Sola Scriptura contradicts Inspiration of the apostles?

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when Protestants are “disobedient” to their pastor’s teaching, they are simply following their paradigm. They can tell their pastor, “I read the Bible myself and I came to a different interpretation than you did!” and the pastor must respond, “Good for you! That’s exactly the model we espouse!”
Guess how I know you’ve never spent much time in an LCMS church… 😛

If I said that to my pastor, he’d probably tell me (he’s a jokester and knows my sense of humor) to “put down the crack pipe.” Of course, there are passages that are more meaningful depending on ones place in life, but in anything important, confessional Lutherans are all on the same page.

If there’s not… then they’re not confessional Lutherans. This may be why our church is perhaps shrinking - better to preach the Gospel then lose your way.
 
Divinely revealed? Well, that the church received the Scriptures correctly is certainly within God’s providential plan of history. Since God is the author of the Scriptures, it was His intention that His sheep hear His voice. That isn’t anything I have a problem with. However, that would still not be public revelation. The Scriptures themselves are the revelation.
But since the “Church received Scriptures correctly”, as you say, you must also admit, then, that “since God is the author of the Scriptures” those Scriptures are His infallible Word. Since, as you say and I agree, that His intention is “that the sheep hear His voice” it necessarily follows that to those who have been entrusted to teach and preach His infallible Word should be guaranteed, by Him, to preach it infallibly? Anything less would result in chaos.

Yes/No?
 
Guess how I know you’ve never spent much time in an LCMS church… 😛

If I said that to my pastor, he’d probably tell me (he’s a jokester and knows my sense of humor) to “put down the crack pipe.” Of course, there are passages that are more meaningful depending on ones place in life, but in anything important, confessional Lutherans are all on the same page.

If there’s not… then they’re not confessional Lutherans. This may be why our church is perhaps shrinking - better to preach the Gospel then lose your way.
Yes Ben, I understand what you are saying. However, determining what the “but in anything important” you mention could be one reason why your Church is shrinking.

The all important question, in this regard, is who does the determining?

I have often heard on these forums, from many non-Catholics, that they agree on the essentials. What essentials I ask? Who determines them and on what basis? So long as an individual claims to have the right to determine these essentials all by himself, which is pretty much a Protestant dogma, ensuing doctrinal chaos ensues. Sola History has proven this to be true.
 
The Scriptures themselves are the revelation.
Herein lies the problem Gaelic.

In that case, why would we want to change the revealed Scriptures to not be consistent with the vehicle (Church) that God chose to be the recipient of them?

Because if we have something that is not consistent with God’s revelation, we are indeed making our own man-made interpretation of what is and isn’t Scriptures. It doesn’t matter that a minuscule minority expressed their personal view on the subject, what matters is that the Church as whole, guided by the Spirit of Truth discerned this Revelation.
 
Herein lies the problem Gaelic.

In that case, why would we want to change the revealed Scriptures to not be consistent with the vehicle (Church) that God chose to be the recipient of them?

Because if we have something that is not consistent with God’s revelation, we are indeed making our own man-made interpretation of what is and isn’t Scriptures. It doesn’t matter that a minuscule minority expressed their personal view on the subject, what matters is that the Church as whole, guided by the Spirit of Truth discerned this Revelation.
And here lies the other problem for many non-Catholics: Church authority.
 
Yes Ben, I understand what you are saying. However, determining what the “but in anything important” you mention could be one reason why your Church is shrinking.

The all important question, in this regard, is who does the determining?

I have often heard on these forums, from many non-Catholics, that they agree on the essentials. What essentials I ask? Who determines them and on what basis? So long as an individual claims to have the right to determine these essentials all by himself, which is pretty much a Protestant dogma, ensuing doctrinal chaos ensues. Sola History has proven this to be true.
Indeed. I have hear many non-Catholics tell me we are all “united” in Christ based on faith. Well if such is the case, then why would anyone found new denominations, which at times differ in many aspects? If “faith” is the mortar binding us together,then why the necessity to start another church/community?
 
