Sola Sciptura Question

[PJM]

=inocente;6922383]Well again, if everywhere in that post you change “Protestants” to “some folk” then it might have made sense. But to lump me in with them is plainly FALSE!!! (I can shout too).

If “Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are”, are you and mackbrislawn following the teaching of the Church? (serious question, not rhetorical).

Dear friend in Christ;

If your question steems from post 27, which is as I stated the truth. Then because it is true, although could have been articulated in various manners; YES we are by virtue of sharing the truth; in line with Catholic understanding on this issue.

I would ask that you review the following carefully and prayerfully:

**Matt. 7:13 **"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[16] You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
[17] So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
[18] A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.
[21] "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Then reread Matt. 16:19 its true and its literal!

There are in excess to 100 references to ONLY one Church / One Faith in th NT…

NOT the mutiple THOUSANDS in the Protestant fold.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[mtoddm]

You are being spectacularly frivolous and obtuse. You know exactly what I mean, and are dodging the questions with a smug little smiley. FAIL.

Let’s try this again –

Please try again…this time with more charity and less sarcasm - I used to be a Baptist myself, and would never have been won over to the Catholic Church by your arguments, though they are correct in substance - sometimes the truth makes a heavy sledgehammer -

—todd
catholicsojourner.blogspot.com

"God opposes the proud [even when they are right], but gives grace to the humble [even when they are wrong]." James 4:6

 

[inocente]

NOT the mutiple THOUSANDS in the Protestant fold.

Brother (or is that taking it too far ),

It’s hard to underestimate some of our differences in our approach to Christ. I believe we are a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9) with one great Priest (Hebrews 7:26-28) and would not otherwise have been able to find my way. When I sin, I take it on trust that I am forgiven as soon as I acknowledge the sin, and then go about trying to repair any damage I caused others. One upside is it would be impossible for me to suffer scrupulosity (Psalm 103:12). One downside is that there are some mighty strange denominations out there.

One of the reasons why I joined CAF, apart from all the nice people, was to try to work out something that troubles me. All of my Catholic friends in Spain have fallen away from the Church and from Christ with one exception, and even she is reluctant to talk about her faith (although we have prayed together). Part of the reason is the increasing secularization of Europe, but also (I think) Spain has only been a democracy for 30 years, and people still cherish their new-found freedom. Rightly or wrongly, the Church is associated in their minds with a past they want to forget.

I’m not trying to turn them into Baptists, the issue for me is much more basic - Christ is being lost. People are increasingly materialistic, fundamentalist, or pick’n’mix New Agers. Why is that happening when all of us know that Christ came to set us free?

My only conclusion so far is that somewhere along the way the Good News is getting lost. For example, whatever our views on Genesis 1, who cares? How does it help a lost soul to worry about how God made us, when what they need is redemption and friends they can trust?

So the Church sounds right to me if “Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are”. By all means let’s try to overcome this chaos and disunity, while remembering Rom 14:8 “If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.”

Come back to me good buddy.

 

[inocente]

Just found this on another thread. Is it the teaching referred to by “Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are”. If so, it’s pretty darned excellent, imho.

Lumen Gentium number 15

 

[PJM]

=inocente;Brother (or is that taking it too far ),

It’s hard to underestimate some of our differences in our approach to Christ. I believe we are a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9) with one great Priest (Hebrews 7:26-28) and would not otherwise have been able to find my way. When I sin, I take it on trust that I am forgiven as soon as I acknowledge the sin, and then go about trying to repair any damage I caused others. One upside is it would be impossible for me to suffer scrupulosity (Psalm 103:12). One downside is that there are some mighty strange denominations out there.

I’m not trying to turn them into Baptists, the issue for me is much more basic - Christ is being lost. People are increasingly materialistic, fundamentalist, or pick’n’mix New Agers. Why is that happening when all of us know that Christ came to set us free?

My only conclusion so far is that somewhere along the way the Good News is getting lost. For example, whatever our views on Genesis 1, who cares? How does it help a lost soul to worry about how God made us, when what they need is redemption and friends they can trust?

So the Church sounds right to me if “Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are”. By all means let’s try to overcome this chaos and disunity, while remembering Rom 14:8 “If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.”

Come back to me good buddy.

Dear Brother in Christ;

Your views on sin are your own; not those of Jesus Christ.

All Informed, Practicing Catholics know that Protestants are wrong. What amazes us is that Protestants don’t seem to know or for that matter care? [Most of us do understand why; nevertheless it’s amazing.]

There are in the NT OVER 100 references to ONLY One Church / One Faith. So how can God be satisfied with the MANY thoudsands of additions to His one orginal CC?

