Sola Sciptura Question

[JackVk]

I don’t dislike all Protestants, just the ones that live only to criticize Catholics with their ignorant remarks. Inocente is okay.

My problem with Sola Scriptura is that it is so vulnerable to corruption. It turns the Word of God into the pastor’s political views, which causes varying interpretations within the same alleged denominations.

With that, it can cause pseudo-Christian cults to pop up, like the Westboro Baptist Church (eww!) They claim to be Baptist, but I know inocente here is not like them. Many Protestants I know are friendly, God-loving people. I even met a few that were leaders on a Catholic retreat!

 

[PJM]

=Redratfish;6880036]Today while debating a Protestant, I realize that everything that he asked me, I had to defend with Bible verses.

Everything that the Church teaches is based off of the Bible, and can be supported, if not outright stated in the Bible. I know the Church does not abide by Sola Sciptura, but I am wondering what to call what we do stand by. Everything the Church teaches has Biblical background, but there are other forms of teachings, other than Scripture. What is this called?

“Sacred Tradition” an Objective Common sense:

Jesus is God [Luke 1:35]
Mary is the Mother of Jesus [Lk. 1:34-35]
THEREFORE Mary is [MUST BE] the Mother of God

2 Thess. 2: 13 “But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thess. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you

2 Thess. 2: 15-16 "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.”

**1 Cor. 11 2: 2 ** “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you”

2 Thess. 3: 6-7 “ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you,”

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[inocente]

Struck a chord, huh?

Nope, I just took it you’ve now had two off-days.

Understand that I wasn’t around for the Reformation, and also lack the gene to want to fight other Christians in an increasingly secular world.

 

[inocente]

My problem with Sola Scriptura is that it is so vulnerable to corruption. It turns the Word of God into the pastor’s political views, which causes varying interpretations within the same alleged denominations.

With that, it can cause pseudo-Christian cults to pop up, like the Westboro Baptist Church (eww!)

“Pseudo-Christians” is a neat term. From this side of the pond it seems like there are parts of the USA where they outnumber real Christians, is that how it looks from Kansas?

Here’s another pseudo-church for your collection. They are planning a burn-the-Quaran-day, seem to hate anyone called “Homo”, and I couldn’t find one Christian sentiment on their website.

I’m a Baptist because I need to find my own way, and that did make me vulnerable starting out as an ex-atheist. But interpret the Bible in the Spirit, and the Spirit in the Bible, “and we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Rom 8:28 NIV ).

As you say bro , it’s not that hard to spot a brother or a sister. Living in Spain, most of my friends are Catholic. I’m not sure what all the fuss is about, and they don’t seem to be either.

 

[JackVk]

“Pseudo-Christians” is a neat term. From this side of the pond it seems like there are parts of the USA where they outnumber real Christians, is that how it looks from Kansas?

Here’s another pseudo-church for your collection. They are planning a burn-the-Quaran-day, seem to hate anyone called “Homo”, and I couldn’t find one Christian sentiment on their website.

I’m a Baptist because I need to find my own way, and that did make me vulnerable starting out as an ex-atheist. But interpret the Bible in the Spirit, and the Spirit in the Bible, “and we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Rom 8:28 NIV ).

As you say bro , it’s not that hard to spot a brother or a sister. Living in Spain, most of my friends are Catholic. I’m not sure what all the fuss is about, and they don’t seem to be either.

There’s also a fellow in St. Mary’s, Kansas, that thinks he is the Pope, touting himself as “Pope Michael”.

I call them pseudo-Christians because they preach nothing but hate and they condemn people, which we all know is the exact opposite of what Christ taught us. Yet, they claim to be Christians because they slap a few Bible quotes together that support their political agenda.

And yes, the states do have some pretty oddball “churches”. I live in the religious nuthouse known as the state of Kansas. Down south you find those Assemblies of God that hold snakes and speak in tongues. And then, if you remember Jim Jones, the leader of the cult mass suicide at Jonestown, Guyana.

But you’re okay. I’m happy you’ve found your way to Christ. Not the way I did it, but whatever floats your boat

 

[thegreypiper]

Inocente: Much more important than “avoiding hurting one another” is defending the truth. That is the point, the whole point, and nothing but the point.

Regarding the original issue, other posts have already laid out many good citations and debating points. The bottom line, though, is that to effectively counter Protestant arguments, you have to get off the verse-slinging merry-go-round (C.S. Lewis’ “Affectionate Uncle Screwtape” highly recommended this pastime!), which has solved nothing and created some 40 thousand protestant sects. You must start by pulling the Sola Scriptura rug from under their feet, and showing them why their fundamental premise is itself in error.

