Sola Scriptura is Absolutely biblical

[Craig_Kennedy]

I understand.

I would point out that we differ in interpretation.

To say that purgatory is not biblical is no different than saying that the Trinity is not biblical.

I believe the doctrines are there even if the specific words are not.

This is a difference in interpretation.

Agreed?

I would say that the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly affirmed in scripture and I strongly believe in it as a core ingredient of biblical Christianity.

I have, furthermore, been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

I share, too, along with true Catholics a devout belief in the Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed and Athanasian Creeds as true affirmations of what the scriptures teach. May God bless you!

Yes, I can agree that the difference between us on Purgatory is in the area of interpretation. I do not consider the scripture upholds the concept. However, if you do that is your interpretation and I do not consider that it infracts or improves your relationship with God, one way or the other.

True Catholics and true Protestants will be part of the Church triumphant (in heaven). To God be the glory!

 

[Cinette]

Response to historyb;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinette
God indeed in responsible for the Bible but surely you accept that he used human beings inspired by the Spirit to write it? Do you believe that God himself wrote the Bible?!!! and that he dropped it all beautifully printed from heaven?

No and notice I never said that. It is something Catholics have used as a Protestant myth, no Protestant believes that.

Then what did you mean – who wrote the different books of the NT and who compiled it if it wasn’t the Catholic Church? Do you know that from the very beginning we have always had Bible readings included in the celebration of the Mass?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinette
God wants to spread the Gospel but he uses us as his instruments. The OT does indeed comes from the Jews.- ALL of it! Yet some folk have removed 7 books from the OT canon - by what authority? The Church founded by Jesus Christ - the RCC - clearly had as its first leader Peter (Matt 16:18-19, Luke 22:31-32, Jn 21:15-19) You seem to believe that the catholic church to which you believe you belong is not the Church of which Peter was appointed as the first Pastor. But it is in the Bible!

If you study you will find tha those 7 books were considered extra canonical from the get go. The RCC included them back in.

The so-called deuterocanonical books or the apocrypha as Protestants call them are not extra at all but have been removed from protestant Bibles. The Early Apostolic Fathers following the Apostles used the Septuagint or Greek translation of the OT used by the Jews of the dispersion made in Alexandria. The Fathers peppered their writings with references from the “extra” OT books because Jesus, his Apostles, the New Testament writers and the early Church all used an OT that included these extra books. The Palestine canon of the OT which excluded these books and which Protestant Christian use had only been invented in 97AD at the Jewish Council of Jamnia. Interestingly, among the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered near Qumran in 1947 the deutero. OT books found in Catholic Bibles but not in Protestant ones have been uncovered in Hebrew.

Quote:riginally Posted by Cinette
We have a list of all Peter’s successors (the Vicar of Christ): Linus, Anacletus, Clement 1 (in 96 AD) Evaristus and so on throughout the centuries, 265 of them up to our present Pope Benedict XVI in unbroken succession. You cannot deny history.

I highly disagree with that list, in fact in Scriptures Paul appeals to James in Jersulam not Peter in Rome.

Regarding part of the authentic list of Popes provided by us from Peter in 64AD to the present date, kindly refer to the highly esteemed concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church issued by Oxford University Press for the full historic list of 265 Popes. Your statement of disagreement is common among Fundamentalist Christians who have no idea of history at all and who despise us. If you people were allowed to study history and not only the Bible you would become Catholic. The famous and highly esteemed convert from Anglicanism, Cardinal John Henry Newman wrote, “To be seeped in History is to be Catholic”. You cannot deny history, my friend – you do yourself a disservice!!!

*Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinette
Do you deny that the Councils of Hippo and Carthage, held under Pope Damasus I (the 37th Pope) officially authenticated the books of scripture under the inspiration of the Spirit?
*

Yes I do, I deny that just because they recognized the books that that means they have authority. As you yourself have opined it was God who was the guide and nowhere has He given up His own authority.

God, in Jesus tells us ”all authority has been given to me” This authority he passed on to his Apostles who with the prophets formed the foundation of the Church. This Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” 1 Tim3:15. The leaders of this Church, Peter and his successors, the Apostles and the Bishops have clearly had this authority passed on to them. See Matt 16:18-19 and other texts. So Pope Damasus indeed had supreme authority. This has been accepted by history and the Church down the ages. Who are you now to tell us that this is not so!

*“HistoryB” why don’t you live up to your name! You obviously chose it because you have an inquisitive mind. Please, let us engage in healthy, intelligent debate by backing our arguments with Bible quotes and Historical facts. Let us make progress and not stubbornly adhere to the “yes but, yes but, yes but……” of some of the posters who obviously do not really read and take note of some of the outstanding and painstaking responses by some of the posters. In fact, I have decided not to engage with people who are wasting time on these threads.

