po18guy
Well-known member
This pertains to the office held by Peter, and to the authority of the Church that he leads. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church in Matthew 16:18. We believe Him.
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guanophore
Guest
All the infallible decrees have their origin in the Holy Spirit.
All of them are founded upon what Jesus said in Jn.16.
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reccanboy
Guest
He will guide you into all truth = Whenever we define a dogma, it’s infallible?
How can you torture the text to have it mean that? Does it not mean that the Holy Spirit would reveal revelation to the Apostles?
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guanophore
Guest
Not “we” but those to whom the promise is given.
The New Testament was written by, for, and about CAtholics. There is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic Teaching. If it seems that way to you, then you don’t understand one, the other, or both.
Yes. And when they Apostles passed on their authority to their successors, the bishops, the promise went also.
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Sailka
Guest
Not “we” but those to whom the promise is given.
The New Testament was written by, for, and about CAtholics. There is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic Teaching. If it seems that way to you, then you don’t understand one, the other, or both.
Yes. And when they Apostles passed on their authority to their successors, the bishops, the promise went also.
Code:
A couple of technical corrections:
The New Testament was written by God, through the Holy Spirit, by the Apostles and key Disciples chosen by Our Lord, as we believe all Catholic Clergy are.And the New Testament was not written for Catholics, but for the entire world.
Vivat Jesus. :yup: Tony
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Sailka
Guest
Most of the Marian doctrines were known to earliest Church Leaders, the Apostles and leading disciples from Apostolic and Very earliest Church times. No knowledgeable person then thought that Mary was buried anywhere, because she Had no gravesite, and it was known she had no other children. One of the Apostles built a Home for her near Ephesus Turkey that is a world famous Site that is loved by Muslims as much as Chritians.
And the 3 ‘persons’ of the Trinity are mentioned, ‘named’ in the New Testament, and were
thus known in Apostolic times. St Paul Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Vivat Jesus
:aok: Tony
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GailMac
Guest
Dear Recanboy - you ask this:“Where did Jesus say that the Church is infallible, in that when the Church proclaims a dogma, it is infallible?”
God said in the Bible somewhere “…you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it…”
Now, if you think of errors as something from the netherworld that might mislead the flock in His midst, and when the errors are mulitplied to the point that the Church needs to put a stop to the problems those errors cause in the midst of His flock, the Church speaks and puts an end to the arguements and errors that are causing problems in the flock. Everyone listens because they hear His voice, the voice of the Sheperd in the midst of His flock speaking through the Church.
But I suppose you could live without hearing His voice speaking through the Church, but I wouldn’t recommend it.
If infalibilty didn’t exist, how could we hear His voice and know what to do? It would be as if Moses never came back down from Mt. Sinai and everyone had their own golden calf forever!
Peace,
Gail
God said in the Bible somewhere “…you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it…”
Now, if you think of errors as something from the netherworld that might mislead the flock in His midst, and when the errors are mulitplied to the point that the Church needs to put a stop to the problems those errors cause in the midst of His flock, the Church speaks and puts an end to the arguements and errors that are causing problems in the flock. Everyone listens because they hear His voice, the voice of the Sheperd in the midst of His flock speaking through the Church.
But I suppose you could live without hearing His voice speaking through the Church, but I wouldn’t recommend it.
If infalibilty didn’t exist, how could we hear His voice and know what to do? It would be as if Moses never came back down from Mt. Sinai and everyone had their own golden calf forever!
Peace,
Gail
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onenow1
Guest
By the CC who was given the authority by Jesus. You know the drll Peter Rock, guided by the Holy Spirit.
Peace, onenow1
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onenow1
Guest
=onenow1, With so many different beliefs, there has to be one truthful inerrant authority, which exists in the CC.
Peace, onenow1
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Sailka
Guest
The Next verse by Our Lord is What You bind on earth is bound in heaven; what You loose on Earth is Loosed in Heaven Our Lord gave infallibility on Dogma to the Pope (Peter) and the Apostles of The Church He was establishing Then. The verses are Mathew 16:18 and 19.
The Pope and the Magesterium (The Council of Thousands of Bishops) Decide what is Dogma From That authorization by the Lord himself, on anything inherently moral/spiritual. Few things become Dogma, but many are followed as if they were: Tradition. Only "Papal Bulls’ are Inherent required Dogma, and decided and Signed as such by the Pope. Are not many Actual Infalllible Papal Bulls.
. Vivat Jesus. Tony
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MDK
Guest
No, it’s not, and good that I didn’t. Some seek to denigrate and use asking in an attacking manner. Some ask in sincerity because they want to know. I hope you can use good judgment to determine what people say, and respond appropriately.Not good to call those who question Why we believe things ‘attackers’. They are questioners, who we are glad to answer. And All of us learn much in the wonderful process.
Vivat Jesus.