Remember, the Church came first! And existed for 400 years before the contents of the Bible were settled – and guess who settled it!

 

[PJM]

=mackbrislawn;6912488]The reason why Catholicism is attacked is because Protestants need for Catholics to be wrong in order for themselves to be right. It’s almost as if Protestantism’s reason for existence is to show Catholicism wrong! Because if Catholics are right,there is no need for Protestants to exist. Therefore, in order to justify their existence, they are continually looking for ways to denigrate Catholicism: it is built into their blood. Some of their denigrations are pretty ridiculous, like the one that Catholics don’t believe in the Resurrection because the crucifix has Jesus is still on the cross. It doesn’t matter how silly an objection may be, there are Protestants who will believe it.

The reverse is not true–Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are. They are simply taught their faith. They are not taught by the contrast and compare method used by many non-Catholics.

That is because the Catholic Church is like Yahweh, I AM. The Church is built upon the rock of Jesus, not some man’s opinion of what scripture means.

CORRECT! Very well explained.

 

[inocente]

Inocente: Much more important than “avoiding hurting one another” is defending the truth. That is the point, the whole point, and nothing but the point.

Regarding the original issue, other posts have already laid out many good citations and debating points. The bottom line, though, is that to effectively counter Protestant arguments, you have to get off the verse-slinging merry-go-round (C.S. Lewis’ “Affectionate Uncle Screwtape” highly recommended this pastime!), which has solved nothing and created some 40 thousand protestant sects. You must start by pulling the Sola Scriptura rug from under their feet, and showing them why their fundamental premise is itself in error.

Romans 14 warns against putting obstacles in each others way, and I should have stuck to Paul’s wording. I wouldn’t say that anyone has tried, or at least managed, to do that on this thread.

Yes we must defend the truth, but there are verses somewhere that tell us not to judge each other unless we also want Almighty God to pay special attention to us.

According to my handy Wikipedia, C.S. Lewis was brought up in the Church of Ireland and then joined the Church of England, and extolled the need for unity (a la Romans 14) rather than taking pot-shots at each other.

Incidentally, according to my handy Cambridge dictionary, a sect is “a religious group which has developed from a larger religion and is considered to have extreme or unusual beliefs or customs”. According to JackVk there are a lot of them in the States, and they are so extreme and unusual that they don’t appear to own one Bible between them. But if you are also calling something like the Anglican Church a sect, it may not go down too well with Christ. Just a thought.

Remember, the Church came first! And existed for 400 years before the contents of the Bible were settled – and guess who settled it!

A Jew might argue that another faith came first. I’m not so hot on history, is it true that 400 years after Christ there was only one Church but then there was a schism or two? Anywho, where are you going with this, are you wanting to return me to my atheist traditions, deepen my trust in Christ, or just say that your mom is bigger than my mom? If the latter, gladly agreed.

 

[inocente]

CORRECT! Very well explained.

Well again, if everywhere in that post you change “Protestants” to “some folk” then it might have made sense. But to lump me in with them is plainly FALSE!!! (I can shout too).

If “Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are”, are you and mackbrislawn following the teaching of the Church? (serious question, not rhetorical).

 

[thegreypiper]

Romans 14 warns against putting obstacles in each others way, and I should have stuck to Paul’s wording. I wouldn’t say that anyone has tried, or at least managed, to do that on this thread.
…
Anywho, where are you going with this, are you wanting to return me to my atheist traditions, deepen my trust in Christ, or just say that your mom is bigger than my mom? If the latter, gladly agreed.

For someone who claims to abhor mudslinging, you certainly seem to get off by stirring up the pot. Not to mention dropping your own assertions, then complaining that any response to them is out of line; then misrepresenting a very simple statement (I said nothing about the age of Judaism vs Christianity, nor did I mean to, and you know it.)

CSL also spent many years as an atheist before experiencing conversion. Yes, his “Mere Christianity” was an invitation to Christianity in general, rather than defence or advocacy of any denomination. But even this reflects the “soft” Protestant notion that there are many different ways to be right. The trouble with this is, it then becomes difficult to say anything is wrong. Still, he does have some brilliant insights which are almost universally applicable to Christians of any variety. (That doesn’t stop some fundamentalists from saying his stuff should be burned, tho’.)