I myself am a revert to the Catholic Church after a long absence and I am reading and learning. I am not an expert and have to selectively study and always ensure that my sources are impeccable.*
:yup: :tiphat:

 

[ron77nyc]

Hi, Craig !

In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. What spirits? What prison? We will become pure spirits only after we die, so the spirits have to be the spirits of the dead. Prison cannot mean Heaven, and souls in hell are lost forever. Prison must mean a third place

And there are more verses like these Craig.

Peace, onenow1

They were being held there before the resurrection. They were still under the old covenant. In Macabees they prayed for the dead under the old covenant.

 

[ron77nyc]

We are never worthy of God’s presence. We are sinners from birth. The death of our body destroys the sin in us. Paul writes about this and does not include a purging stage.
! Corinthians 15
The Resurrection Body
35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

 

[ron77nyc]

That’s quite a cluster-bomb of Catholic misconceptions! If you are going to disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches, disagree with what she ACTUALLY teaches!

There is a difference between what the Church teaches and what it should teach. The Church is huge, its teachings are complex and there is no way for you or anyone to know what the Church teaches in every city in every part of the world at any given time in history. It fluctuates constantly.

 

[Lampo]

There is a difference between what the Church teaches and what it should teach. The Church is huge, its teachings are complex and there is no way for you or anyone to know what the Church teaches in every city in every part of the world at any given time in history. It fluctuates constantly.

Give us an example.

 

[Lampo]

Catholics believe in Purgatory. This is an “extra” added by the Church, based on tradition. There is no such spiritual state of reality in God’s created universe.

The Bible does not teach Purgatory. There is absolutely no evidence for such a state. Catholics teach there is a Purgatory; I disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches on this point.

1. Are you perfect now?
2. Will you be perfect in Heaven? (assuming you make it to Heaven.)
3. If you answered no, then yes, what about you changed?

If you are not perfect now and you die now and are then perfect in Heaven, what changed in you between the time you died and when you arrive in Heaven?

 

[dawid]

There is a difference between what the Church teaches and what it should teach. The Church is huge, its teachings are complex and there is no way for you or anyone to know what the Church teaches in every city in every part of the world at any given time in history. It fluctuates constantly.

It is the responsibility of the bishop of each diocese to ensure that his pastors do comply with doctrine.

Since the early Church, there have been occasions as you suggest. The bishops of the time attended to the errors. You may see this in the Epistles and letters.

 

[Lampo]

The Bible does not teach Purgatory.

The Bible does not teach. People teach. Jesus left us the Magisterium for this very reason. He did not leave us a book.

Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59
Indication of a temporary state in which there is a purification from sin. Purgatory leaves us perfect and ready for a relationship with God for eternity.

Matt. 5:48
We cannot be perfect on our own. Only God’s everlasting burning love can bring us to perfection

Matt. 12:32
Forgiveness before heaven, but after death.

2 Tim. 1:16-18
Onesiphorus is dead already, but Paul seeks mercy for him. There is no need for mercy in heaven, and none given in hell.

Heb. 12:14
We still sin as believers, but we must be perfectly holy to be before God.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6
Righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:27
Nothing unclean enters heaven. Propensity to sin is uncleanliness

Gen. 50:10
Prayer for the dead.

2 Macc. 12:43-45
Prayer for the dead.

Heb. 12:29
An example of God’s consuming fire

1 Peter 1:6-7
Referance to fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Zech. 13:8-9
Purification by fire for those that are saved.

Mal. 3:2-3
Purification of the righteous dead.

 

[onenow1]

What scripture does affirm is this:

At death, a person’s final spiritual state is settled. For those numbered among the sheep (the godly) their spirits are at peace with Christ in an “intermediate” state. This intermediate state is not purgatory but, simply, the soul in its naked state awaiting the resurrection of the body. They then go to heaven in its fullness.

=onenow, This is your opinion Craig, and that is fine. However the topic is : Sola Scriptura is Absolutely biblical: And as you can see many individuals do not agree, so what happens to sola when this occurs ?

Here is the actual biblical opinion the way I see it below.

3:12-15:
“Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire*.”

You see craig we can’t both be right and; as a matter of fact,there is a wide range of opinions on many topics in scripture, in the end our opinions are not relevant. Jesus left us with a hierarchy. This is what devout catholics believe. May the Holy Spirt lead us both as we discern truth.

Peace,onenow1

We shall steer safely through every storm, as long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed in God. St. Francis De Sales

 

[ron77nyc]

Give us an example.

The example is the one I already gave. In all my years as a Catholic I never heard salvation by faith until 20 yrs. ago at a Catholic Mass by a priest who was afeectionately called “the Protestant” by parishioners who knew him. My parents and grandparents never knew about salvation by faith. If we go back to the early church fathers we can see this doctrine but it was never taught.

