Sola Scriptura is Absolutely biblical

[justasking4]

Lampo;4297300]
Originally Posted by justasking4
How is believing the Scriptures to be inspired-inerrant and the sole authority a non biblical tradition of men?
Lampo
Because the doctrine of sola scriptura is not found in the Scriptures, thus un-Biblical. It is a relatively new idea developed by men.

Of course it is in the Scriptures. Jesus and His apostles always put the highest priority on the Scriptures. They are constantly using the Scriptures to support their teachings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Secondly, when Jesus defended His teachings or engaged Satan what did He use?

Lampo
Your questions isn’t even deserving of a “nice try.” Neither the Church nor the Bible as we have it today were in existence while Jesus was alive.

What did Jesus use when He was engaged with Satan in Matthew 4:1-10? What did He rebuke the evil with?

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

The Catholic Church only in the past 20 years started teaching salvation by faith. It was always a work your way into heaven by not sinning gospel before that. They still teach that you have to be perfectly sinless to enter heaven. Is anyone perfectly sinless besides the Blessed Mother? Therefore no one is going directly to heaven but they are first going to Purgatory. If that were the true gospel wouldn’t the apostles and Jesus have explained it that way?

I agree with these sentiments.

Although I have a great respect for Catholics who practise their faith and regard such, obviously, as true Christians and part of Christ’s universal (catholic) church; a candid reading of the New Testament reveals that the true gospel was taught by Christ and the apostles. It involved a direct relationship to God based on repentance and faith and immediate regeneration.

This true gospel, furthermore, heralded the complete and finished work of Christ on the Cross as sufficient to cover all the sins of those who turn to Christ in genuine repentance and faith. There is not a shred of evidence that Christ intended Christians to confess their sins to a Priest (Christ is the only Mediator between God and humans); nor is there a shred of evidence that there exists a state of spiritual reality called Purgatory. It is - for these very reasons - why I am a Protestant.

The preaching of Christ and the apostles was clear, easy to understand, challenging and demanding; REPENT! FLEE FROM THE WRATH TO COME! There were no priestly intermediaries necessary for this to be achieved.

I have no problem in recognising true and genuine Catholics as my brothers and sisters. However, the teaching of the New Testament leads me to reject Purgatory as a divinely inspired truth.

 

[Lampo]

Of course it is in the Scriptures. Jesus and His apostles always put the highest priority on the Scriptures. They are constantly using the Scriptures to support their teachings.

Then you should change your sola scriptura theology to “Old Testament sola scriptura.”

What did Jesus use when He was engaged with Satan in Matthew 4:1-10? What did He rebuke the evil with?

1 Tim. 3:15?

 

[Lampo]

Of course it is in the Scriptures.

Chapter and verse please.

 

[Lampo]

I agree with these sentiments.

Although I have a great respect for Catholics who practise their faith and regard such, obviously, as true Christians and part of Christ’s universal (catholic) church; a candid reading of the New Testament reveals that the true gospel was taught by Christ and the apostles. It involved a direct relationship to God based on repentance and faith and immediate regeneration.

This true gospel, furthermore, heralded the complete and finished work of Christ on the Cross as sufficient to cover all the sins of those who turn to Christ in genuine repentance and faith. There is not a shred of evidence that Christ intended Christians to confess their sins to a Priest (Christ is the only Mediator between God and humans); nor is there a shred of evidence that there exists a state of spiritual reality called Purgatory. It is - for these very reasons - why I am a Protestant.

The preaching of Christ and the apostles was clear, easy to understand, challenging and demanding; REPENT! FLEE FROM THE WRATH TO COME! There were no priestly intermediaries necessary for this to be achieved.

I have no problem in recognising true and genuine Catholics as my brothers and sisters. However, the teaching of the New Testament leads me to reject Purgatory as a divinely inspired truth.

That’s quite a cluster-bomb of Catholic misconceptions! If you are going to disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches, disagree with what she ACTUALLY teaches!

 

[guanophore]

However, if biblical inerrancy is upheld by the Catholic Church it is my understanding that you do not postulate that it is the supreme standard of divine revelation.

You are correct. The Church teaches that it is Christ who is the supreme divine revelation:

John 1:1-5
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.”

Col 2:9-10
9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have come to fullness in him, who is the head of every ruler and authority.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers — all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. " Col 1:15-20

Scripture does testify of Him, but He has the primacy.

John 5:39-41

39 “You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

This is where I would differ with you. It seems to me that the divinely revealed and inspired scriptures assert that they are the supreme standard in determining truth.

I can see how it would seem this way. All those who have been separated from Christ in the Eucharist only have left what is in the Scriptures.

If you assert that scripture, tradition and reason are equal standards of authority on what authority do you make this claim?

We do not.

Who gets to decide which “category” of authority wins out in theological controversies?

The decision is made by the authority appointed by Christ.

Matt 18:17-20
17 If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them."

Jesus set it up this way because He knew the Holy Writings could not arbitrate. Arbitration requires intellect and will, and these are not qualities of scripture.

