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PRmerger
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How long have you been Catholic, stew (if you don’t mind my asking
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stewstew03
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I am sincerely interested in hearing more about this, GB. I am assuming you mean that some Catholic doctrines have no basis in Scripture or “history”?
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stewstew03
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Is it an accurate way to phrase it…? Like PR, I’m trying to understand…
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stewstew03
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Since 2005… but it was a long journey.How long have you been Catholic, stew (if you don’t mind my asking
And it’s been a tough one, given that I am surrounded by southern baptists…
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I would say that is not far off the traditional view of Lutherans regarding our confessions, as I noted in referencing Krauth earlier: (paraphrased) Scripture is inerrant, and therefore cannot err, the confessions can err, but do not. Speaking here of doctrine.
Jon
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PRmerger
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stewstew03
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Okay… if the Reformed Confessions are without error, what is the issue with regard to papal infallibility? (Something I know you’ve challenged many times here on CAF).
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cheezey
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PRmerger
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But not the traditional view of Luther, correct, who originally espoused private judgement rather than obedience to a church?
Not Reformed
, Lutheran. 
Actually, I’ve focused my issue on the claim of universal jurisdiction, more than infallibility. And the claim regarding the confessions is not infallibility, or even inerrancy, but a belief that they rightly reflect the truth of scripture - and this is where sola scriptura comes in.
Jon
I don’t know, Luther was not very sympathetic to the Anabaptists, or Zwingli. He was very much supportive of the Augsburg Confession, the Apology, etc. He supported his unwavering belief in the real presence on historic Church teaching, ditto for Baptism and confession. I think your perception is overstated.
Jon
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stewstew03
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Apologies…!Not Reformed
I’m not talking about inerrancy (incapable of error), but infallibility (preserved from error).
Let’s try it this way…
To be infallible is to be protected from error.
Something that “rightly reflects” God’s Word is protected from error because God’s Word is incapable of error.
The Lutheran Confessions rightly reflect God’s Word.
Therefore, the Lutheran Confessions are protected from error.
Is this not a claim of infallibility?
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PRmerger
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I think that Jimmy Akin (in the article previously cited) states it quite well:
The price of error in how to read the Bible is one’s own destruction, and it is easy for the unlearned and unstable to do with the Scriptures, for there are “things in them hard to understand.” Thus we must again beware of the false teachers, the lawless ones who come to us with unauthorized interpretations, and be moved from our own stability in the true teachings of Christ. The need for a Magisterium is key.
It does appear that you are in agreement with this, although you are hesitant to use the word* Magisterium*. Yes?
Akin further comments (bold mine):
[At best, only a class of magisterial Christians could even attempt to apply the rule of private judgment and the “Bible only” theory to which it is a part. But for the average Christian, not a member of his denomination’s magisterial class, not one of the pastors or presbyters or Bible translators, **the source of Christian authoritative teaching would have to be Bible as interpreted by the Magisterium.
This is the way it is in all of the Protestant churches, just as much as it is the case in the Catholic Church. The difference is that the Catholic Church is honest about the role of the Magisterium and does not try to hide it while preaching the absolute right (and the correspondingly enormous responsibility) of the individual Christian having to be his own theologian and thoroughly evaluate all the issues for himself.
The fact that all Protestant denominations have had, of necessity, to reinvent the Catholic model, just clothing it in a rhetoric which masks its true nature, shows that the doctrine of private judgment simply does not work. It cannot work even in theory given the learning and inclinations of the average Christian and the fact denominations and pastors actively work to prohibit its exercise; it has been shown not to work in history, by the explosion of denominations and sects when its implementation was attempted; and it is condemned in the very pages of Scripture itself. But since the teaching of an absolute right of private judgment is an essential component of the doctrine of sola scriptura (for if one looks to a Magisterium then one is not looking to Scripture alone), this means that the doctrine of sola scriptura itself does not work.
So let us cast aside the false promise of “Just-me-and-my-Bible” Christianity, let us remove the crushing burden of telling every individual Christian, no matter how poor, uneducated, or illiterate, that he must be his own theologian and that his soul hangs in the balance, let us remove the hypocrisy Protestant pastors are forced into by the doctrine as they permit for themselves a right they prohibit for the members of their congregations, and let us be honest, with the Catholic Church, about the matter: Sola scriptura, and the absolute right of private judgment which it entails, is simply not God’s plan.
Ok. Definitions: Infallibility, as I understand it, refers to people - the pope, and the Magisterium. Inerrancy to writings - scripture. We would hold that scripture is inerrant, but no human is infallible. That is why we hold nothing equal to scripture, even our own confessions.
Jon
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PRmerger
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But who is it then that wrote the inerrant Scriptures but people? As such, were not these people infallible? They infallibly wrote Scriptures which are inerrant. Yes?
Apostolic era. We agree that those men were inspired by the Holy Spirit. I would make no such claim for our confessions.
Jon
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PRmerger
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So men could be infallible, and, in fact, have been infallible…they just aren’t infallible today?
What I’m saying is there is no reason to believe that today an individual Bishop, by himself, exclusively, is infallible, ex cathedra or otherwise. It is not in keeping with the early Church that required ecumenical councils, of which there has not been one since the 7th.
Jon
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Nita
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If I understand you correctly then Jon, the Scripture writings themselves are inerrant, but we can never know for sure what they mean because no human can infallibly tell us their meaning when understandings of those inerrant Scriptures differ.
Which raises another question: Doesn’t that dramatically decrease the value of the Scriptures since one can never be certain of their true meaning?
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stewstew03
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Definitions:
“Infallibility. In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals.” Catholic Encyclopedia.
“In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a ‘supernatural sense of faith’ the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, ‘unfailingly adheres to this faith.’” Catechism of the Catholic Church, 889.
Catholics say Amen. All humans are fallible. But humans can make infallible proclamations. As an example, see Matthew 16.
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 16:15-17[/BIBLEDRB]
Now, certainly you would agree that Peter was infallible in chapter 16. But that he was full of error in chapter 26.
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 26:74[/BIBLEDRB]
But you said the Confessions are essentially equal to scripture, because they rightly reflect scripture. Furthermore, based on your definition of inerrancy (a writing without error) the Confessions are inerrant…?
Again, let’s look at this syllogism:
To be infallible is to be protected from error.
Something that “rightly reflects” God’s Word is protected from error because God’s Word is incapable of error.
The Lutheran Confessions rightly reflect God’s Word.
Therefore, the Lutheran Confessions are protected from error.
Where is the error…?
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