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cfrancis
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Would the laying on of hands for ordination be one?
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Pixie_Dust
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He rejected the traditions of men, he didn’t reject all traditions or he would have never mentioned the Seat of Moses.
Maybe because the Sacred Traditions preceded the written Scriptures? Maybe because the NT is a product of Catholic Tradition?
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cfrancis
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Interesting point. It is a Tradition that the Bible is to contain the books it does; that is, the canon of Scripture isn’t written in Scripture.
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JeanneFrancoise
Guest
No my friend, it is Scripture that came from the Oral Tradition.
We Catholics also reject traditions. Jesus also rejected traditions but told us to follow Tradition. There is a difference you know.
I came across a post earlier while I was reading through this thread which I don’t know if you read so I am copying it here for you. I notice that it was posted by someone from my country:
Look at a garden. Without seeing the gardener you KNOW that he planted seeds, nourished the soil, irrigated, weeded, and produced healthy shrubs and blooming flowers!
You see the fruit and you know what went into the creation of the beautiful garden!
Twelve humble, semi-literate fishermen, inspired by the Holy Spirit and possessed with the witness of our Lord Jesus went out into the world and spread the gospel (orally). Through the guidance of the HS they laid the foundation of a Church which is over 2000 years old today.
Now “Thomas” do you need more proof?
**
You should digest this. It might help you to understand.
Its nice to note that you show an interest in what we Catholics believe - try to be less critical because who knows, one day it might to ping in your head!:newidea: The light will come on and you WILL understand! That would be great!
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justasking4
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Do you have a couple of examples of these traditions catholics reject?
What is the difference?
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Look at a garden. Without seeing the gardener you KNOW that he planted seeds, nourished the soil, irrigated, weeded, and produced healthy shrubs and blooming flowers!
You see the fruit and you know what went into the creation of the beautiful garden!
Twelve humble, semi-literate fishermen, inspired by the Holy Spirit and possessed with the witness of our Lord Jesus went out into the world and spread the gospel (orally). Through the guidance of the HS they laid the foundation of a Church which is over 2000 years old today.
Now “Thomas” do you need more proof?
**
You should digest this. It might help you to understand.**
Understand what? i know the Roman Catholic church claims to be 2000 years old but that cannot be really supported by history.
Its nice to note that you show an interest in what we Catholics believe - try to be less critical because who knows, one day it might to ping in your head!:newidea: The light will come on and you WILL understand! That would be great!
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justasking4
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I think so. The only traditions we would know of Paul would have to be found in his letters. Correct?
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justasking4
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Did the NT church ever use the Seat of Moses as a basis for authority?
How are you defining Sacred Tradition and Tradition?
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Pixie_Dust
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Jesus acknowledged the place of authority that the Pharisees in the Seat of Moses held, and told people to “do what they say, not what they do.” In other words, be obedient to their authority. But check your OT, that phrase isn’t there. It’s a Jewish oral tradition.
Same way I always have since we began interacting. That which the Apostles handed down to us, which includes, but is not limited to, the New Testament.
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JeanneFrancoise
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I am going to tell you again what these things are but you will find a lot of what I say above in other posts but I do understand that Protestants have to hear or read things more than once!Somewhat true. However Oral Traditions are not of much help to us now since all we have are the written word.
Do you have a couple of examples of these traditions catholics reject?
What is the difference?
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Understand what? i know the Roman Catholic church claims to be 2000 years old but that cannot be really supported by history.
The tradition of men referred to by Jesus in Mat 15:3 were human customs as were those mentioned by Paul in Col2:8. In Mat 15:6-9 Jesus was condemning the Pharisees who were making pretended dedication of their goods to the temple so that they could avoid using them to support their aged parents. By doing this they dodged the commandment to honour your Father and Mother. (Ex 20:12). Elsewhere Jesus instructed us to abide by Sacred Traditions: those that are not contrary to God’s commandments. “Do and observe what they (the Pharisees, the leaders occupying the chair of Moses) tell you, but do not imitate their hypocritical actions” Mat 23:2-3) of Sacred Tradition Paul also in 2Thes 3:6 tells us “Live according to the Tradition we have passed on”. Also 1Cor 11:2 “You have done well maintaining the Traditions just as I have passed them on to you.“ The Jews also believed in their Sacred Tradition.
Sacred Tradition comes from many things: the Church’s creed such as the Apostles Creed, the records of the Church’s worship and liturgical practices, the writing of scholars and Church leaders, the decrees of Popes and Councils, the prayers of the Church’s people and so on. The Didache or teachings of the Apostles (early 2nd Century) is a rich source of Sacred Tradition as are the writings of St Justin Martyr (100-165 AD), who gives a vivid description of how the Mass was celebrated in his day. The bible itself was originally oral tradition eventually committed to writing and placed in the Canon of Scripture by the Church only towards the end of the 4th Century.
St Jerome (342-420 AD) “Apart from scripture many other observances of the Church are due to Tradition.” Nowhere did Jesus give instructions for the Truth to be written down. From the above it is also clear that Sacred Tradition has nothing to do with human tradition or customs.
All these things have been discussed exhaustively before. Please, try to take in what has been said over and over and over again.:bowdown2: :bowdown: :banghead:
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cfrancis
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No. not all. Paul tells us he laid hands on Timothy - but he writes it as if it is an established and accepted practice; yet, there is nothing in Scripture that tells us this is part of the ordination.
For your statement to be true, I’d expect to see Paul lay out not only the whole of the rite, but from whence it came.
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JeanneFrancoise
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FOR jUSTASKING4
I am repeating something I said in my other post just in case your eyes missed it. Since you keep asking the same questions I decided to anticipate this and answer AGAIN.
