grace—not the *cause *of it.
How is this incorrect, and do you have references?
.
I did not mean to imply that good works are unimportant or are not necessary for salvation. I think this is a cause and effect:
a. Of course none of us knows with certainty who is saved and who is not; that is up to God.
b. The person who has strong faith, will do good works. Why? (1) God’s growing grace and our growing faith with the aid of the Holy Spirit will push us to it (that’s why Ephesians say we should not boast, the good works are because of God inside us, we are not able to do good works by ourselves WITHOUT any help from God!) (2) God’s gift of Grace of Salvation drives us to do good works because His plan for Salvation requires us to Glorify God in Heaven through our works, like Jesus.
c. If someone IS NOT doing good works, they probably don’t have strong faith. In other words, if I am a major-league sinner,partake of no sacraments, don’t pray, don’t do anything the Church or Bible suggest, I am fooling myself thinking I am saved, or that I have any kind of strong faith - my actions indicate I have rejected God’s gift of Grace! So how do you build your faith, since it is our choice? Almsgiving, prayer, reading the Word (plus some other things - sacraments, adhere to the commandments and don’t sin, all of which the Bible and the Church have clarified for us).
So I believe that the harder I CHOOSE to do almsgiving, prayer, read the Word, and the other “stuff”, I will see even more good works coming from myself – if I don’t, my faith and my relationship with God is not good. The outward good works will heighten my belief that I am probably saved, but that’s God’s decision. But if I do what He says I have a better chance.
So I disagree with people that say it’s:
-Salvation by faith only…
-By Grace only…
-By Good works only…
In closing, I found this, which I think says exactly what I have said here:
The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification essentially says that Lutherans and Catholics explain justification in different ways but share the same basic understanding. The central passage reads, “Together we confess: by grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.” **The declaration acknowledges that good works are a genuine *response ***to God’s grace—not the *cause *of it.
How is this incorrect, and do you have references?
.
S
scylla
Guest
I as a Catholic don’t have a problem with the idea of Faith alone if understood correctly. (now don’t go crazy, stay with me and hear me out)
The problem is not with the idea that we are saved by God’s Grace and by Faith, the problem is with the word alone.
Understanding it in a reformed protestant view is almost identical to the Catholic understanding of it, just expressed differently.
This I believe is a more proper way of understanding faith alone, which is by God’s Grace, faith alone produces our works, not of our own doing all glory to God. (hopefully I said that right, I can’t speak for all protestants)
Understanding it in a once saved always saved view, is contrary to Catholic understanding and denies any obedience to faith or free will.
The problem is stating a doctrine with a statement like alone then adding qualifiers to it. Like this, faith alone that isn’t alone but proven with works.
I had a missionary of Calvary Chapel come to my house and quote Ephesians 2:8 and stop there. Which is misleading, but doesn’t contradict Catholic doctrine if you read rest. I had him read the rest and then he changed the subject as he really believed in Faith Alone, in the OSAS view. (not all Calvary Chapel adherents believe in OSAS)
Here it is complete
Ephesians
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Now I will stress that Catholics believe we are saved by God’s Grace, through faith for good works (obedience working through love), not of our own doing all glory to God.
This doesn’t deny faith, works or love which is possible with some understandings of Faith Alone.
In Christ
Scylla
P.S. If I have mis-stated anything feel free to correct me, I will humbly bow to anyone’s better explanation.
The problem is not with the idea that we are saved by God’s Grace and by Faith, the problem is with the word alone.
Understanding it in a reformed protestant view is almost identical to the Catholic understanding of it, just expressed differently.
This I believe is a more proper way of understanding faith alone, which is by God’s Grace, faith alone produces our works, not of our own doing all glory to God. (hopefully I said that right, I can’t speak for all protestants)
Understanding it in a once saved always saved view, is contrary to Catholic understanding and denies any obedience to faith or free will.
The problem is stating a doctrine with a statement like alone then adding qualifiers to it. Like this, faith alone that isn’t alone but proven with works.
I had a missionary of Calvary Chapel come to my house and quote Ephesians 2:8 and stop there. Which is misleading, but doesn’t contradict Catholic doctrine if you read rest. I had him read the rest and then he changed the subject as he really believed in Faith Alone, in the OSAS view. (not all Calvary Chapel adherents believe in OSAS)
Here it is complete
Ephesians
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Now I will stress that Catholics believe we are saved by God’s Grace, through faith for good works (obedience working through love), not of our own doing all glory to God.
This doesn’t deny faith, works or love which is possible with some understandings of Faith Alone.
In Christ
Scylla
P.S. If I have mis-stated anything feel free to correct me, I will humbly bow to anyone’s better explanation.
M
Mickey
Guest
Well posted scylla and awalt.
If I might add something–if the word “alone” must be used–to say that we are saved by “grace alone”. Without God’s grace, we have nothing. It is by this grace, and this grace alone, that we have a vibrant faith and the good works that are borne of that faith.
