Sola Scriptura?biblical?

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"justasking4:
For example if any pope or church were to teach that a man can be saved without explicit belief in Christ to be saved that pope or church would be wrong and teaching falsely.
One of the clearest is found in Acts 4:12:
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”👍
I think you just don’t understand the Church teaching. Catholicism teaches that there is no salvation outside of Christ, and that He manifests Himself to the world through His Body, the Church. All who are “in Christ” are members of His Body.

Scripture does not say what you have stated above about “explicit belief”. In fact, scripture says the opposite. Scripture testifies that there are some people who obey God, even though they don’t know Him.
Do you know what the context is for this verse? 🤷
The context is a discussion about salvation in Romans. God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. He can save them even if they don’t know who He is!
 
guanophore;4290939]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
For example if any pope or church were to teach that a man can be saved without explicit belief in Christ to be saved that pope or church would be wrong and teaching falsely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
One of the clearest is found in Acts 4:12:
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
guanophore
I think you just don’t understand the Church teaching. Catholicism teaches that there is no salvation outside of Christ, and that He manifests Himself to the world through His Body, the Church. All who are “in Christ” are members of His Body.
Scripture does not say what you have stated above about “explicit belief”. In fact, scripture says the opposite. Scripture testifies that there are some people who obey God, even though they don’t know Him.
Where does Jesus or His apostles teach that you do not have to have explicit belief in Him?
 
Must every person know and acknowledge this to enter heaven?
It will become clear to them at some point. It may not be observable by us in this lifetime.
Must a person belong to the Catholic church to enter heaven?
Yes. There is only One Body, One Faith, One Church.All who are “in Christ” are members of His One Body, whether they know it, or not.
Whose traditions is Paul referring to?

What were these traditions he was referring to?
The Teaching of the Apostles. 👍

It is manner of living in the world, a mind set, a perspective, in the book of Acts called “The Way.”
Where does Jesus or His apostles teach that you do not have to have explicit belief in Him?
A very good question which has no relation to the topic here. You will find the answer in the Catechism. 👍
 
guanophore;4290983]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Must every person know and acknowledge this to enter heaven?

guanophore
It will become clear to them at some point. It may not be observable by us in this lifetime.
If its not clear would they be baptized nonetheless?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Must a person belong to the Catholic church to enter heaven?
guanophore
Yes. There is only One Body, One Faith, One Church.All who are “in Christ” are members of His One Body, whether they know it, or not.
Do you have chapter and verse for this?
 
I was thinking of Sacred Tradition and it occurred to me that the Church is an example of Sacred Tradition because she evolved from Sacred Tradition. It is the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles which were passed down and evolved into the Church as it is today.

Is that not so?🙂
 
Is this not a fact that your church also would agree with? If not, is there something else in the church that is also inspired-inerrant?

Reply:

Yes, actually there is. The Supreme Pontiff of the RCC when he speaks on matters of "faith and morals, from the "chair of Peter, with a message entended for the entire world. Yes, I do mean for everyone.

Should you like to know more just ask.

I’m not sure you really want to know:confused:

God bless my friend,
PJM m.c.
 
justasking4;4286361:
Is this not a fact that your church also would agree with? If not, is there something else in the church that is also inspired-inerrant?

Reply:

Yes, actually there is. The Supreme Pontiff of the RCC when he speaks on matters of "faith and morals, from the "chair of Peter, with a message entended for the entire world. Yes, I do mean for everyone.

Should you like to know more just ask.

I’m not sure you really want to know:confused:
God bless my friend,
PJM m.c.
Anything that is elevated to the same level as the Scriptures needs to be known and studied if this is indeed the case. So if you have more then lets study it and see if it passes the test of truly being inspired-inerrant.

Is the proclaimation of Mary’s immaculate conception and assumption considered inerrant and inspired?
 
PJM;4291975:
Anything that is elevated to the same level as the Scriptures needs to be known and studied if this is indeed the case. So if you have more then lets study it and see if it passes the test of truly being inspired-inerrant.

Is the proclaimation of Mary’s immaculate conception and assumption considered inerrant and inspired?
Yes, as is the canon of the New Testament and the doctrine of the Trinity.
 
PJM;4291975:
Anything that is elevated to the same level as the Scriptures needs to be known and studied if this is indeed the case. So if you have more then lets study it and see if it passes the test of truly being inspired-inerrant.

Is the proclaimation of Mary’s immaculate conception and assumption considered inerrant and inspired?
YES!

Reply:

Catholic Answer on Primacy of Peter

The question before us is “can there be ‘an infallible proclamation’ out side of the bible?"