" . . . pre-Trent council of one?" :rotfl:

Going by his (Luther’s) own words, it appears that he thought himself to be the last word on such things.
Clearly not:
“Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle;
Jon
 
Guess how I know you’ve never spent much time in an LCMS church… 😛
True, dat.
If I said that to my pastor, he’d probably tell me (he’s a jokester and knows my sense of humor) to “put down the crack pipe.”
LOL!
Of course, there are passages that are more meaningful depending on ones place in life, but in anything important, confessional Lutherans are all on the same page.
Ok. I can’t argue with you on that. 🤷

So then it’s not the Bible that one obeys in the end–it’s your church?
 
So then it’s not the Bible that one obeys in the end–it’s your church?
I hope Jon will correct me if I’m wrong, but we should obey our churches teaching as our church interprets scripture. I’m thankful that I haven’t seen a contradiction in church teaching and scripture - I’m not sure what the outcome of such a discovery would be.

I will say that this is a good thing. left to my own devices, I would make a mess of things as my will is pretty strong.
 
I hope Jon will correct me if I’m wrong, but we should obey our churches teaching as our church interprets scripture. I’m thankful that I haven’t seen a contradiction in church teaching and scripture - I’m not sure what the outcome of such a discovery would be.
Yes, I have had this discussion with Jon before. And while he always does a great job providing an explanation of Lutheran theology, I still am left confused how Lutherans could be considered Sola Scriptura advocates.
 
Yes, I have had this discussion with Jon before. And while he always does a great job providing an explanation of Lutheran theology, I still am left confused how Lutherans could be considered Sola Scriptura advocates.
Hi PR. We are sola scriptura advocates because our confession states that:
*"We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8. *

That estimation and judging is the job of the church, not the individual. So, sola scriptura, for Lutherans, is a practice, or praxis, of the church. To be a member of said church, one adheres to the teachings of the church, which are a right reflection of scripture.
While some connect private judgement/personal interpretation with sola scriptura, it is really something rather different. For Lutherans, I have Christian freedom to interpret scripture in areas not held to be doctrine. For example, I am free to hold the personal pious opinion that the Blessed Virgin was ever-virgin, as semper virgo is not doctrine for Lutherans, but I am not free to claim that she was not a virgin at the time of His birth, as that is doctrine.

Jon
 
Hi PR. We are sola scriptura advocates because our confession states that:
*"We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8. *

That estimation and judging is the job of the church, not the individual. So, sola scriptura, for Lutherans, is a practice, or praxis, of the church. To be a member of said church, one adheres to the teachings of the church, which are a right reflection of scripture.
While some connect private judgement/personal interpretation with sola scriptura, it is really something rather different. ** For Lutherans, I have Christian freedom to interpret scripture in areas not held to be doctrine. For example, I am free to hold the personal pious opinion that the Blessed Virgin was ever-virgin, as semper virgo is not doctrine for Lutherans, but I am not free to claim that she was not a virgin at the time of His birth, as that is doctrine.**

Jon
👍
 
Herein lies the problem Gaelic.

In that case, why would we want to change the revealed Scriptures to not be consistent with the vehicle (Church) that God chose to be the recipient of them?
Because it assumes that your particular church body and only yours is the church that received the Scriptures. All based on your hierarchy, of course, rather than on the entire People of God, which is actually what the Church is. It also assumes that that church believed distinctives that your church holds to and that’s exactly what’s in dispute.
 
But since the “Church received Scriptures correctly”, as you say, you must also admit, then, that “since God is the author of the Scriptures” those Scriptures are His infallible Word. Since, as you say and I agree, that His intention is “that the sheep hear His voice” it necessarily follows that to those who have been entrusted to teach and preach His infallible Word should be guaranteed, by Him, to preach it infallibly? Anything less would result in chaos.

Yes/No?
Inasmuch as they are faithful in preaching and teaching what that revelation contains, then they will do so without error.
 
Woe Nelly GB.

All Ecumenical Councils have their prototype in the “Council of Jerusalem”. There can be no doubt that under Peter’s leadership the apostles as a group gave their advice in important matters that concerned the Church as a whole. It was the “Apostle’s Council” that gave judgment on the all important question arising from the admission of Gentiles in to the Church. This was a turning point in the life of the Church. Like the human body the Church grows and gains strength; she, also, had her teething troubles and for the overcoming of these the Councils were without parallel.
You mean James? 🙂

I agree with you as to the purpose of the council…What is missing from later councils is that in Acts, doctrine was still being given via revelation. Nicea, Chalcedon, etc., were not being given new revelation. They were interpreting on revelation that had already been received. If the ecumenical councils are equal in authority to apostolic revelation, then you don’t have a closed canon.
 