Blessings to all,
Mickey
E
Eden
Guest
Here is an informative article about “The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification”: franciscan-archive.org/apologetica/sungenis.html
I just want to mention that that declaration addresses only the common ground between Catholics and Lutherans. This was not a joint declarations between Catholics and all of the variations of Protestantism i.e. Fundamentalists who frequently cite this passage.
I just want to mention that that declaration addresses only the common ground between Catholics and Lutherans. This was not a joint declarations between Catholics and all of the variations of Protestantism i.e. Fundamentalists who frequently cite this passage.
A
awalt
Guest
Yes!!! :dancing:
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Nooooo.That means that He did not mean it (in the full context of the rest of the Word of God) as you have chosen to erroneously interpret it.
R
reen12
Guest
Hello, all,
See, what I don’t get here is the folllowing:
Blessed Assurance means to have [and
continue to have] “lively” faith, born of grace.
Lively faith = obedience to the commandments
and to that commanded by Jesus in the gospels.
Therefore, assurance of salvation [in the sense
that Jesus will keep His promise.]
To wander off and to commit what Catholics call
“mortal sin” is to no longer have “lively faith”,
*in *grace.
Is it that the RCC stresses our cooperation with
grace? And the Blessed Assurance position
takes that cooperation as implied in “lively faith.” ?
The *real *difference, that I note, is that some
Catholics seem hag-ridden by:
sin
what kind of sin
what degree of sin
the action that must needs be taken to restore
my relationship with God [sacrament]
While, again, to me, evangelicals seem to have
joy. They tell God they’re sorry, and life goes
on. [it is also unlikely that they have a card
in their wallet, saying: “I am a Catholic. In
case of an accident, please call a priest.”]
Remember that, elder Catholics among us?
Additionally, while the person is laying there,
they are told to say an act of perfect contrition,
while waiting for the priest to arrive.
Honestly, this goes beyond the realm of the
humanly possible…to tell God I’m sorry, not
because I “fear the pains of hell”, but solely
because I’ve offended Him?..when I may
“cross over” at any moment?
Sing Ho! for the evangelicals!
reen12
See, what I don’t get here is the folllowing:
Blessed Assurance means to have [and
continue to have] “lively” faith, born of grace.
Lively faith = obedience to the commandments
and to that commanded by Jesus in the gospels.
Therefore, assurance of salvation [in the sense
that Jesus will keep His promise.]
To wander off and to commit what Catholics call
“mortal sin” is to no longer have “lively faith”,
*in *grace.
Is it that the RCC stresses our cooperation with
grace? And the Blessed Assurance position
takes that cooperation as implied in “lively faith.” ?
The *real *difference, that I note, is that some
Catholics seem hag-ridden by:
sin
what kind of sin
what degree of sin
the action that must needs be taken to restore
my relationship with God [sacrament]
While, again, to me, evangelicals seem to have
joy. They tell God they’re sorry, and life goes
on. [it is also unlikely that they have a card
in their wallet, saying: “I am a Catholic. In
case of an accident, please call a priest.”]
Remember that, elder Catholics among us?
Additionally, while the person is laying there,
they are told to say an act of perfect contrition,
while waiting for the priest to arrive.
Honestly, this goes beyond the realm of the
humanly possible…to tell God I’m sorry, not
because I “fear the pains of hell”, but solely
because I’ve offended Him?..when I may
“cross over” at any moment?
Sing Ho! for the evangelicals!
reen12
M
Mickey
Guest
Ah yes, but you have generalized, reen. I know evengelicals who claim to confess their sins to God, but continue to experience an emptiness. I’ve even got a few of them to admit that confession to a priest as a representative of Christ is a bonus in the Catholic/Orthodox Church. They actually enjoy the idea of being held accountable for their sins. Go figure!
S
scylla
Guest
I understand what you mean, reen.
I know many evangelicals, was one myself, there is a joy there, a justifiableness so to speak.Sola Fide can give you that feeling. I feel as it is a very superficial type of faith, I am just speaking of my own experience though. (Calvary Chapel)
You will see the majority of people who do not understand or have been poorly catechized with a more somber faith in Catholicism as it does stress truths such as obedience to faith, carry your cross daily. Many converts, better catechized, younger parishoners don’t experience this as the Catholic Church has been improving religious education and more properly implementing Vatican II.
The Catholic Church then goes on to emphasize the spirit of the beatitudes. Charity, Humility, and a giving of oneself are a constant necessity in a Christian life, but that doesn’t really jive with the American culture, but again stressed in the Catholic Church.
When I went to Calvary Chapel, I have found that they have made the religious system very efficient in cooperation, enjoyable services and many, many ways to get involved.
I might be wrong but I think it was Chuck Smith who revolutionized religious services by having a band up front, this keeps attention and makes for a very involving service.