 

[Lampo]

The example is the one I already gave. In all my years as a Catholic I never heard salvation by faith until 20 yrs. ago at a Catholic Mass by a priest who was afeectionately called “the Protestant” by parishioners who knew him. My parents and grandparents never knew about salvation by faith. If we go back to the early church fathers we can see this doctrine but it was never taught.

This is not an example of me or anyone not knowing what the Church teaches. BTW, what is "salvation by faith’? The Church teaches we are saved by grace alone. This could be expounded upon, but the Church is very clear on salvation.

 

[Cinette]

The example is the one I already gave. In all my years as a Catholic I never heard salvation by faith until 20 yrs. ago at a Catholic Mass by a priest who was afeectionately called “the Protestant” by parishioners who knew him. My parents and grandparents never knew about salvation by faith. If we go back to the early church fathers we can see this doctrine but it was never taught.

It sounds like you were not properly instructed in the Faith, hence your confused utterances.

You also sound rather rebellious against the Church. I went through a stage like that. I would like to suggest that you get hold of Scott Hahn’s “Rome Sweet Home” and even CDs of his Conversion Story. You could also get some books by Patrick Madrid which are pocketsize, concise and extremely helpful. You will definitely be very pleased with the result and may even want more of Madrid’s books. Another beauty and one which I have read at least three times is “Surprised by Truth”

You will thank me

:yup:

 

[ron77nyc]

The Bible does not teach. People teach. Jesus left us the Magisterium for this very reason. He did not leave us a book.

Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59
Indication of a temporary state in which there is a purification from sin. Purgatory leaves us perfect and ready for a relationship with God for eternity.

Matt. 5:48
We cannot be perfect on our own. Only God’s everlasting burning love can bring us to perfection

Matt. 12:32
Forgiveness before heaven, but after death.

2 Tim. 1:16-18
Onesiphorus is dead already, but Paul seeks mercy for him. There is no need for mercy in heaven, and none given in hell.

Heb. 12:14
We still sin as believers, but we must be perfectly holy to be before God.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6
Righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:27
Nothing unclean enters heaven. Propensity to sin is uncleanliness

Gen. 50:10
Prayer for the dead.

2 Macc. 12:43-45
Prayer for the dead.

Heb. 12:29
An example of God’s consuming fire

1 Peter 1:6-7
Referance to fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Zech. 13:8-9
Purification by fire for those that are saved.

Mal. 3:2-3
Purification of the righteous dead.

 

[ron77nyc]

It sounds like you were not properly instructed in the Faith, hence your confused utterances.

You also sound rather rebellious against the Church. I went through a stage like that. I would like to suggest that you get hold of Scott Hahn’s “Rome Sweet Home” and even CDs of his Conversion Story. You could also get some books by Patrick Madrid which are pocketsize, concise and extremely helpful. You will definitely be very pleased with the result and may even want more of Madrid’s books. Another beauty and one which I have read at least three times is “Surprised by Truth”

You will thank me

:yup:

I’m trying to understand purgatory at the moment. Is everyone going to purgatory before going to heaven or are some going directly to heaven?

 

[Lampo]

I’m trying to understand purgatory at the moment. Is everyone going to purgatory before going to heaven or are some going directly to heaven?

We believe that there are those that die without need of further purification and go directly to Heaven.

 

[ron77nyc]

We believe that there are those that die without need of further purification and go directly to Heaven.

How does that happen to some and not others?

 

[davidv]

How does that happen to some and not others?

For the “some” that go to heaven directly, they have, through prayer and charity, completely ordered their will to God’s and have made full reparation for all the sins they had committed. My personal opinion it that very few manage to get to this state while alive.

 

[Lampo]

How does that happen to some and not others?

Take an infant that has been baptized for instance. We believe at baptism original sin is washed away. It is impossible for an infant to commit a personal sin. Venial or mortal. If an infant dies after being properly baptized, we believe he/she rides the elevator straight up to Heaven without stopping! Isn’t that awesome?

That’s just one example that I thought of off the top of my head. Perhaps others have more examples. Have you read much on the doctrine of purgatory?(CATHOLIC documents that is)

 

[Cinette]

I’m trying to understand purgatory at the moment. Is everyone going to purgatory before going to heaven or are some going directly to heaven?

I’ll give you an example. Imagine Mother Teresa only died today at the same time as me for instance. I think she would go straight to heaven and I would probably have to go to Purgatory for a period of purification.

You know if you study the Bible verses and the teachings in the Catechism you will see that it makes perfect sense. You won’t find the word Purgatory in the Bible but, as with the Trinity, the evidence is there.