There was only one Church for more than a thousand years, by the way. Protestants seem to be very bad at history when it regards the Church, hmm, wonder why. I don’t understand why (well I guess I do, really) why Protestants are so giggity over the concept of “One True Church,” founded in 33AD and existing continuously with a verifiable history to the present day. How is this any different from studying e.g. the British monarchy? There is a succession of kings and queens, with the family or house name changing every few hundred years, with an occasional dispute over succession, with an occasional pretender to the throne turning up and raising a ruckus (not to mention an army of Highlanders), but there is no serious question that HM Queen Elizabeth II is the lawful and legitimate successor to the throne once occupied by Richard the Lion Hearted and William the Conqueror.

Or take the US Constitution. If you went and set up shop on an island, nailed a copy the USC on the front door of the courthouse, and announced that your island was now the United States of America, and just as valid a USA as that other place over on the mainland, is there any reason anyone should take you seriously? Or would you sit and pout that mean people were just putting obstacles in your way?

And where am I going with this? Just trying to educate you. The old fashioned way. Sometimes a rap on the knuckles is necessary to get the student’s attention.

O, FYI, my mother died about 15 years ago. Yesterday was her birthday.

 

[PJM]

=inocente;6922379]Romans 14 warns against putting obstacles in each others way, and I should have stuck to Paul’s wording. I wouldn’t say that anyone has tried, or at least managed, to do that on this thread.

Yes we must defend the truth, but there are verses somewhere that tell us not to judge each other unless we also want Almighty God to pay special attention to us.

According to my handy Wikipedia, C.S. Lewis was brought up in the Church of Ireland and then joined the Church of England, and extolled the need for unity (a la Romans 14) rather than taking pot-shots at each other.

Incidentally, according to my handy Cambridge dictionary, a sect is “a religious group which has developed from a larger religion and is considered to have extreme or unusual beliefs or customs”. According to JackVk there are a lot of them in the States, and they are so extreme and unusual that they don’t appear to own one Bible between them. But if you are also calling something like the Anglican Church a sect, it may not go down too well with Christ. Just a thought.

A Jew might argue that another faith came first. I’m not so hot on history, is it true that 400 years after Christ there was only one Church but then there was a schism or two? Anywho, where are you going with this, are you wanting to return me to my atheist traditions, deepen my trust in Christ, or just say that your mom is bigger than my mom? If the latter, gladly agreed.

While one MUST NOT hide the truth or hide from it; it neverthrless MUST be shared with charity and a goal of enlightenment; not winning, not simply make this or that point; but with a goal of sharing our God Given Faith. after all, its not simply ours, no it is Gods and we are simply care takers of it.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Salvatore123]

CS Lewis was very good friends with Tolkien, and readily admitted that GK Chesterton was the primary reason for his conversion to Christianity.

Although Lewis’s views were far more Catholic than Anglican, Lewis never converted, despite several entreaties to do so by many Catholic friends.

Towards the end of his life, Lewis became very “prickly” about the Catholic-issue and refused to discuss it further.

Why he never converted to Catholicism given his deeply held views seems to be a mystery.

 

[inocente]

For someone who claims to abhor mudslinging, you certainly seem to get off by stirring up the pot.

No but to get this absolutely straight once and for all on mackbrislawn’s post and the issue of mudslinging:

I do not attack Catholicism.
I do not need Catholics to be wrong in order for myself to be right.
I do not think Protestantism’s reason for existence is to show Catholicism wrong.
I do not justify my existence by continually looking for ways to denigrate Catholicism.
It is not built into my blood.
I do not make denigrations.
I do not believe silly objections.
I do not use any contrast and compare method.

I do find it mighty strange why some Christians (not you) take pot shots at other Christians when there are so many who don’t know Christ.
I do find great value in Santa Teresa and other saints, I listen to many Mass settings and find spiritual meaning, I appreciate what the Church has inspired, but the history of the Church itself not so much.

How is this any different from studying e.g. the British monarchy?

Christ is King?

Or take the US Constitution. If you went and set up shop on an island, nailed a copy the USC on the front door of the courthouse, and announced that your island was now the United States of America, and just as valid a USA as that other place over on the mainland, is there any reason anyone should take you seriously? Or would you sit and pout that mean people were just putting obstacles in your way?

The Bible is the USC?

O, FYI, my mother died about 15 years ago. Yesterday was her birthday

I was alluding to what I think you call Mother Church. My mom passed eight years ago, September 29. Sometimes I miss her and sometimes feel guilty for forgetting. Commiserations.

