Sola Scriptura?biblical?

[justasking4]

Quote= ja4 He was only speaking to His apostles and not to anyone else. This includes later popes and councils.

? = OneNow1. Where does it say it does not include the sucessors of the Apostles ?

Peace, OneNow1 :coffee

There were only so many in the room that nite and He is referencing those that knew Him personally. It had nothing to do with any successors.

 

[justasking4]

It seems that you have a lot to learn about Jewish tradition as well!

I can assure you that Jesus is not the Source and foundation of SS. On the contrary, He Himself is the Word made Flesh, and no written document can ever replace HIm.

Who is the source of the Scriptures? Whose word are they?

 

[guanophore]

Good point. He was only speaking to His apostles and not to anyone else. This includes later popes and councils.

You would like to believe this, since that would excuse rebellion against the authority that Jesus appointed for His Church.

The idea of “apostolic succession” has nothing to do with the verse you quote.

On the contrary, it is the central focus of the Apostolic Succession. Why was it, if Jesus did not intend it, that the Apostles chose successors for themselves? Why did they appoint bishops and authorize them with the powers they had been given?

i agree. That’s why there can never be harmony with churches that teach things the apostles never did. That’s why studying catholic doctrines is so important and compare them to what the apostles taught. In many cases they are not the same things.

Yes. Sola Scriptura is one of those doctrines that the Apostles never taught. On the contrary, the Gospel was passed from heart to heart, throughout the ages. Paul stated that his disciples were his “letter” who had the gospel written upon their hearts. This gospel from the Apostles has been passed from heart to heart for 2000 years.

 

[po18guy]

ja4, I pray that you are sincere in your questions. My suspicions tell me that you are not. If this is true, then I ask that all Christians, Angels, and Saints pray for you…In Christ’s name …Amen

Some suspect that he/she is actually a group of Protestant seminarians using the same username. It makes sense, since many of the same questions are asked over and over. It’s like trying to reason with several individuals.

 

[po18guy]

I agree with you in part. The only teachings that we have of Christ can only found in the NT though. To claim there is something beyond has never been shown.

Not in the written proof that you require before you will believe. Is your name Thomas by any chance?

Justwomdering

 

[onenow1]

There were only so many in the room that nite and He is referencing those that knew Him personally. It had nothing to do with any successors.

=OneNow1What is gratuitously asserted can be gratuitously denied

Question still stands ! Where does it say it does not include successors.

No offense but your answer defies logic.

Without successors

Peace, OneNow1

 

[guanophore]

Some suspect that he/she is actually a group of Protestant seminarians using the same username. It makes sense, since many of the same questions are asked over and over. It’s like trying to reason with several individuals.

I just can’t believe that. I attended a Protestant seminary for three years, and I just don’t want to believe that any Seminary would pander such ignorance, bigotry, and hostility. I realize that there are some bible schools that are very biased, but some of the people that have used this login can barely read and write, and have such severe cognitive impairments I can’t believe they would be able to get admitted to a seminary. I could be wrong.

What is clear is that all the persons who have used this login share a common set of anti-Catholic prejudice.

Some of them appear to have grown in knowledge, also,as there have been occasional admissions of not having heard of things before. There has also been some progress made on this issue of Sola Scriptura. It has been a common thread topic subscribed to by this login (cadre) and some research has been done. Most recently, it has been admitted by at least one person that the doctrine is not found in scripture, which I think is progress.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
I agree with you in part. The only teachings that we have of Christ can only found in the NT though. To claim there is something beyond has never been shown.

po18guy
Not in the written proof that you require before you will believe. Is your name Thomas by any chance?

Justwomdering

You can claim that there are other teachings of Christ outside of the NT but it cannot be shown what they are. If you believe there is without proof then you are putting your faith in specualtions.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

You can claim that there are other teachings of Christ outside of the NT but it cannot be shown what they are. If you believe there is without proof then you are putting your faith in specualtions.

You (one or more of you) have been shown such teachings, many of those with which you agree in your own faith tradition. Other than suffering from short-term memory loss, I don’t understand why you persist in saying “we don’t know what those Traditions are” when you hold in your hands the Bible, which is itself a product of those Traditions.

 

[justasking4]

You (one or more of you) have been shown such teachings, many of those with which you agree in your own faith tradition. Other than suffering from short-term memory loss, I don’t understand why you persist in saying “we don’t know what those Traditions are” when you hold in your hands the Bible, which is itself a product of those Traditions.

Are the Traditions Scripture? Are they the samethings?
If not, then they you need to do the following for Tradition:
1- examples of them offically from the church itself. I have read many who give examples but i’m not sure if these are truly examples of them that the Church would endorse.

2- how are disctinctions made between Tradition and tradition?
Who makes the decision about these things in the church?
What is the offical definition of a Sacred Tradition and tradition?

