Sola scriptura is not true and is a fales teaching

[wisdomseeker]

I dont think he rejects the OT of the catholic church:

I dont think he’s individually claiming authority to determine how scripture is to be interpreted - he’s explaining the original, and correct, understanding of sola scriptura.

Keith A Mathison - more information on him can be found here:

ligonier.org/publishing_studybible_contributors_keithmathison.php

i believe the CC is very clear on that the CC stands on the written Word of God, OT, and Magisterium. She is Trinitarium. anything contrary to that is false.

what this guy says here is nothing new to Catholics. saying that the OT does not exist because it has been all written down. no it has not. it does not even make sense. to believe what this guy is saying is to desbelieve what the CC has been teaching for 2000 years. it does not hold. sorry.
plus you have not answered all my questions… which church is he talking about?

 

[Guyonthestreet]

plus you have not answered all my questions… which church is he talking about?

You have exactly the same information as I have - which church do you think he is talking about?

 

[Javl]

GuyOnTheStreet:
Tradition 3 - Only the magisterium can interpret the scripture by itself - Bad

I disagree with you on this one. Only the Magisterium is authorized to interpret scripture.
When Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to spread the Gospel and teach in His name,
they were the first Magisterium. This authority DID NOT end with the Apostles death but was passed on to the Bishops of the early Church and from them to the present Magisterium. The Magisterium is the one that has guarded all truths and teachings,
both scriptural and traditional, down through the ages. It is the Magisterium that has guarded and defended the faith against the myriads of heresies, also. The Magisterium is the depository of faith for all Christians.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE

I do not want to sound pretentious, but I believe I represent a huge group of Christians within Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy.

While we find considerable wisdom and inspiration in the Bible, we are not Sola Scriptura Christians because there is simply too much in the Bible which is unacceptable. The first eleven chapters of Genesis, for example. Yes, there may have been a major flood in the Near East in ancient times, but for Noah to build an ark and take in two of every animal for the 150 days that the water remained on the earth - give me a break! Besides, I don't believe in a god who would drown everyone else, even little children, and then seem to regret what he had done, promise never to do it again, etc. 

 Or, my God would never order Joshua to kill all the inhabitants of such cities as Jericho and Ai, or command Saul to slay every last Amalekite. How does that fit in with the Ten Commandments or the Sermon on the Mount?

  The problems in the New Testament are fewer, but what about the admonition to slaves to obey their masters? That sounds like a justification for slavery to me, and it was used by defenders of slavery for generations. And the book of Revelation? A disaster area.

   We could go on and on but you get the point.

   As for Catholicism: no, I prize my freedom to wander around, examining different views without worrying about falling into heresy. Critics will say that I am unduly proud or whatever, but that's the way it it. Catholicism as well as Protestant fundamentalism both fail when they claim that there is only one way and they alone espouse that way. God is too big to condemn people because they think for themselves. When I consider this vast, majestic, mysterious universe with maybe a billion solar systems, I am humbled and awed. And I cannot get into a faith that centers so much attention on consuming Christ's blood and body, or on the mother of Jesus whom I honor but do not venerate or believe she was sinless and reigns as the "Queen of Heaven", or on saints like Padre Pio whom the Pope agreed levitated and bilocated, and so much more that strikes me as well-meaning myth but far-removed from history or reason.

   But religious folks also do much good work and for that they should be commended. May God bless all of his children, whatever their creed, color or country. I seek to be a committed follower of Jesus myself. I rejoice that we are saved by grace through simple faith and not through theology or church affiliation. May religion be a bridge rather than a barrier.

Boy! Are ever you way out in left field. In fact, I don’t even think that you are in the ball park! Have you ever studied, or read, the writings of the early Church Fathers?, Or for
that matter the writings of Maimonides, an early Hebrew teacher. You should, it may help set you straight on the stories in the OT and NT for the reasons why God did these things.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Roy5]

JAVL

Yes, I've read many of the early Church Fathers, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Augustine - and even such 'heretics' as Tertullian and Origen. They actually have helped form my perspective. Considering their time, they were quite brilliant, but they lived without modern telescopes and microscopes and present all sorts of incorrect information based on such fallacies as the ancient three-tier view of the universe, etc. They delved deeply into obscurantist theology, heavily influenced by the predominant Greco-Roman culture (and religion) as well as the mystery cults of that time. 