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, I agree, but Jesus intended for His Gospel to be brought to the world through the Church, and thought the Gospel (written and otherwise) is for the whole world, is was not meant to be separated from teh authority appointed by Him to guide it’s growth, feed the sheep, and care for the lambs.
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MDK
Guest
All believers are meant to be in God’s Church, the Catholic Church. The NT was indeed written by Catholics for Catholics, that is by members of His Church for members of His Church.
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Cinette
Guest
I just returned from a week’s holiday at the coast and it rained just about every day and I suffered terrible lower back pains. Fortunately, I took an amazing book with me which I want to recommend to you and to everybody else who hasn’t read it because it will help you to understand Christianity better.
The book is called…wait for it…
FOUR WITNESSES - The Early Church in her own words.
Read it and you will surely be amazed.
:yup: 
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Kay_Cee
Guest
That is not true. You have admitted as much.
You said, “My belief comes from a lot of study and understanding the nature of the Scriptures.” and “Not just this but what others have also concluded.”
You admitted, “There is no ‘revelation’ from God on this and a number of other things we believe.”
So your belief that scripture is the sole rule of faith (plus, you admit, a “number of other things we believe”) is not based on a revelation from God. It is based upon yourself and your own personal conclusions.
If there is just one undeniable fact that proves scripture is the sole rule of faith, you have yet to mention it. You said your belief about this is based on facts (plural). Well, let’s see these facts.
And please note: I want facts that prove scripture is the ***sole ***rule of faith, not facts that prove scripture is a rule of faith.
po18guy
Well-known member
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guanophore
Guest
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PJM
Guest
Defense of the RCC stands on three “legs.”
I’m no bible expert, but it is clear that the entire New Testament was written to a specific audience, Jews only, Gentiles only, or both, but alway’s with a desire to teach only “a part of the faith, that needed explaination or clairification, or correction.”
Also, a great deal was written simply recounting the authors life experiences with Christ.
None of the N.T. was knowingly written for “every generation”, for all time. That is one of the most wonderous miracles of God.
Certaintly, the Catholic authors entended to teach “the faith,” but it was never there intent in the Gospels and other letters to teach the entire faith, in part, because it was still in developement stages.
Church Father chose the Canon of the bible, with the goal of teaching as much as possible from these writtings, but too understood, that a lot of filling in was to be done later.
So just what is Tradition, and where did it come from?
Well, it came from Jewish Historical Tradition. Keep in mind that the entireity of the O.T. came from Jewish Oral Tradition, because of the education level of the masses, the lack of writting supplies, and the highly transent nature of the nomatic peoples.
This was one of the reasons Christ used so many parables. Not to confuse, but because the people were comfortable with “story telling.”
And just what are the grounds for Tradition? “Sacred Tradition” is simply the historically proveable beliefs of the RC Church.
First their is Sacred Tradition, followed by a recognized “doctrine” on the topic, which may result in an offical defination and prolamation, which we call “CC Dogma.” These are binding on all RCC.
Hope this is of some help:shrug:
God Bless,
Pat Miron
Marian Catechesit
- Holy Scripture, noting that the entire New Testament was written by Catholics.
- Our (proper) understanding of Tradition.
- Common sense. (One of the reasons God gave us an intellect.)
I’m no bible expert, but it is clear that the entire New Testament was written to a specific audience, Jews only, Gentiles only, or both, but alway’s with a desire to teach only “a part of the faith, that needed explaination or clairification, or correction.”
Also, a great deal was written simply recounting the authors life experiences with Christ.
None of the N.T. was knowingly written for “every generation”, for all time. That is one of the most wonderous miracles of God.
Certaintly, the Catholic authors entended to teach “the faith,” but it was never there intent in the Gospels and other letters to teach the entire faith, in part, because it was still in developement stages.
Church Father chose the Canon of the bible, with the goal of teaching as much as possible from these writtings, but too understood, that a lot of filling in was to be done later.
So just what is Tradition, and where did it come from?
Well, it came from Jewish Historical Tradition. Keep in mind that the entireity of the O.T. came from Jewish Oral Tradition, because of the education level of the masses, the lack of writting supplies, and the highly transent nature of the nomatic peoples.
This was one of the reasons Christ used so many parables. Not to confuse, but because the people were comfortable with “story telling.”
And just what are the grounds for Tradition? “Sacred Tradition” is simply the historically proveable beliefs of the RC Church.
First their is Sacred Tradition, followed by a recognized “doctrine” on the topic, which may result in an offical defination and prolamation, which we call “CC Dogma.” These are binding on all RCC.
Hope this is of some help:shrug:
God Bless,
Pat Miron
Marian Catechesit
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Sailka
Guest
shaw:Depends on whether your Glass is half empty. Mine is Very Full, and one wins friends and converts by befriending them.
:clapping:Hammer away at the Truths :hammering: of our beautiful Lord’s Faith, in friendly banter, :yyeess: and joy of Discovering Truth results, opening door to Heaven, mutually. :bible1:
:heaven: .Vivat Jesus. Tony
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