The short answer is yes.

The RCC teaches and has always taught (and has almost always had desenters, even in the present age), and understood and put into practice that the Supreme Pontiff, whether alone or in “communion with the Magistrium” (the body of bishops world wide that are supporting the Pontiff,) may and can make an official pronouncement from the “chair of Peter” on matters of Faith and or Morals (only), intended for world wide application, and if all above conditions are met, it is understood to be an “infallible pronouncement.”

As a secondary note: All teachings of the Holy Father, relating to the RCC, are to be given assent and acceptance of faith, by all Catholics. In other words we are to accept and live his teachings.

Why is this? Why does the Pope have the right, indeed the mandate to speak to Gods children, on behalf of God Himself?

Because I am limited to the number of words I am permited to use, I will in this post only reference one bible passage, perhaps at a later time, I will post additional verses supporting the Primacy of Peter?

Matt. 16:013-19
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build* my* church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19* I* will give *you *the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

We have to establish two platforms for our discussion.

First: we accept the fact that word’s have specific, “common” meeting to those giving utterance and to those being spoken to.

Second: We acknowledge that both those giving utterance, and those who have done the transcribing, are inspired by The Holy Spirit, (Jesus exempted because He too is God), to use specific words, phrases and locations. In other words, mere coincidence has no place in our discussion. We accept the facts that Jesus knew what He was doing, and that as God, He was incapable of lying.

Point One: Why did Jesus select the area of Caesarea Philippi, to make this enormously important appointment?

Reply: Caesarea Philippi is located in the northern part of Judea. The above quoted passage took place on a large hill, and was the location of a very large, and locally famous, Pagan Temple. As a “safeguard” the temple was build behind a huge protective ROCK.

Point Two: In O.T. biblical days it was common for cities to be walled and fortified. Further, they really did have a main gate, and there was a Key to the City, that really locked and unlocked the main gate.

Point Three: In the quoted bible passage: “I,” “you,” “my,” and “church” are all singular for very specific reasons. “Church” for example clearly, and indisputably, shows God’s intent to start and Shepherd only “one church.”

Point Four: In every walled city there was a “King” which is the role Jesus assumes in this story. “Hail King of the Jews!”

Point Five: As one might expect, actually running the city was a whole lot like real work, so it was delegated to another, usually called the “Prime Minister.” So we will use that term for the one who actually ran the city, day in, and day out. The P.M. answered ONLY to “the King.” What the PM ordered done, was done, and what the PM forbid, was legally forbidden, and violators were punished by the PM.

Point Six: The terms,** “To Bind and or To Loose” **were legal and binding at law, Rabbinical Terms, known and accepted by all those Jesus was speaking too as authority to Govern.

Point Seven: Just as Jesus is the King in this story, Simon, Now “Peter” (Greek for “rock,”) is the new Prime Minister! As such he in given total and complete autonomous rule and daily governance of the New Church that Jesus has just created. “On this “rock” meaning the very person of Peter himself, “I” will build “my” church. Again Words Mean Something!

Point Eight: “I will give you” Peter the Key to the Kingdom of Heaven. PERIOD! This is God telling us this fact.

Point Nine: The power to govern is immediate, total, complete, unlimited and binding on all. Amen!

Point Ten: God knew what He was doing, Jesus knew what He was setting up, Peter and the Apostles understood exactly what was meant and accepted and lived in obedience, what God had ordained. We, my friend are to do no less. 'The gates of Hell shall not prevail," does not mean that sin does not exist within the RCC, rather it means that,“sin will not prevail,” and that on matters of “faith and Morals” God will not permit to teach in error.
Amen!👍

God’s continued Blessings,

PJM m
 
Where does Jesus or His apostles teach that you do not have to have explicit belief in Him?
Reply:

Opps:blush: No, I repeat, No, none, zip, zerro informed, practcing Roman Catholic could in truth, make such an idiotic statement.:o

The RCC believes and teaches that All Salvation originates in Christ Jesus, and that it is the Merits of Christ acts of Salvation by which we are able to accept the Lords offer of Eternal Bliss.

We do however, accept and recogonize that “good works” are expected and affirm the merits of Christ, as needed for salvation See James Chapter two.

Hope this clears up your mis -understanding:confused:

God’s continued Blessings,
PJM m.c.
 
Reply:

Opps:blush: No, I repeat, No, none, zip, zerro informed, practcing Roman Catholic could in truth, make such an idiotic statement.:o

The RCC believes and teaches that All Salvation originates in Christ Jesus, and that it is the Merits of Christ acts of Salvation by which we are able to accept the Lords offer of Eternal Bliss.