Here is God’s teaching on sin:
** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you [SINGULAR] forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you [SINGULAR] retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Matt.16:19 “I [God singular] will give you singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Brother, this is YOUR God taking to you; not simply Catholic Opinion.

May God grant you Wsdom and Understanding
Pat

 

[inocente]

There are in the NT OVER 100 references to ONLY One Church / One Faith. So how can God be satisfied with the MANY thousands of additions to His one original CC?

Brother,

The church (I dare not capitalize it here) is all of us that belong to the Lord.

1 John 1:8-10 – I confess my sins directly without a mediator in Christ. It’s hard for either of us to understand each other on this.

1 John 5:16-17 – I’m not sure what the point is, could you explain? I read it in the context of the chapter and preceding verses “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.” – 5:13-15 NIV

1 John 5:20-23 - This may cause you more apoplexy (I heard you shouting!). My belief is that no one but God has the power to forgive sins. The disciples are empowered to proclaim forgiveness or non-forgiveness. If I’m found wanting here or elsewhere then I trust in being judged fairly - isn’t that something we share?

Matthew 16:19 – see Bible Commentator for various opinions, some of which may invoke more red. Personally, nothing has ever jumped off the page here, with or without any commentaries.

There’s a verse about Peter that I dwell on often in trying to balance my ego - ‘When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”’ - John 21:21 NIV. Is Peter showing concern for John, or worrying that he may have to suffer his burden alone, or just wanting to know what the future has in store? Whatever, ‘Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”’

 

[PJM]

=inocente;6940344]Brother,

The church (I dare not capitalize it here) is all of us that belong to the Lord.

1 John 1:8-10 – I confess my sins directly without a mediator in Christ. It’s hard for either of us to understand each other on this.

**My dear friend your assuming a RIGHT not given as as option by the very God you profess to worship and OBEY? To assume that Christ did not mean what HE SAID very well might be a GRAVE MORAL ERROR.

Where in the Bible does it grant permision for you to obey ONLY those few things you seem to find agreement with? I suggest you reread the passages I have provided. They could save your soul.**

Mark.4: 41 "And they were filled with awe, and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even wind and sea obey him?”

John.3: 36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

1 John 5:16-17 – I’m not sure what the point is, could you explain? I read it in the context of the chapter and preceding verses “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.” – 5:13-15 NIV

Sure: There are lesser sin against God that weaken ones relationship with Him [venial sins] and FAR more grave sins [MORTAL] that like the name implies are soooo serious to completely fracture ones relationship with God. A simple "opps, I’m sorry is ONLY the first step to forgiveness."

What’s missing here AND IN PROPER UNDERSTANDING is “IF YOU OBEY HIM!” It’s not a free-pass based simply and ONLY on faith alone.

Hearing and DOING something about it are NOT the same thing. Again your using “selective” logic, that God will not accept.

**1 John 5:20-23 **- This may cause you more apoplexy (I heard you shouting!). My belief is that no one but God has the power to forgive sins. The disciples are empowered to proclaim forgiveness or non-forgiveness. If I’m found wanting here or elsewhere then I trust in being judged fairly - isn’t that something we share?

**Again dear friend your assuming a RIGHT NOT granted you by Christ. Are you saying this ONLY applies t Catholics and the rest of the bible to eveyone? Very foolish and a frightful position to hold at the final Judgement friend. And yes I was yealling; trying to get yor attention.:**o

Matthew 16:19 – see Bible Commentator for various opinions, some of which may invoke more red. Personally, nothing has ever jumped off the page here, with or without any commentaries.

**Read it with me… word for word: I Jesus [who am your God and your Judge] give and assign to you Peter [Singular on behalf of my new Chrurch / new faith / New Covenant the power and authority in my absence] “the Keys to the gates of heaven.” Meaning that you are impowered to make, inforce, binding laws and regulations; you have the power to make ME Present; to forgive or NOT forgive sins [through Me], and acess to heaven will only be through YOU and My Church." That dear friend is Christ message, from th time He was on earth to the present times and to the end of time. **

There’s a verse about Peter that I dwell on often in trying to balance my ego - ‘When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”’ - John 21:21 NIV. Is Peter showing concern for John, or worrying that he may have to suffer his burden alone, or just wanting to know what the future has in store? Whatever, ‘Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”’

The proper understanding here is exactly what I’m trying to get thouugh to you friend. God is in charge. Each of us must COMPLETELY OBEY what directives He has given. Christ is telling Peter… You do what I told you, use the authority I give to you, accomplish the task I set before you, and don’t worry about trying to understand my motives for that which I DO NOT permit you to understand.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[rocketrob]

“One of the reasons why I joined CAF, apart from all the nice people, was to try to work out something that troubles me. All of my Catholic friends in Spain have fallen away from the Church and from Christ with one exception…”

“So the Church sounds right to me if ‘Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are.’”