  And yes, I've read Maimonides and various other Jewish scholars from the Bible and Josephus forward. Orthodox Judaism suffers from many of the same weaknesses of traditional Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism. One of my closest friends, a Reform rabbi, sees things much as I do. Millions of Catholics and Protestants do, too. Studies have shown that, also. As people become better educated, more and more are no longer ready to submit their minds to any church, book, or preacher.

  Religion should be a progressive, unifying force that helps guide the contemporary world toward a more just, more Christian society. We too often have ignored the teachings of Jesus and concentrated on teachings about Jesus. I'm sure he is deeply disappointed by that. I do admire Christians of all persuasions who focus primarily upon loving God and their neighbors rather than fretting about their personal salvation and their eternal reward. Certainly our theologies and our church ties have nothing to do with our eternal destination.

 

[Javl]

JAVL

Yes, I've read many of the early Church Fathers, among them St. Clement of Alexandria, Augustine - and even such 'heretics' as Tertullian and Origen. They actually have helped form my perspective. Considering their time, they were quite brilliant, but they lived without modern telescopes and microscopes and present all sorts of incorrect information based on such fallacies as the ancient three-tier view of the universe, etc. They delved deeply into obscurantist theology, heavily influenced by the predominant Greco-Roman culture (and religion) as well as the mystery cults of that time. 

  And yes, I've read Maimonides and various other Jewish scholars from the Bible and Josephus forward. Orthodox Judaism suffers from many of the same weaknesses of traditional Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism. One of my closest friends, a Reform rabbi, sees things much as I do. Millions of Catholics and Protestants do, too. Studies have shown that, also. As people become better educated, more and more are no longer ready to submit their minds to any church, book, or preacher.

  Religion should be a progressive, unifying force that helps guide the contemporary world toward a more just, more Christian society. We too often have ignored the teachings of Jesus and concentrated on teachings about Jesus. I'm sure he is deeply disappointed by that. I do admire Christians of all persuasions who focus primarily upon loving God and their neighbors rather than fretting about their personal salvation and their eternal reward. Certainly our theologies and our church ties have nothing to do with our eternal destination.

OK. I leave you to your beliefs, which I believe is totaly false. There would be no point in
discussing anything. You fall into the category of “modernism” and do not take into any
consideration of the times and mores of the early writers. It is the total message, not
the times that they present. God alone will determine between us. Anyway, God Bless and be with you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[wisdomseeker]

You have exactly the same information as I have - which church do you think he is talking about?

no clue. since he wants to fight against the Magisterium, OT doctrine of the CC, i can only assume he wants to build his own church based on his own enterpretation of the Bible just like all the others like him. i wonder if he will read GK Chesterton???
**

**"The Church, instituted by the Lord and confirmed by the Apostles, is one for all men;
but the frantic folly of the diverse impious acts sects has cut them off from her. It cannot
be denied that this tearing asunder of the faith has arisen from the defect of poor intelligence, which twists what is read to conform to its opinion, instead of adjusting its opinion to the meaning of what is read. However, while individual parties fight among themselves, the Church stands revealed not only by her own doctrines, but by those also of her adversaries. And although they are all arranged against her, she confutes the most wicked error which they all share, by the very fact that she is alone and One. **

All the heretics, therefore, come against the Church; but while all the heretics can conquer each other, they can win nothing for themselves. For their victory is the triumph of the Church over all of them. One heresy struggles against that teaching of another, which the faith of the Church has already condemned in the other heresy, - for there is nothing which the heretics hold in common, ’ and the result is that they affirm our faith while fighting among themselves."
Saint Hilary of Poitiers… The Trinity, 7:4, 356 A.D… Jurgens 865**

 

[kcmekim]

There is an implicit idea in people who believe in Sola Scriptura, that we cannot trust any particular church or group to decide for us ultimately what is right and that each must take the individual responsibility to decide, through reading of the Bible, what is right for ourselves.

If this is true, then why do we rely on so many creeds, confessions, and catechisms from the church to help us to know what is true?

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

If SS is true as some say then WHY do we have more then ONE non-Cathloic Church,is it was true then we need ONE Church we have One Bible. Like we had for 1054 years. ONE Church ONE Bible One truth

Is

Consecrating yourself to a spirit that is alive and well and very active to this day and age with a prayer that is exactly as I write:

O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.

We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.
We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee, and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction. And that this act of consecration may be truly efficacious and lasting, we renew this day at thy feet the promises of our Baptism and our first Holy Communion.
We pledge ourselves to profess courageously and at all times the truths of our holy Faith, and to live as befits Catholics who are duly submissive to all the directions of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him.
We pledge ourselves to keep the commandments of God and His Church, in particular to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
We likewise pledge ourselves to make the consoling practices of the Christian religion, and above all, Holy Communion, an integral part of our lives, in so far as we shall be able so to do.
Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men, to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult, in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart, the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son, in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven. so on earth. Amen.

ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/Consecration_mary.htm

This is a very dangerous prayer. You are asking for the spirit of something that is not the spirit of our living God to occupy everything including your soul. Be careful that is not what blasphemy of the holy spirit is. I just warn you as a loving friend.

If that is truth I will respectfully decline.

You see its easy to make assertions because you have an apparatus that has been well thought out and well protected for centuries. You can stand on the testimony that these men are infallible and look to your right and your left and you will see a constant. But there will be a day when you have to stand alone the day when this entity walks the earth (and she will mark my words) you will have to decide if you will wear her mark on your forehead or be like me and deny the mark so that I may live with Christ.

I will be killed and people will rejoice because the nuisance has been removed from the world. The nuisance that speaks out against Mary. NOT Mary the mother of Jesus but the prophetess who buy her sorceries and many miracles has blinded the eyes of many believers even the “very elect” will go her way.

Yes! Mary comes to earth. When she does, hold on to your hat!

Be prepared…this will come to pass!

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

Bill,

Is this the faith that was delivered to the early NT saints?

 

[JonNC]

If this is true, then why do we rely on so many creeds, confessions, and catechisms from the church to help us to know what is true?

Because Sola Scriptura is not license to personal interpretation. Nor is it a rejection of Tradition. Properly understood, SS simply sets scripture as the final norm. Unfortunately, there are some who believe sola scriptura rejects tradition. They are wrong. And there are some who actually teach the rejection of all Tradition. They teach solo scriptura, and they are wrong.

But you already knew all this, didn’t you?

Jon

 

[kcmekim]

Because Sola Scriptura is not license to personal interpretation. Nor is it a rejection of Tradition. Properly understood, SS simply sets scripture as the final norm. Unfortunately, there are some who believe sola scriptura rejects tradition. They are wrong. And there are some who actually teach the rejection of all Tradition. They teach solo scriptura, and they are wrong.

But you already knew all this, didn’t you?

Jon

Finally, somebody gets it! You can’t imagine how happy you’ve made me.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC

I do have one question for you… and it deal with how you have incorporated the Augsburg Confession (AC) with reflecting scripture.

So long as the teachings of the Church do not contradict scripture. The early councils, the Creeds, and for Lutherans, the Augsburg Confession are Traditions that rightly reflect scripture. Scripture does not stand alone, but it is the final norm.

Article XI of the AC “Lutherans believe that private absolution should remain in the church, though a believer does not need to enumerate all of his sins as it is impossible for a man to enumerate all of the sins for which he should be forgiven.” (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg_confession ) seems to contradict Christ;s giving the Apostles the authority to forgive (or, not forgive) sin as recorded in John 20: 19-24

19
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
20
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. 13 The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21
(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, **“Receive the holy Spirit.
23
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” **

This appears to be different from what the AC states. If SS is to have any validity, how can there be appparent conflict?

God bless

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

1. Are you suggesting the Oriental Orthodox are not Christians Bill?
2. Does the existence of more than one group that adheres to scripture and tradition negate that as well?

I am not trying to be pedantic but we have these same conversations over and over and yet phrases like (only one group of Christians prior to 1054 are still used).

A prophecy for you (which is absolutely certain to be fulfilled) - this thread will go nowhere.​

 

[LutheranDK]

If SS is true as some say then WHY do we have more then ONE non-Cathloic Church,is it was true then we need ONE Church we have One Bible. Like we had for 1054 years. ONE Church ONE Bible One truth

Hmmmm…where did I see that statement before?
Oh yes, that’s right!

http://www.foothilltech.org/rgeib/english/orwell/primary_sources/hitler2.jpg

PS: No, I’m not comparing the RCC to Nazi Germany, or the Bishop of Rome to Hitler. An idiotic original post deserves an idiotic answer.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Roy5

Wow!

What a revelation you have presented here … but, you do realize that you are judged individually (not as part of a ‘huge group’) and, truly, you are marching to the sound of your own drummer. That path you are taking may not really be leading you to eternal life… let me explain…

 I do not want to sound pretentious, but I believe I represent a huge group of Christians within Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy.      While we find considerable wisdom and inspiration in the Bible, we are not Sola Scriptura Christians because there is simply too much in the Bible which is unacceptable.