We do however, accept and recogonize that “good works” are expected and affirm the merits of Christ, as needed for salvation See James Chapter two.

Hope this clears up your mis -understanding:confused:

God’s continued Blessings,
PJM m.c.
This did not clear up my confusion. Must a person believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again to be saved? What does the Catholic church teach?
 
If its not clear would they be baptized nonetheless?
No.
Do you have chapter and verse for this?
No, but Jesus said “I have other sheep that are not of this fold”. I dont remember, and don’t have my bible with me right now, sorry.
Anything that is elevated to the same level as the Scriptures needs to be known and studied if this is indeed the case.
See, here is a logical fallacy. It was a higher Source that produced the Scriptures, and the production of them did not “lower” the Source. No one has “elevated” Sacred Tradition. It was infallible in the beginning, which is why the NT could be written from it.
So if you have more then lets study it and see if it passes the test of truly being inspired-inerrant.
Sorry, ja4. This will not be possible for you. It is not possible for a person to study something they don’t believe exists. Common sense should tell you that. Research requires that it’s subject exist,or have at least the potential to exist.

Besides, since your Bible does not contain the “tests” that are used, you have no inerrant authority to use for study.
Is the proclaimation of Mary’s immaculate conception and assumption considered inerrant and inspired?
No. A proclamation is an act, therefore, it is infallible. Writings are not considered infallible because they cannot act. 😉
CHESTERTONRULES;4292036:
Do you consider the teachings of the immaculate conception and her assumption as sacred Scripture?
No. The canon of scripture was closed in the fourth century, and nothing can be added.
This did not clear up my confusion. Must a person believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again to be saved? What does the Catholic church teach?
No. God can save whoever He wants, however He wants. He is not dependent upon human knowledge.
 
CHESTERTONRULES;4292036:
Do you consider the teachings of the immaculate conception and her assumption as sacred Scripture?
Those teachings became Dogma by the Council of Bishops- the Magesterium (direct successors to the Apostles) and approved Officially by The Pope (direct successor to St Peter). They are not the same as the Holy Bible, but equivalent. They are basic Dogma of the Church. Have previously cited the Bible on Our Lord Authorizing the Apostles and His Church to bound on Earth: Mathew 18:18-20 (Dogma, obviously) :bible1: :highprayer:These doctrines derive from common knowledge virtually since the early Centuries, basically.
Vivat Jesus. :knight1: Tony
 
justasking4;4292024:
YES!

Reply:

Catholic Answer on Primacy of Peter

The question before us is “can there be ‘an infallible proclamation’ out side of the bible?"

The short answer is yes.

The RCC teaches and has always taught (and has almost always had desenters, even in the present age), and understood and put into practice that the Supreme Pontiff, whether alone or in “communion with the Magistrium” (the body of bishops world wide that are supporting the Pontiff,) may and can make an official pronouncement from the “chair of Peter” on matters of Faith and or Morals (only), intended for world wide application, and if all above conditions are met, it is understood to be an “infallible pronouncement.”

As a secondary note: All teachings of the Holy Father, relating to the RCC, are to be given assent and acceptance of faith, by all Catholics. In other words we are to accept and live his teachings.

Why is this? Why does the Pope have the right, indeed the mandate to speak to Gods children, on behalf of God Himself?

Because I am limited to the number of words I am permited to use, I will in this post only reference one bible passage, perhaps at a later time, I will post additional verses supporting the Primacy of Peter?

Matt. 16:013-19
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi,
he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build* my* church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19* I* will give *you *the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

We have to establish two platforms for our discussion.

First: we accept the fact that word’s have specific, “common” meeting to those giving utterance and to those being spoken to.

Second: We acknowledge that both those giving utterance, and those who have done the transcribing, are inspired by The Holy Spirit, (Jesus exempted because He too is God), to use specific words, phrases and locations. In other words, mere coincidence has no place in our discussion. We accept the facts that Jesus knew what He was doing, and that as God, He was incapable of lying.

Point One: Why did Jesus select the area of Caesarea Philippi, to make this enormously important appointment?

Reply: Caesarea Philippi is located in the northern part of Judea. The above quoted passage took place on a large hill, and was the location of a very large, and locally famous, Pagan Temple. As a “safeguard” the temple was build behind a huge protective ROCK.

Point Two: In O.T. biblical days it was common for cities to be walled and fortified. Further, they really did have a main gate, and there was a Key to the City, that really locked and unlocked the main gate.