What is Sacred Tradition (note the capital T)
Sacred Tradition comes from many things: the Church’s creed such as the Apostles Creed, the records of the Church’s worship and liturgical practices, the writing of scholars and Church leaders, the decrees of Popes and Councils, the prayers of the Church’s people and so on. The Didache or teachings of the Apostles (early 2nd Century) is a rich source of Sacred Tradition as are the writings of St Justin Martyr (100-165 AD), who gives a vivid description of how the Mass was celebrated in his day. The bible itself was originally oral tradition eventually committed to writing and placed in the Canon of Scripture by the Church only towards the end of the 4th Century.
I am repeating something I said in my other post just in case your eyes missed it. Since you keep asking the same questions I decided to anticipate this and answer AGAIN.
What is Sacred Tradition (note the capital T)
Sacred Tradition comes from many things: the Church’s creed such as the Apostles Creed, the records of the Church’s worship and liturgical practices, the writing of scholars and Church leaders, the decrees of Popes and Councils, the prayers of the Church’s people and so on. The Didache or teachings of the Apostles (early 2nd Century) is a rich source of Sacred Tradition as are the writings of St Justin Martyr (100-165 AD), who gives a vivid description of how the Mass was celebrated in his day. The bible itself was originally oral tradition eventually committed to writing and placed in the Canon of Scripture by the Church only towards the end of the 4th Century.
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justasking4
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Cinette
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What specifically were the Traditions that Paul was referring to?
The traditions referred to by Paul are ALL the truths of Christianity handed on to us which is the word of God entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. This is what we Catholics call the “deposit of Faith”., Much of these truths were committed to writing and are contained in the bible as canonized by the Catholic Church. A question – if you have such doubts about the Catholic Church how can you accept the bible as authentic which was put together and handed on to us by the CC.??
“Tertullian (160-225 AD): “For wherever both the true Christian rule and faith shall be shown, there will be the true scriptures and the explanations of all the true Christian Traditions.”
Are you saying that the church has officially declared the writing of scholars and Church leaders, the decrees of Popes and Councils, the prayers of the Church’s people as Sacred Tradition?
Are these Sacred Traditions considered inspired-inerrant?
YES! YES! YES!
Please go back on this thread and read the posts - there have been many excellent responses. Really read them and digest them before you repeat the same questions.
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Sailka
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Did the NT church ever use the Seat of Moses as a basis for authority?
The OT also has verses about the authority of the priest: Deuteronomy 17: 8-11.
Our Lord placed Authority on earth not in the Bible, the New testament of which was being writen, but in the Apostles he chose, and the Church He established on them:
Mathew 23:18-20; Mathew 6:18-1; After Our Lord resurrected from the dead: John 20: 21-23 and many more NT.
Vivat Jesus
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justasking4
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justasking4;4241913:
more NT.
Vivat Jesus
So you agree that the NT church never appeals to the Seat of Moses as a basis of authority?
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Sailka
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Sailka;4252475:
Never heard that one. New Idea?
Vivat Jesus. Tony
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guanophore
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No. Jesus transferred the teaching authority to His Apostles. They now occupy the “seat of Moses”. The Apostles passed this authority on to their successors, the bishops. The teaching authority is held to this day by the Magesterium - those that Jesus appointed as the teaching authority of the Church.
The Jews lost their authority, which is why, when they erroneously identified a canon that deliberately left out books supporting the teaching of Jesus, their canon was not recognized as proper.
Protestants, following in the footsteps of those who rejected Christ, adopted this truncated canon and use it to this day.
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Gara3987
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The word is not there though the concept is there. Just as the concept of Purgatory is there also.
“And the day following Judas [Machabeus] came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: So that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought Him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Machabees 12:39-46) It means “cleansing” (or “purging”).
“If any one abide not in Me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth.” (John 15:6)Getting out of purgatory:
“Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not come out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.” (Matthew 5:26)
Sola Scriptura means Scripture alone. The Catholic Faith is based upon Scripture and Traditions. What most fail to realize is that Scriptures are a tradition. The Book of Genesis was written by Moses 4200 Anno Mundi, before then there were no Scriptures.
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We know that the Scriptures are hard to understand: *“**As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.”* [II Peter III, XVI], and that private interpretation will lead to disaster (2 Peter 1, 20). If Scriptures are clear to understand, why did Martin Luther and his imitators make new catechisms of Christian doctrine? Why do they fill the libraries with innumerable books of interpretations, explanations and commentaries? Above all, why have they any churches, where the Scriptures are explained, if the Scriptures are sufficient? And if there should be a church, why so many churches, of so many denominations, in every city and in every town? If there is a clear statement that in the Scriptures which all Christians should endeavor to put into execution, it is certainly the desire which Christ expressed in His prayer to the Eternal Father on the eve of His Passion and Death, “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me” (John 17, 21). What else do such words mean than that all Christ's followers should first of all have the same faith?—“One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Eph. 4, 5).“While they argue from the Scriptures, they make poor exhibition of the Scriptures… because truth cannot be found by those who do not know Tradition, for not through writing, but by the living voice, Tradition was delivered.” Saint Irenæus (born between 135 – 140 Anno Domini., Smyrna / died 202 Anno Domini., Lyons., disciple of Saint Polycarp)
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Sailka
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greatest documented answers to the wrong questioner
Have done same. Great questions and answers here!Quitting my addiction to this great Web, before I fall asleep at 3:30 ammmm…
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Sailka
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Jesus didn’t/doesn’t need authority. He Is The authority: God. He was only citing Jewish teaching, in ‘It is written’. Catholic Church has been One since Our Lord founded it 2,000 years ago, except for a few “New Ideas” like arians, etc, who did’nt survive. Of Course the Reformation 500 years ago led to 30% of all Christias now having left, into tens of thousands of sects. But we are all Christians basically…
Tony
:coffeeread: Tony
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