3- Origin of the Tradition.
4- An offical list of all the Traditions in the church. (i have asked repeatedly for this and it does not appear that one exist that is endorsed offically by the leaders in the church)

5- Is Sacred Tradition being formed today?

Its these kinds of questions and answers that would greatly help me understand what Tradition is and where it comes from.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Are the Traditions Scripture? Are they the samethings?

As I said above, Scripture is a product of Sacred Tradition.

If not, then they you need to do the following for Tradition:
1- examples of them offically from the church itself. I have read many who give examples but i’m not sure if these are truly examples of them that the Church would endorse.

You have been given examples before. Did you forget already?

2- how are disctinctions made between Tradition and tradition?
Who makes the decision about these things in the church?
What is the offical definition of a Sacred Tradition and tradition?

Sacred Tradition is that which comes to us from Christ and His Apostles. Little “t” tradition are those practices which have developed over time as good things to do in order to express our faith but are not required.

3- Origin of the Tradition.

Jesus Christ and His Apostles, upon whom He breathed and gave the Holy Spirit to guide them into ALL Truth.

4- An offical list of all the Traditions in the church. (i have asked repeatedly for this and it does not appear that one exist that is endorsed offically by the leaders in the church)

You’ve been repeatedly told that it’s called the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Way: Faith for Living Today is an excellent aid in understanding how to apply Sacred Tradition in our own lives.

5- Is Sacred Tradition being formed today?

Our understanding of it might be developed, as in the case of the Trinity, but we believe (and your faith tradition affirms) that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. What was given by Christ to the Apostles is the whole of Sacred Tradition.

Its these kinds of questions and answers that would greatly help me understand what Tradition is and where it comes from.

And these questions have been answered repeatedly, which is why I have to suspect that you suffer from short-term memory loss, or however many there are of you who sign on under the username “justasking4” don’t talk to one another.

 

[Kay_Cee]

You can claim that there are other teachings of Christ outside of the NT but it cannot be shown what they are. If you believe there is without proof then you are putting your faith in specualtions.

You can claim that scripture is the sole rule of faith but it cannot be shown at all. If you believe it is without proof, then you are putting your faith in speculations.

As a matter of fact, you have already stated that you place your faith in speculations. Back in the “Protestants Do Not Really Believe in Sola Scriptura” thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=265256

I asked you exactly what you based your belief that scripture is the sole rule of faith upon. You replied:

“My belief comes from a lot of study and understanding the nature of the Scriptures.” and “Not just this but what others have also concluded.”

You admitted, “There is no ‘revelation’ from God on this and a number of other things we believe.” (post 835)

So you yourself admit you base some of your beliefs upon your own personal study and the conclusions of others, not upon what God has revealed in scripture.

How you can believe scripture is the sole rule of faith after admitting this is beyond me.

 

[po18guy]

You can claim that there are other teachings of Christ outside of the NT but it cannot be shown what they are. If you believe there is without proof then you are putting your faith in specualtions.

Um, Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, right? Can truth be taught through the Holy Spirit (the Advocate, Paraclete)?

Christ sent forth Apostles, not books. You can believe the book in your own way, but we prefer to believe it in the proper way, as Paul intended. Tradition and scripture for a complete and balanced teaching.

 

[po18guy]

I just can’t believe that. I attended a Protestant seminary for three years, and I just don’t want to believe that any Seminary would pander such ignorance, bigotry, and hostility. I realize that there are some bible schools that are very biased, but some of the people that have used this login can barely read and write, and have such severe cognitive impairments I can’t believe they would be able to get admitted to a seminary. I could be wrong.

What is clear is that all the persons who have used this login share a common set of anti-Catholic prejudice.

Some of them appear to have grown in knowledge, also,as there have been occasional admissions of not having heard of things before. There has also been some progress made on this issue of Sola Scriptura. It has been a common thread topic subscribed to by this login (cadre) and some research has been done. Most recently, it has been admitted by at least one person that the doctrine is not found in scripture, which I think is progress.

Since we cannot know the truth about this user, I am just speculating. It’s clearly several individuals. All of them show some promise, but are stuck in a man-made tradition.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Since we cannot know the truth about this user, I am just speculating. It’s clearly several individuals. All of them show some promise, but are stuck in a man-made tradition.

The speculation has yet to be denied. That is telling…

 

[po18guy]

The speculation has yet to be denied. That is telling…

We are still waiting for the bible quote that “proves” sola anything…

 

[justasking4]

The speculation has yet to be denied. That is telling…

:egyptian: :stretcher:

 

[guanophore]

You can claim that there are other teachings of Christ outside of the NT but it cannot be shown what they are.

Oh, they are shown every day! They are not shown to you because you have refused to believe they exist. Does it not make sense to you that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to receive something when you refuse to accept it’s existence?

If you believe there is without proof then you are putting your faith in specualtions.

