Sola Scriptura is Absolutely biblical

[dawid]

There is enough in the history to make even catholics blush with anger. Just look at the inquisitions that went on for centuries with the apprival of popes.

The Church consists of fallible people that have sinned often and badly.
However it is that same Church that compiled the NT from Tradition with the guidance of the holy Spirit.

Concerning the inquisitions, I refer you to catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0709tbt.asp

 

[sola_scriptura]

-For the proponents of sola scriptura-

Where do the Early Church Fathers teach sola scriptura? And those that composed the canon in the 4th century Councils - where are their arguments in favor of sola scriptura?

God Himself taught it through Paul and Peter.

 

[Lampo]

God Himself taught it through Paul and Peter.

Even though the Bible did not exist…amazing.

 

[dawid]

God Himself taught it through Paul and Peter.

Kindly provide us with the supporting reference from holy Scripture that we may learn.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Kindly provide us with the supporting reference from holy Scripture that we may learn.

Sure.

Paul said:

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

For any who have any inclination to believe only the Old Testament is “scripture” Peter said:

as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

So Peter, “the rock” called Paul’s letters “scripture” & 2 Tim. 3:16 (written by Paul) forms the central basis for the doctrine of sola scriptura – case closed.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Sure.

Paul said:

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

For any who have any inclination to believe only the Old Testament is “scripture” Peter said:

as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

So Peter, “the rock” called Paul’s letters “scripture” – case closed.

If Peter said it, then it is true, given his unique position in the Church. Is that your point?

Just because all scripture is useful for teaching we shouldn’t assume that God’s word cannot also be transmitted orally through tradition and liturgy, right?

 

[Lampo]

Sure.

1. Paul said:

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

For any who have any inclination to believe only the Old Testament is “scripture” Peter said:

1. as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

So Peter, “the rock” called Paul’s letters “scripture” – case closed.

How do you know Paul is the writer of 2 Peter?

No where in those verses does it mention scripture alone.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

If Peter said it, then it is true, given his unique position in the Church. Is that your point?

Just because all scripture is useful for teaching we shouldn’t assume that God’s word cannot also be transmitted orally through tradition and liturgy, right?

Paul also said:

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

 

[A_Sinner_1]

So Peter, “the rock” called Paul’s letters “scripture” – case closed.

Thanks for answering my previous question (somewhere up above there) as to where St. Paul received his authority, and why the churches should pay attention to his letters.

I’m happy to see you accept the authority of the pope. Praise the Lord!

 

[sola_scriptura]

If Peter said it, then it is true, given his unique position in the Church. Is that your point?

Just because all scripture is useful for teaching we shouldn’t assume that God’s word cannot also be transmitted orally through tradition and liturgy, right?

If anything abrogates scripture then it’s heresy, pure and simple.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Thanks for answering my previous question (somewhere up above there) as to where St. Paul received his authority, and why the churches should pay attention to his letters.

I’m happy to see you accept the authority of the pope. Praise the Lord!

why do people make so many silly statements on this board? You obviously know I don’t accept the authority of your Pope. Can’t you debate a point without absurdities?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

If anything abrogates scripture then it’s heresy, pure and simple.

True enough.

Do you believe these passages are the word of God? How do you fulfill the truth contained therein?

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[twb1621]

The Fathers, Councils and Popes speak on Tradition
Historic
“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the Traditions even as I have delivered them to you” - 1 Cor. 11:2

To make sure that the apostolic Tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy: “What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession–his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach.

The early Church fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, recognized the necessity of the Traditions that had been handed down from the Apostles and guarded them scrupulously, as the following quotations show.

Pope Clement I
“Then the reverence of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the Gospels is established, and the Tradition of the Apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults” (Letter to the Corinthians 11 [A.D. 80]).

Papias
“Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the Apostles from those who accompanied them, and he moreover asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their Traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from Tradition” (Fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).

Eusebius of Caesarea
“At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apolinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from Tradition” (Church History 4:21).

Irenaeus of Lyons
“As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the Tradition is one and the same” (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

Irenaeus of Lyons
“That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the Tradition of truth. . . . What if the Apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of Tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the Churches?” (ibid., 3:4:1).

Irenaeus of Lyons
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the Tradition of the Apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles and their successors to our own times–men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the Tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles.
“With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree–that is, all the faithful in the whole world–and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic Tradition” (ibid., 3:3:1-2).

Eusebius of Caesarea
“A question of no small importance arose at that time [A.D. 190]. For the parishes of all Asia . . . held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior’s Passover. . . . But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from Apostolic Tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast [of Lent] on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Savior [Sunday]” (Church History 4:23)…
For continued information go to
stas.org/apologetics/crisis/Vatican_II/tradidi.shtml

 

[sola_scriptura]

Paul also said:

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Indeed, fortunately I am very confident saintly intercession, Mariology, venerating icons, and works based righteousness was never taught by any apostle, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

I remind you of what Jesus stated:

They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men" (Mark 7:7-8).

I also remind you of the second commandment:

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth (Deuteronomy 5:8).

 

[dawid]

Sure.

Paul said:

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

For any who have any inclination to believe only the Old Testament is “scripture” Peter said:

as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

So Peter, “the rock” called Paul’s letters “scripture” & 2 Tim. 3:16 (written by Paul) forms the central basis for the doctrine of sola scriptura – case closed.

It is correct that the Scripture that Peter referred to was the OT.
During St Peter’s life, the holy Scripture of the NT was still in the process of development with the guidance of the holy Spirit. At the same time, there were many other writings taking place - most were eventually rejected by the Magisterium.