 

[inocente]

While one MUST NOT hide the truth or hide from it; it neverthrless MUST be shared with charity and a goal of enlightenment; not winning, not simply make this or that point; but with a goal of sharing our God Given Faith. after all, its not simply ours, no it is Gods and we are simply care takers of it.

Love and prayers,
Pat

Agreed and Proverbs 4.18 to you for saying that.

 

[thegreypiper]

No but to get this absolutely straight once and for all on mackbrislawn’s post and the issue of mudslinging:

Christ is King?

The Bible is the USC?

.

You are being spectacularly frivolous and obtuse. You know exactly what I mean, and are dodging the questions with a smug little smiley. FAIL.

Let’s try this again – how does analysis of the Church differ from analysis of any other organization in terms of objective history and the authority of continuity?

Try it this way – how does someone picking up a Bible, reading it, and going off to start his own little church differ in any essential way from someone picking up a copy of the Constitution and going off to set up his own United States of America? Or someone named “Lancaster” going over to claim the throne of England on no more basis than the name?

 

[inocente]

You are being spectacularly frivolous and obtuse. You know exactly what I mean, and are dodging the questions with a smug little smiley. FAIL.

Walk a mile in my shoes. Well OK, just looking around CAF for the last three months will do.

Catholics intent on explaining the soul using quantum mechanics, or the presence of Christ in the Eucharist with string theory . Who look for evidence of God in the big bang, as if it isn’t everywhere we look. Folk who say that condoms are OK and the homosexual act is none of anyone else’s business (both of which are fine with me) going against the teaching of their Church. Catholics who are completely bemused at why God would give us a conscience when some other Catholics say they blindly follow the Church whatever. Guys who think that one billion Muslims are all mad terrorists, or that the President of the US is the antichrist. Lost souls who have somehow got it into their head that they can sin in a dream.

Can’t you see that there are denominations everywhere we look, every one of us is different, none of us is near perfect? If you are all fired up to teach, why me and not other Catholics?

PJM has credentials with me on the basis of post #31. Where are your credentials to say it is me that is being obtuse? Who are you to tell me “Just trying to educate you. The old fashioned way. Sometimes a rap on the knuckles is necessary to get the student’s attention.”?

Who are you to be my teacher? And once again, where are you going with this?

(I have to have my oldest dog put down today. He is 17, now little more than an oily rag, and there is no option. So forgive me if I’m not exactly brimming over with charity this morning. But really now.)

 

[colmcille1]

I’d read Romans 14 together first. It’s truly amazing how some Christians can hurt each other. If you are both acting in conscience then neither of you have anything to defend.

Hi inocente, its not related to the thread. Just popping in to say thank you for your pm. Having technical difficulties with my application so sorry(and to the other posters too) for the intrusion. Must dash. God Bless.

 

[inocente]

colmcille1 – thank you, that was very kind. :thankyou:

The vet put down our oldest dog at 11:30 yesterday. Chance had been picked up by the rescue home as a young stray, and had been there just over a year when we adopted him. He was an unwanted oily rag that reminded me of Isaiah 53:2. I named him Chance not because I redeemed him but the other way around, if that makes any sense. That’s not from spelling dog backwards or thinking he was a Christian or anything.

Anyway, worrying about him had put me on edge over the past few weeks, and I realize I’ve been over-the-top at times.

Apologies all round.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Today while debating a Protestant, I realize that everything that he asked me, I had to defend with Bible verses.

Everything that the Church teaches is based off of the Bible, and can be supported, if not outright stated in the Bible. I know the Church does not abide by Sola Sciptura, but I am wondering what to call what we do stand by. Everything the Church teaches has Biblical background, but there are other forms of teachings, other than Scripture. What is this called?

I also use the Catechism of the Catholic church, if I can get the person to understand that even if they’re Lutheran, the catholic church is the universal church of Christ, and that the answers to all Christian questions (except mysteries), are to be found in the bible, the CCC, and papal encyclicals. You can generally just go from the bible, unless they’re attacking a tradition issue or a dogma. Then it’s time for the ccc, and www.vatican.va.

Peace,

Steve

 

[PJM]

=inocente;6922383]Well again, if everywhere in that post you change “Protestants” to “some folk” then it might have made sense. But to lump me in with them is plainly FALSE!!! (I can shout too).

If “Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are”, are you and mackbrislawn following the teaching of the Church? (serious question, not rhetorical).

My dear friend in Christ,

Me being old AND THICK headed I don’t understand the question, which I will be happy to seriously rspond too if you can reword it?

Love and prayers,
Pat - PJM