So, if you do not like something, you just pitch it? Seriously, your re-write of the Bible is a big step - maybe there are others (in this ‘huge group’) who think you were too liberal - or to conservative in your editing. But before you consider that - did you receive a special appointment from the Divine Author to actually edit His Work? How do you know you have not simply been carried off with the thinking of the Prince of this world? This is serious business - and while I honestly think that Sola Scriptura is fatally flawed, these guys have not usually been editing out the parts they did not like. And, when it comes to giving you a ‘break’ specific to your editing of the entire Word of God … I certainly do not have the authority to do that - the ‘break’ will come from the Author… and, that may be something else to consider. Most of the ‘writers’ I have known have what is called ‘pride of authorship’… something even earthly publishers have to take into consideration. I do not think our Divine Author will be pleased with this ‘removing’ of content. Think about it.

Here are two examples of where you have taken your own chronological, cultural, educational and social bias and interpreted the Bible so as to discard parts you do not approve of. There were two specific audience groups: the immediate group and us. Just how do you know what God ‘would never do’ - they were His Commandments and He is certainly free to modify them as He sees fit. We aren’t free to modify them … but, what stops God? Did you know that there really were slaves in the Roman Empire - wouldn’t it have been strange for Paul not to address them and to actually acknowledge their official and legal status? This does not mean he approved of the situation, only that he wanted these slaves to know that they were not forgotten.

You may want to take it easy on declaring ‘disaster areas’ - that is left to the President after a storm, not to a reader after attempting Revelations.

      As for Catholicism: no, I prize my freedom to wander around, examining different views without worrying about falling into heresy. Critics will say that I am unduly proud or whatever, but that's the way it it.

Well… that may be the ‘way it is’ for you, Roy5 - but, few brag about wandering around aimlessly in a mine field and expect to get to their destination. You do realize that the Devil himself has a problem with pride - and he can spot a fellow spirit a long way off. He has this wide and well-traveled road he works on every day for folks who think they know the route. The Devil does not worry about heresy, either - he just continues to march… and the tune he plays seems to attract more and more free thinkers.

When I consider this vast, majestic, mysterious universe with maybe a billion solar systems, I am humbled and awed. And I cannot get into a faith that centers so much attention on consuming Christ's blood and body, or on the mother of Jesus whom I honor but do not venerate or believe she was sinless and reigns as the "Queen of Heaven"...

You do realize that the same God who created all that we see and marvel at - also told us in John 6 that we have no life in us if we do not eat His Flesh (or, did you edit this portion out, too?) This same God, founded His Church (and that is the Catholic Church) on Peter and gave him the delegated power to bind and lose as he chose - and honoring (not worshiping as a godess) Mary is what we do.

      But religious folks also do much good work and for that they should be commended. May God bless all of his children, whatever their creed, color or country. I seek to be a committed follower of Jesus myself. I rejoice that we are saved by grace through simple faith and not through theology or church affiliation. May religion be a bridge rather than a barrier.

You know, the 10 virgins in the parable were all called - but, only 5 made it to the wedding feast. The 3 servants who were given talents to invest were all called - but, only 2 did what they were required to do. The seeds thrown out by the farmer were all called - but, only one is reported to have fallen on good ground. Arguments you have preseted have already been addressed in the parables of Christ - and he warned about the utter loss of those who failed the test.

God bless

 

[Javl]

Hi, Roy5

Wow!

What a revelation you have presented here … but, you do realize that you are judged individually (not as part of a ‘huge group’) and, truly, you are marching to the sound of your own drummer. That path you are taking may not really be leading you to eternal life… let me explain…

So, if you do not like something, you just pitch it? Seriously, your re-write of the Bible is a big step - maybe there are others (in this ‘huge group’) who think you were too liberal - or to conservative in your editing. But before you consider that - did you receive a special appointment from the Divine Author to actually edit His Work? How do you know you have not simply been carried off with the thinking of the Prince of this world? This is serious business - and while I honestly think that Sola Scriptura is fatally flawed, these guys have not usually been editing out the parts they did not like. And, when it comes to giving you a ‘break’ specific to your editing of the entire Word of God … I certainly do not have the authority to do that - the ‘break’ will come from the Author… and, that may be something else to consider. Most of the ‘writers’ I have known have what is called ‘pride of authorship’… something even earthly publishers have to take into consideration. I do not think our Divine Author will be pleased with this ‘removing’ of content. Think about it.