The Magisterium presided by Peter’s successor decided which of the writings of the Apostles and disciples were inspired and should be included in the Canon of the Church.
This was done with the guidance of the holy Spirit and is inerrant.

I’m afraid that your evidence fails to support your claim of the validity of SS.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Indeed, fortunately I am very confident saintly intercession, Mariology, venerating icons, and works based righteousness was never taught by any apostle, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

I remind you of what Jesus stated:

They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men" (Mark 7:7-8).

I also remind you of the second commandment:

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth (Deuteronomy 5:8).

Let’s start with intercessory prayer:

I’ll concede from the start that this case is not explicit in scripture. However, I think the implicit case is compelling. I’ll attempt to make four main points:

1. Those who have died in God’s good grace are alive and that these people are aware of what is happening on earth.
2. Those in heaven are concerned about what happens on earth.
3. That our prayers can be carried by intercessors to God.
4. That the prayers of the righteous are worth pursuing.

1)Those who have died in God’s good grace are alive and that these people aware of what is happening on earth.

Mark 12

Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses,‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

In Heb 11, the achievements of the Old Testament saints are reviewed with an emphasis on their faith. It ends by stating that they had not yet received salvation:

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Heb 12 starts like this:

1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

I believe this makes the case that those who have died physically are still alive and that they are witnesses to what occurs on earth.

1. Those in heaven are concerned about what happens on earth.

Luke 15

7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

1. That our prayers can be carried by intercessors to God.

Rev. 8

3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.

1. That the prayers of the righteous are worth pursuing.

James 5

The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.

To summarize, Catholics, as well as several other faiths, believe that once we are alive in Christ we remain alive in Christ. We also believe that those in heaven are aware and concerned about those still on earth. For this reason, we seek their intercessions given that they have been deemed righteous, if, in fact, they are in

 

[sola_scriptura]

The Fathers, Councils and Popes speak on Tradition
Historic
“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the Traditions even as I have delivered them to you” - 1 Cor. 11:2

To make sure that the apostolic Tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy: “What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession–his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach.

The early Church fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, recognized the necessity of the Traditions that had been handed down from the Apostles and guarded them scrupulously, as the following quotations show.

Pope Clement I
“Then the reverence of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the Gospels is established, and the Tradition of the Apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults” (Letter to the Corinthians 11 [A.D. 80]).

Papias
“Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the Apostles from those who accompanied them, and he moreover asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their Traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from Tradition” (Fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).

Eusebius of Caesarea
“At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apolinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from Tradition” (Church History 4:21).

Right at around Irenaeus is where the heretical doctrines began. Thanks for the history lesson; but I’m well aware of all these early church leaders, so please be aware my objection to RCC doctrine is well informed. I don’t disagree with the Roman church for mere delight of rebellion, I actually disagree with her and view many RCC doctrines as heretical & not encompassing merely minor theological errors (which wouldn’t be enough to compel me to use a word like heretical – since I take words seriously).

 

[Lampo]

Right at around Irenaeus is where the heretical doctrines began. Thanks for the history lesson; but I’m well aware of all these early church leaders, so please be aware my objection to RCC doctrine is well informed. I don’t disagree with the Roman church for mere delight of rebellion, I actually disagree with her and view many RCC doctrines as heretical & not encompassing merely minor theological errors (which wouldn’t be enough to compel me to use a word like heretical – since I take words seriously).

You are your own authority/Pope. Do you think there is any connection between the 30,000+ Protestant denominations and Sola Scriptura?

 

[A_Sinner_1]

why do people make so many silly statements on this board? You obviously know I don’t accept the authority of your Pope. Can’t you debate a point without absurdities?

I just pointed out the logical conclusion derived from the statement.

So Peter, “the rock” called Paul’s letters “scripture” – case closed.

I agree that St. Peter is the final authority. If you don’t, why did you make that statement?

 

[sola_scriptura]

Let’s start with intercessory prayer:

I’ll concede from the start that this case is not explicit in scripture. However, I think the implicit case is compelling. I’ll attempt to make four main points:

1. Those who have died in God’s good grace are alive and that these people are aware of what is happening on earth.
2. Those in heaven are concerned about what happens on earth.
3. That our prayers can be carried by intercessors to God.
4. That the prayers of the righteous are worth pursuing.

1)Those who have died in God’s good grace are alive and that these people aware of what is happening on earth.

Mark 12

Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses,‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

In Heb 11, the achievements of the Old Testament saints are reviewed with an emphasis on their faith. It ends by stating that they had not yet received salvation:

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Heb 12 starts like this:

1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

I believe this makes the case that those who have died physically are still alive and that they are witnesses to what occurs on earth.

1. Those in heaven are concerned about what happens on earth.

Luke 15

7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

1. That our prayers can be carried by intercessors to God.

Rev. 8

3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.

1. That the prayers of the righteous are worth pursuing.

James 5

The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.

To summarize, Catholics, as well as several other faiths, believe that once we are alive in Christ we remain alive in Christ. We also believe that those in heaven are aware and concerned about those still on earth. For this reason, we seek their intercessions given that they have been deemed righteous, if, in fact, they are in

Again, I’m well aware of how the RCC justifies intercessory prayer. None of these arguments are compelling. If you turn to Rev. 5 you will not find any saint handing prayers over to Christ. Rather there are four creatures and the elders who hand the prayers of the saints over to the Lamb (who of course is Christ).

Moreover, in no case will you find any apostle advocating the idea of venerating or asking the departed faithful to intercede on our behalf. In every case they call for asking a living person to pray for us and call on us to pray for others.

These are the traditions of men and have nothing in common with God – simple.