Many Evangelical Churches have really tapped into the American culture and found ways to involve their adherents, and really grow their churches.
From my point of view in being in both the Catholic Church and Evangelical Churches, I see many things Catholics can learn from the Evangelical Churches in stressing the joy of the Christian life, but our real joy should be expected in the next life.
I as a Catholic feel real joy, a freedom and complete confidence in my faith. I frequently feel when I discuss my faith with others a tension in their position, which I am free from now that I am Catholic.
I am proud to be Catholic, boring sermons, lousy singing and all, as I understand what it is to be truly free.
God Bless
Scylla
I know many evangelicals, was one myself, there is a joy there, a justifiableness so to speak.Sola Fide can give you that feeling. I feel as it is a very superficial type of faith, I am just speaking of my own experience though. (Calvary Chapel)
You will see the majority of people who do not understand or have been poorly catechized with a more somber faith in Catholicism as it does stress truths such as obedience to faith, carry your cross daily. Many converts, better catechized, younger parishoners don’t experience this as the Catholic Church has been improving religious education and more properly implementing Vatican II.
The Catholic Church then goes on to emphasize the spirit of the beatitudes. Charity, Humility, and a giving of oneself are a constant necessity in a Christian life, but that doesn’t really jive with the American culture, but again stressed in the Catholic Church.
When I went to Calvary Chapel, I have found that they have made the religious system very efficient in cooperation, enjoyable services and many, many ways to get involved.
I might be wrong but I think it was Chuck Smith who revolutionized religious services by having a band up front, this keeps attention and makes for a very involving service.
Many Evangelical Churches have really tapped into the American culture and found ways to involve their adherents, and really grow their churches.
From my point of view in being in both the Catholic Church and Evangelical Churches, I see many things Catholics can learn from the Evangelical Churches in stressing the joy of the Christian life, but our real joy should be expected in the next life.
I as a Catholic feel real joy, a freedom and complete confidence in my faith. I frequently feel when I discuss my faith with others a tension in their position, which I am free from now that I am Catholic.
I am proud to be Catholic, boring sermons, lousy singing and all, as I understand what it is to be truly free.
God Bless
Scylla
C
candrew
Guest
Reen, I don’t quite understand what you’re saying.
It seems to me, as a Spiritual(this would mean that I accept what the Church teaches, but I am not baptised nor do I have physical communion with the Holy Catholic Church.) Catholic, and a physical Non-Catholic that some people seem . . . afraid of Confession.
It’s like . . . they think that it should just be them confessing to God. I don’t need a priest.
But I think it’s your point of view. I look forward to my first confession. Why should such a grace be seen as such a burden? In Confession, as in all of the sacraments, we recieve grace from God, and in Confession, absolution. His grace is beyond all measure. Why should we take that for granted?
And, God forbid, why should it be a burden?
But some see it that way. And it’s their loss, I say.
Here’s hoping, Class of '06.
reen12:
It seems to me, as a Spiritual(this would mean that I accept what the Church teaches, but I am not baptised nor do I have physical communion with the Holy Catholic Church.) Catholic, and a physical Non-Catholic that some people seem . . . afraid of Confession.
It’s like . . . they think that it should just be them confessing to God. I don’t need a priest.
But I think it’s your point of view. I look forward to my first confession. Why should such a grace be seen as such a burden? In Confession, as in all of the sacraments, we recieve grace from God, and in Confession, absolution. His grace is beyond all measure. Why should we take that for granted?
And, God forbid, why should it be a burden?
But some see it that way. And it’s their loss, I say.
Here’s hoping, Class of '06.
I say sing ho! for the Catholics. But that’s me. shrugs
M
Malachi4U
Guest
Don’t forget verse 10 for ‘context’. Works prove our Faith! They flow out of our Faith. Without works there is no Faith.
When I was a Protestant I never bothered to read Eph 2:10 for perspective. If I did I ignored it like all the others in those churches did/do.
Eph 2:10 (KJV) “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
R
reen12
Guest
Hi, candrew,
quote, candrew:
You’ve been catechized as the class of '06.
I’ve found freedom and joy among the evangelicals
as a *result *of being “catechized” in 1953 !
I do, however, agree with you on one point:
“Horray for the class of '06” !!!
and
quote: candrew:
“I say sing ho! for the Catholics. But that’s me. shrugs”
I say: Keep the faith, candrew.
Illogical on my part, but meant sincerely, nonetheless.
Be well,
reen12
quote, candrew:
Of course you don’t know what I’m saying!
You’ve been catechized as the class of '06.
I’ve found freedom and joy among the evangelicals
as a *result *of being “catechized” in 1953 !
I do, however, agree with you on one point:
“Horray for the class of '06” !!!
and
quote: candrew:
“I say sing ho! for the Catholics. But that’s me. shrugs”
I say: Keep the faith, candrew.
Illogical on my part, but meant sincerely, nonetheless.
Be well,
reen12
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