Such a statement reflects the heart of a person who has little inclination or ability to have faith, perhaps a very weak faith. It elevates the ability of the carnal mind (reason) to the revelation of God, since one believes one must understand by way of that finite fallen mind in order to apprehend truth. On the contrary, the whole of Christianity is based upon mysteries that far exceed human understanding.

Eph 5:32
“This is a great mystery…”

1 Tim 3:9
“…they must hold fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.”

It is not about “proof”, but about faith in the mysteries.

1 Tim 3:16
“Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great…”

A mystery, by definition, transcends the ability of the mind to understand, and is not available to “proof”.

You are missing out on Jesus blessing, ja4.

John 20:29
29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”

You are hung up on “proofs” for mysteries that you will never find, and refuse to come to believe in faith.

Rom 8:24-25
" For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."

We hope in what we cannot see, and we apprehend it by faith, not “proof”. You are missing out on the gospel mystery!

 

[cfrancis]

You can claim that there are other teachings of Christ outside of the NT but it cannot be shown what they are. If you believe there is without proof then you are putting your faith in specualtions.

The canon of Scripture and Sunday worship are two examples.
I can anticipate part of your reply: “Sunday worship is in the Bible.”
Agreed - but the decision to move the obligation for worship from Saturday to Sunday is not. Who made that decision?

Same with the replacement of Judas: yes, the event is recorded in Scripture, but it is presented as de facto without the authoritative decree to do so being presented.

Monogamy is another example. Nowhere in the NT is Christian monogamy decreed.

 

[guanophore]

Are the Traditions Scripture? Are they the samethings?

In the sense that they are both strands of the one Divine Deposit of faith, they are similar.

If not, then they you need to do the following for Tradition:

No. At least take responsibility for yourself, and don’t shuffle your problems off on others. We do not “need to do the following”. We have received the Sacred Traditions from the Apostles, that is why we don’t “need” these things. We accept them by faith. If you need, them, which apparently you do, then at least take some ownership of your needs.

1- examples of them offically from the church itself. I have read many who give examples but i’m not sure if these are truly examples of them that the Church would endorse.

And what would give you such surety? I don’t think it is possible. You distrust the Catholic Church because you have been taught that she was inflitrated by false teachers, so hw could you have “surety” about anything she teaches? This is why it is so peculiar that you accept the vast majority of the Sacred Tradition, but don’t recognize it for what it is.

You asked for an official Church document on the Immaculate conception and it’s relation to Sacred Tradition the other day on another thread. I linked you to an infallible teaching of the Church on the Vatican website. Now, a few days later, you say you have read many examples but “I am not sure”. This has to do with you, and not the available evidence.

2- how are disctinctions made between Tradition and tradition?

We don’t make them. We don’t need to make them. We understand that they are both equal, and come from the same Source. It is you who seems to have a need to separate them.

Who makes the decision about these things in the church?

The teaching authority appointed by Jesus that you have rejected.

What is the offical definition of a Sacred Tradition and tradition?

Just do a search on justasking4 and tradition, and you can easily read the answer to this question on the many other posts made with this username which have answered this same question dozens of times from dozens of well meaning CAF members, all of whom you have ignored.

It is exactly this phenomenon tha leaves some of us thinking that there is a group that does not read the posts made by the others, or else a person with a grievious learning disability.

3- Origin of the Tradition.

All of the Sacred Traditions come from Jesus, through the Apostles. But, you have been told this repeatedly too, with no effect, apparently.

4- An offical list of all the Traditions in the church. (i have asked repeatedly for this and it does not appear that one exist that is endorsed offically by the leaders in the church)

No, no such list exists. The Sacred Tradition is a way of life:

“Now we command you, beloved, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not** according to the tradition that they received from us**. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us…” 2 Thess 3:6-7

It is a world view, in the NT called The Way, a manner of living and being in the word that imitates the life of Jesus and the Apostles. Through this perspective, we interpret the scripture that was produced by that Sacred Tradition.

5- Is Sacred Tradition being formed today?

You have been given this answer repeatedly also, but for the sake of those who are really sincerely interested in this, and may be reading the thread, I will answer it again.

The public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. From the time that God began to reveal to mankind until that time, the deposit of faith has been accumulating. This faith was once for all given to the saints:

Jude 3-4
“I find it necessary to write and appeal to you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.”

It is this faith, entrused to the saints, which is called the Divine Deposit. There are two strands, the faith that was delivered (Sacred Tradition) and the Writings that reflect that faith (Scripture).

Since it was once for all entrusted, nothing is added.

Its these kinds of questions and answers that would greatly help me understand what Tradition is and where it comes from.

I have learned that this is not a true statement, since these questions have been asked by persons on this username and answered faithfully here for the last two years by the thousands, and you have still rejected what has been shown to you. May God have mercy on all of the souls affected by this.