Point Three: In the quoted bible passage: “I,” “you,” “my,” and “church” are all singular for very specific reasons. “Church” for example clearly, and indisputably, shows God’s intent to start and Shepherd only “one church.”

Point Four: In every walled city there was a “King” which is the role Jesus assumes in this story. “Hail King of the Jews!”

Point Five: As one might expect, actually running the city was a whole lot like real work, so it was delegated to another, usually called the “Prime Minister.” So we will use that term for the one who actually ran the city, day in, and day out. The P.M. answered ONLY to “the King.” What the PM ordered done, was done, and what the PM forbid, was legally forbidden, and violators were punished by the PM.

Point Six: The terms,** “To Bind and or To Loose” **were legal and binding at law, Rabbinical Terms, known and accepted by all those Jesus was speaking too as authority to Govern.

Point Seven: Just as Jesus is the King in this story, Simon, Now “Peter” (Greek for “rock,”) is the new Prime Minister! As such he in given total and complete autonomous rule and daily governance of the New Church that Jesus has just created. “On this “rock” meaning the very person of Peter himself, “I” will build “my” church. Again Words Mean Something!

Point Eight: “I will give you” Peter the Key to the Kingdom of Heaven. PERIOD! This is God telling us this fact.

Point Nine: The power to govern is immediate, total, complete, unlimited and binding on all. Amen!

Point Ten: God knew what He was doing, Jesus knew what He was setting up, Peter and the Apostles understood exactly what was meant and accepted and lived in obedience, what God had ordained. We, my friend are to do no less. 'The gates of Hell shall not prevail," does not mean that sin does not exist within the RCC, rather it means that,“sin will not prevail,” and that on matters of “faith and Morals” God will not permit to teach in error.
Amen!👍

God’s continued Blessings,

PJM m

That is a very well presented post. If you don’t mind I have copied it in my scripture file for future reference.

Incidentally did you know that Peter’s name is mentioned 195 in the NT and I can’t remember exactly (but will check) that Paul is only mentioned 29 times.🙂
 
This did not clear up my confusion. Must a person believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again to be saved? What does the Catholic church teach?
I think you should get a Catechism and then you would not need to ask the same question over and over and over again.

All that would be required would be for you to read the answers over and over and over again!

It would certainly save time and effort and space on this thread:o
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
This did not clear up my confusion. Must a person believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again to be saved? What does the Catholic church teach?

Cinette
I think you should get a Catechism and then you would not need to ask the same question over and over and over again.

All that would be required would be for you to read the answers over and over and over again!

It would certainly save time and effort and space on this thread:o
Would you happen to have the catechism # for the answer?
 
I was thinking of Sacred Tradition and it occurred to me that the Church is an example of Sacred Tradition because she evolved from Sacred Tradition. It is the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles which were passed down and evolved into the Church as it is today.

Is that not so?🙂
Please be very careful saying The Church ‘evolved’. Only details have ‘evolved’, because were only 12 Newly Installed by Our Lord Apostles, and our Lord’s Teachings at begining. We have not changed any Basics Our Lord and the Apostles gave us. The Mass is the expanded same Last Supper Feast Our Lord initiated. We have the 7 Sacraments initiated by Our Lord, and which are found in the Bible. :bible1: And nothing The Church Practices or Teaches is contrary to the Bible. In Fact, the NT was like the early Written ‘Manual’, by Our Lord, for the early Church.
Vivat Jesus. Tony
 
This did not clear up my confusion. Must a person believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again to be saved? What does the Catholic church teach?
Great Question, jk4! :aok: And the Catechism has the Great Answer in Sec 571: “The Paschal mystery of Christ’s cross and Resurrection stands at the center of the Good News that the apostles, and the Church following them, are to proclaim to the world. God’s saving plan was accomplihed “once and for all” by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ.”

All of us are learning Great details, by great questions like yours!
Vivat Jesus. Tony
 
Still waiting for JA4 to list the facts he claims prove scripture is the sole rule of faith.

By my count, this is now the ***sixth ***time I’ve asked for these facts.

I can’t help wondering what it says to any lurkers here that I’ve already asked five times and have been given nothing but excuses. Since JA4 claims to have such facts, it should be a piece of cake for him to state them.

If it is the truth that scripture is the sole rule of faith, that is something all Christians should believe. JA4 should have enough Christian honesty and integrity to show the facts he says he has, so we can all believe this “truth.” Yet, so far, he has utterly refused to do so.

So, JA4, what are these facts? And please stick to your sole rule of faith when answering. After all, if it is your ***sole ***rule of faith, you shouldn’t use anything else.
 
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