What is revelation, PR?
(Divine) Revelation is the Word of God.

Now that I’ve answered your question, could you answer mine that I posed so many pages back?

Where is the concept “There is no new revelation” found in the Bible?
 
(Divine) Revelation is the Word of God.

Now that I’ve answered your question, could you answer mine that I posed so many pages back?

Where is the concept “There is no new revelation” found in the Bible?
Divine revelation is the word of God. Preeminently, that is the Son of God, right?
 
That estimation and judging is the job of the church, not the individual. So, sola scriptura, for Lutherans, is a practice, or praxis, of the church. To be a member of said church, one adheres to the teachings of the church, which are a right reflection of scripture.
While some connect private judgement/personal interpretation with sola scriptura, it is really something rather different.
What say you, then, to this commentary by Jimmy Akin regarding Luther’s apparent rejection of “Scripture only, but interpreted through a church” paradigm?

Thus if one were today to propose a “Scripture only, but as interpreted by a Magisterium” model for theology, it would be immediately and roundly rejected by the Protestant community (except perhaps in a few small, radical sects) as being no true theory of sola scriptura at all. The term “only” in “Scripture only” must be taken not only to exclude other material principles of theology (like Tradition) but also other formal principles of theology (like the Magisterium).

But if one has cut loose the historic Christian principle of formulating the matter of theology into distinct, concrete doctrines then what is one going to use in its place? How is one to formulate doctrines if one has rejected what has historically been the formal principle? What formal principal will you propose in its place?

This was a question put by Catholics to Luther and the other Protestants, who answered that, in the absence of some group of Christians who were divinely commissioned with the task of formulating the material of theology, the individual himself must be divinely commissioned with this task. Thus the doctrine of an absolute right to private judgment–to deciding for oneself what the correct interpretation of Scripture is–was created.

Christians, of course, had always taught a right to private judgment–that the every individual had the right to think on and interpret the Scriptures for himself (this is why the Scriptures were read out loud at Mass, so that even the illiterate could hear them and think about their meaning). The exercise of private judgment was fine and wholesome and to be encouraged by all possible means so long as it was not used to reject those doctrines which had been determined by Christ’s appointed teachers (the Magisterium) to represent the authentic teachings of the Bible.

Thus Christians had historically taught a right to private judgment, but not an absolute right that overthrew the teaching authority which Christ himself set up in his Church by gifting it with official teachers, as the New Testament itself declares (Ephesians 4:11). On any area in which the teaching authority of Christ’s Church had not spoken (which was and is the great majority of areas), private judgment was permitted. It was only when a doctrine which had already been established to be true, such as the Trinity, the fully Divinity and humanity of Christ, the atoning death and resurrection of Christ, the efficacy of the sacraments, etc.–that private judgment was limited.

In order to throw off the Magisterium’s teachings, however, the Reformers had to get past this limitation, and so they asserted an unconditional, absolute right to private judgment, according to which the individual had a right to disagree and to publicly teach contrary to even those doctrines that Christ’s teaching authority had already established as true.

This was necessary as an answer to the Catholic question, “Who are you to overturn a historic Christian teaching which has already been settled by the Magisterium? You are not even a member of that body, much less the whole of it, and such doctrines can never change to begin with.” In the face of this question, the Reformers were driven to answer, “We do not need to be the whole of the Magisterium, or even individual members of it, for every Christian has the right to settle every single doctrine on his own and is not bound in conscience to accept the rulings of the teachers which, we admit, Christ intended his Church to have.”

Thus the doctrine of private judgment became a necessary component of the doctrine of sola scriptura. Scripture itself would be the sole material principle for theology, and the judgment of the individual would be the sole formal principle, as no other source could ultimately and authoritatively tell the believer what was the correct interpretation of Scripture. Any theory which said that there was a magisterial group of Christians who were to interpret the Scriptures on behalf on the individual would be vigorously opposed.
jimmyakin.com/library/sola-scriptura-and-private-judgment
 
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