 

[distracted]

I’m jumping in here, despite the fact i haven’t read all the posts…

Sola scriptura is nonsense… for one thing, Jesus never wrote any of the sciptures… & never told anyone to write anything (that we know of… in other words: that’s not in the Bible )…

What about all those people who were preached to by the priests in the Church (remember the Church?) before M. Luther came along… in 1520s… Were they not really Christians?? Why would Jesus come to Earth and then let His true faith just die out until Mr. saintly (Yikes… can barely say such a thing!!! ) ’ M. Luther came along…

i guess there were no real Christians until then… ???

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

That’s quite a cluster-bomb of Catholic misconceptions! If you are going to disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches, disagree with what she ACTUALLY teaches!

Catholics believe in Purgatory. This is an “extra” added by the Church, based on tradition. There is no such spiritual state of reality in God’s created universe.

The Bible does not teach Purgatory. There is absolutely no evidence for such a state. Catholics teach there is a Purgatory; I disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches on this point.

 

[onenow1]

Catholics believe in Purgatory. This is an “extra” added by the Church, based on tradition. There is no such spiritual state of reality in God’s created universe.

The Bible does not teach Purgatory. There is absolutely no evidence for such a state. Catholics teach there is a Purgatory; I disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches on this point.

Hi, Craig !

In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. What spirits? What prison? We will become pure spirits only after we die, so the spirits have to be the spirits of the dead. Prison cannot mean Heaven, and souls in hell are lost forever. Prison must mean a third place

And there are more verses like these Craig.

Peace, onenow1

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Hi, Craig !

In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. What spirits? What prison? We will become pure spirits only after we die, so the spirits have to be the spirits of the dead. Prison cannot mean Heaven, and souls in hell are lost forever. Prison must mean a third place

And there are more verses like these Craig.

Peace, onenow1

Can you please give me the other verses that you have in mind which, from your understanding, appear to support a concept of Purgatory?

May God bless you.

 

[onenow1]

Can you please give me the other verses that you have in mind which, from your understanding, appear to support a concept of Purgatory?

May God bless you.

St. Paul prayed for his dead friend Onesiphorus in 2Timothy 1:18,
“May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day.”

=onenow1 Why would Paul pray for the dead if he thought his friend to be in heaven or hell where prayers would help neither.

“…Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that has unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King of the Lord of Hosts. And one of the Seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth and said, ‘BEHOLD THIS HAS TOUCHED YOUR LIPS, AND YOUR INIQUITIES SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, AND YOUR SIN SHALL BE CLEANSED’.” Isaiah 6:5-7

That’s enough for now.

Peace, onenow1

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

St. Paul prayed for his dead friend Onesiphorus in 2Timothy 1:18,
“May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day.”

=onenow1 Why would Paul pray for the dead if he thought his friend to be in heaven or hell where prayers would help neither.

“…Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that has unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King of the Lord of Hosts. And one of the Seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth and said, ‘BEHOLD THIS HAS TOUCHED YOUR LIPS, AND YOUR INIQUITIES SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, AND YOUR SIN SHALL BE CLEANSED’.” Isaiah 6:5-7

That’s enough for now.

Peace, onenow1

None of these verses, either explicitly or remotely, support the notion of Purgatory.

The concept of Purgatory is utterly foreign to the ethos and spirit of the New Testament itself. It is not taught by Christ or the apostles or even vaguely hinted at.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Catholics believe in Purgatory. This is an “extra” added by the Church, based on tradition. There is no such spiritual state of reality in God’s created universe.

The Bible does not teach Purgatory. There is absolutely no evidence for such a state. Catholics teach there is a Purgatory; I disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches on this point.

That is not true. You might have a different interpretation, but just like the Trinity, purgatory is a biblical doctrine.

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

That is not true. You might have a different interpretation, but just like the Trinity, purgatory is a biblical doctrine.

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Thank you for your post.

Let me say that I do not question your integrity - or, for that matter, other Catholics who share the same view - and spirituality.

I do have a profound respect for true Catholics and we do share many things in common. I have no problem fellowshipping with true Catholics.

I cannot, with all the best will in the world however, see how you might justify your view of Purgatory as you have explained it in your post. It is a “large stretch” in my opinion and certainly your interpretation. I do not share your interpretation on these issues.

 

[narrowpath]

Hello Friends,

“It is written”…

(15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
(16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:15-17

(18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:18-21

Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39

Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

You have the freedom of conscience.
“I receive not honor from men.” John 5:41

If, I repeat if you support freedom of conscience and that of choice, allow the following link to remain, and people to look for themselves. If Catholicism is truth then allow it to be compared.

amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Media-RtR-Video.html

“Here I stand I can do no other.” Martin Luther

If you do not believe in Sola Scriptura, the following statement from New York Catechism is simple to swallow.

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of the Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the found of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism

God help us when a man places himself above the " Holy One of Israel," Jesus Christ alone is salvation found in.

Righteousness by faith

Galatians 5:5-6
(5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
(6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

[Emphasis of bold added, to make clear Jesus Christ alone is salvation in and no other]

amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Media-RtR-Video.html

Search for yourselves, Jesus Christ wants so much to have a personal relationship with you.