Seems like this thread has gotten off the original topic a bit, but I wanted to briefly respond to these two statements.

Regarding the second, Catholics are not taught how wrong other faith traditions are. Rather, they are presented the Full Faith that has been progressively revealed by God (the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) throughout creation and salvation history. Speaking as a convert from a protestant background, the more that the entirety of salvation history and the revelation of God’s entire Word (which is in fact Jesus Christ) is better understood, the more apparent it becomes that the Catholic Church possesses and defends the Fullness of Faith. A natural result of understanding the Full Faith is that it becomes apparent, especially to converts from other faith traditions, that those other traditions only possess part of the faith, and that errors arise as a result.

Regarding the first statement, the Catholic Faith involves and requires a true conversion of self, both physically and spiritually. Jesus Christ is the ultimate example on which to focus. Faith requires a death to self and the sacrificial love and elevation of others. This transformation must take place throughout all aspects of our life and being, and therefore, some of our most intimate and innate desires are affected. This is not easy to face or accomplish, and in fact can’t be done without putting God first, and relying completely on Him and His authority. We must let our will die so that we can live by pursuing His will. For many, it is simply much easier to turn away, or pursue and practice those portions of the Faith which seem easier. Scripture and history are full of examples of this happening.

Sincerely,
rocketrob

 

[inocente]

What’s missing here AND IN PROPER UNDERSTANDING is “IF YOU OBEY HIM!” It’s not a free-pass based simply and ONLY on faith alone.

Pat,

Who said sola fide? If I did, it’s not what I believe.

I was halfway through trying to answer your other points individually, but it always came down to the same answer – we’re very different.

Now the temperature here is hovering around 40 C (not sure what that is in dollars) and that is definitely affecting my comprehension skills. We are poles apart somewhere – it seems to be on apostolic succession rather than sola scriptura or sola fide. If we were sat in a bar then we would probably have a meeting of minds (or else sore heads) but posting messages to each other is just not going to cut the mustard, it’s too hard.

And yet there’s an interesting and valuable discussion buried here about various approaches to Christ. I’m going to ruminate on how best to tackle this. It seems like a thread is in order, but the wording of the OP escapes me.

Any ideas?

 

[inocente]

Thanks for that thoughtful post.

A natural result of understanding the Full Faith is that it becomes apparent, especially to converts from other faith traditions, that those other traditions only possess part of the faith, and that errors arise as a result.

You’ll understand if I take a rain-check on that for the moment, not wanting to risk following the path away from Christ of most of my Catholic friends here.

We must let our will die so that we can live by pursuing His will. For many, it is simply much easier to turn away, or pursue and practice those portions of the Faith which seem easier. Scripture and history are full of examples of this happening.

Now there’s another interesting topic. Not that long ago, Spain was one of the most Catholic countries in Europe. Is the Church powerless to stop this trend away from Christ across Europe (the world?) or can it do anything turn the tide?

 

[PJM]

=inocente;6941311]Pat,

Who said sola fide? If I did, it’s not what I believe.

I was halfway through trying to answer your other points individually, but it always came down to the same answer – we’re very different.

Now the temperature here is hovering around 40 C (not sure what that is in dollars) and that is definitely affecting my comprehension skills. We are poles apart somewhere – it seems to be on apostolic succession rather than sola scriptura or sola fide. If we were sat in a bar then we would probably have a meeting of minds (or else sore heads) but posting messages to each other is just not going to cut the mustard, it’s too hard.

And yet there’s an interesting and valuable discussion buried here about various approaches to Christ. I’m going to ruminate on how best to tackle this. It seems like a thread is in order, but the wording of the OP escapes me.

Any ideas?

I’m here if I can be of any help?

How about: “Why do Catholics and Protestants believe differnt things” or

“Why does the Bible mean One thing to Catholics and something else to non-Catholics?”

Love and prayers,

PM me if I can of any assistance?

Pat

 

[inocente]

I’m here if I can be of any help?

How about: “Why do Catholics and Protestants believe differnt things” or

“Why does the Bible mean One thing to Catholics and something else to non-Catholics?”

Love and prayers,

PM me if I can of any assistance?

Pat

Pat, I really liked the “Why does the Bible mean One thing to Catholics and something else to non-Catholics?” idea, but in looking around for duplicates found a similar long-running thread that’s going no where fast - How Do You Know Your Interpretation Is Correct?

My answer to the OP there would be the Lord decides, our ways are not His ways, we are all right in conscience. Can’t face posting it though. Looking through the thread, I realized that the adversarial form of online debate is wrong for this kind of topic.

Thanks for your help and see you around

Peace