As a catholic, I believe every one of those scriptures 100%!
BUT…SHOW ME A VERSE THAT SAYS THAT ONLY scripture is profitable for proof, correction, etc. And what about 2 Thessolonians 2:15 where it says that we are to o bey “the traditions of our fathers, whether by mouth or epistle”?

 

[onenow1]

None of these verses, either explicitly or remotely, support the notion of Purgatory.

Originally Posted by onenow1
St. Paul prayed for his dead friend Onesiphorus in 2Timothy 1:18,
“May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day.”

“…Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that has unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King of the Lord of Hosts. And one of the Seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth and said, ‘BEHOLD THIS HAS TOUCHED YOUR LIPS, AND YOUR INIQUITIES SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, AND YOUR SIN SHALL BE CLEANSED’.” Isaiah 6:5-7

How do you see these passages craig ?

Here’s another Craig: : What about Lazarus? He was already dead four days (John 11:17) when Jesus arrived at his tomb. Where was his soul during those four days? It could not be heaven or hell for the same reasons as for Moses and Elias. At the transfiguration.
His soul had to have been in a third place.

Peace, onenow1

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thank you for your post.

Let me say that I do not question your integrity - or, for that matter, other Catholics who share the same view - and spirituality.

I do have a profound respect for true Catholics and we do share many things in common. I have no problem fellowshipping with true Catholics.

I cannot, with all the best will in the world however, see how you might justify your view of Purgatory as you have explained it in your post. It is a “large stretch” in my opinion and certainly your interpretation. I do not share your interpretation on these issues.

I understand.

I would point out that we differ in interpretation.

To say that purgatory is not biblical is no different than saying that the Trinity is not biblical.

I believe the doctrines are there even if the specific words are not.

This is a difference in interpretation.

Agreed?

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Craig Kennedy;4297995:

None of these verses, either explicitly or remotely, support the notion of Purgatory.

Originally Posted by onenow1
St. Paul prayed for his dead friend Onesiphorus in 2Timothy 1:18,
“May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day.”

“…Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that has unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King of the Lord of Hosts. And one of the Seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth and said, ‘BEHOLD THIS HAS TOUCHED YOUR LIPS, AND YOUR INIQUITIES SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, AND YOUR SIN SHALL BE CLEANSED’.” Isaiah 6:5-7

How do you see these passages craig ?

Here’s another Craig: : What about Lazarus? He was already dead four days (John 11:17) when Jesus arrived at his tomb. Where was his soul during those four days? It could not be heaven or hell for the same reasons as for Moses and Elias. At the transfiguration.
His soul had to have been in a third place.

Peace, onenow1

I believe that there is an intermediate state, but this is a different thing from affirming a belief in Purgatory.

It seems to me that Catholics affirm Purgatory as a place of smoothing out the rough edges of a redeemed person’s soul. I can, in a sense, appreciate from a human point of view the apparent psychological need for such a concept. However, as I have stated, scripture affords no place to such a notion.

What scripture does affirm is this:

At death, a person’s final spiritual state is settled. For those numbered among the sheep (the godly) their spirits are at peace with Christ in an “intermediate” state. This intermediate state is not purgatory but, simply, the soul in its naked state awaiting the resurrection of the body. They then go to heaven in its fullness.

For those numbered among the goats (the ungodly), their spirits are in torment and anguish as they have finally and deliberately rejected Christ in this life. The intermediate state for the finally impenitent is the soul in its naked unsaved state awaiting the resurrection body of damnation. They then go to hell, a place of eternal banishment from the presence of God.

The chief difference between our views, is that I consider that at the death of a godly person their spirit is with Christ and their redemption complete; rather than the Catholic view, that the godly person has to undergo further sanctification in order to be fit for heaven. This is the chief difference in a nutshell.

I repeat I have a love for all true Catholics and such will be in heaven with me. It is just that I do not see Purgatory, as such, declared authoritatively in the scriptures. May God bless you!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That is purgatory.

Purgatory is merely a time for the final cleansing that makes us worthy of God’s presence.

 

[guanophore]

The Roman Catholic Church was not founded by Christ, thenWrong!!! Jesus tells us that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the truth 1 Tim 3:15. Which Church? Obviously the one with Peter and his successors as the chief Pastors Matt 16:18-19 . The RCC developed historically as an institution.Historically it began at Pentecost and was referred by St Ignatius of Antioch (a disciple of St John) as (Roman Catholic) In the RCC as an institution there have always been true believers, as well as much apostasy and nominalism. The same applies to the Protestant Churches.

The Bible attests to a living apostolic faith that preceded the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost.Some of the Apostolic Fathers see the Church the as commencing when Longinus pierced the side of Christ on Calvary.

I am sorry that I cannot distinguish which quotes are whose, but I want to throw in that there was no separate “Roman” Rite in the Church for centuries. The common language was Greek, and this was the universal language across the empire. Gradually, as the Roman Empire broke apart, each region returned to the use of their native languages. When politics, economics, and war separated the East from the West. the Latin Rite developed and spread North into Europe. This is why most people from England and Spain, and their descendants here in the US don’t know that there are 22 other Rites in the Catholic Church. A lot of Catholics don’t know that either.