Here are two examples of where you have taken your own chronological, cultural, educational and social bias and interpreted the Bible so as to discard parts you do not approve of. There were two specific audience groups: the immediate group and us. Just how do you know what God ‘would never do’ - they were His Commandments and He is certainly free to modify them as He sees fit. We aren’t free to modify them … but, what stops God? Did you know that there really were slaves in the Roman Empire - wouldn’t it have been strange for Paul not to address them and to actually acknowledge their official and legal status? This does not mean he approved of the situation, only that he wanted these slaves to know that they were not forgotten.

You may want to take it easy on declaring ‘disaster areas’ - that is left to the President after a storm, not to a reader after attempting Revelations.

Well… that may be the ‘way it is’ for you, Roy5 - but, few brag about wandering around aimlessly in a mine field and expect to get to their destination. You do realize that the Devil himself has a problem with pride - and he can spot a fellow spirit a long way off. He has this wide and well-traveled road he works on every day for folks who think they know the route. The Devil does not worry about heresy, either - he just continues to march… and the tune he plays seems to attract more and more free thinkers.

You do realize that the same God who created all that we see and marvel at - also told us in John 6 that we have no life in us if we do not eat His Flesh (or, did you edit this portion out, too?) This same God, founded His Church (and that is the Catholic Church) on Peter and gave him the delegated power to bind and lose as he chose - and honoring (not worshiping as a godess) Mary is what we do.

You know, the 10 virgins in the parable were all called - but, only 5 made it to the wedding feast. The 3 servants who were given talents to invest were all called - but, only 2 did what they were required to do. The seeds thrown out by the farmer were all called - but, only one is reported to have fallen on good ground. Arguments you have preseted have already been addressed in the parables of Christ - and he warned about the utter loss of those who failed the test.

God bless

Well said tqualet. And, Roy5 keep in mind that Sola Scriptura has resulted in a splintering of Christianity that has resulted in over 30,000 different denomiations sects, and cults, each claiming to have the only truth. Also keep in mind that the only deposit of the full truth by Jesus Christ is the church that He built on Peter and has lasted these past 2000 years with no change of, or deviation from. or added to, that truth. To try
to prove otherwise is an exercise in futility. Many have tried and have failed miserably,and when their eyes were opened and realized their error the joined the One True Church, and that is the Catholic Church. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[poetryforjesus]

Because Sola Scriptura is not license to personal interpretation. Nor is it a rejection of Tradition. Properly understood, SS simply sets scripture as the final norm. Unfortunately, there are some who believe sola scriptura rejects tradition. They are wrong. And there are some who actually teach the rejection of all Tradition. They teach solo scriptura, and they are wrong.

But you already knew all this, didn’t you?

Jon

Maybe in your understanding Sola Scriptura shouldn’t be license to personal interpretation, but in all practicality, how can people be prevented from false personal interpretation when there is no infallible teaching office to interpret the Bible? If you say, the Holy Spirit will guard believers in interpreting the Bible, then my questions is, if the Spirit can guard individual believers, then surely He can guard the Church from being fallible, can’t He?

When one rejects the authority of the One and True Church, one doesn’t know where to go for the correct Tradition.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC

This sounds like a good working definition. The problem I have with it is when you set ‘The Bible’ as the final norm - and then come up with:

1.) Approving an active gay clergy

2.) Baptism is optional

3.) Marriage can be a same-sex union

and all claim that the Bible allows this - just what kind of final authority do you think you have?

Because Sola Scriptura is not license to personal interpretation. Nor is it a rejection of Tradition. Properly understood, SS simply sets scripture as the final norm. Unfortunately, there are some who believe sola scriptura rejects tradition. They are wrong. And there are some who actually teach the rejection of all Tradition. They teach solo scriptura, and they are wrong.

But you already knew all this, didn’t you?

Jon

This is not a trick question in the sense that there is a trick here. These are current problems confronting our society and some churches have claimed that apparently condemned behavior is acceptable.

God bless

 

[JonNC]

Hi, JonNC

This sounds like a good working definition. The problem I have with it is when you set ‘The Bible’ as the final norm - and then come up with:

1.) Approving an active gay clergy

2.) Baptism is optional

3.) Marriage can be a same-sex union

and all claim that the Bible allows this - just what kind of final authority do you think you have?

First, those who believe the above are wrong.
Second, authority based in Tradition is not so clear cut either. Catholics and Orthodox share a reverence for Holy Tradition, and rejection of SS, and yet there are differences between you as overt as there are between Catholics and Lutherans.

This is not a trick question in the sense that there is a trick here. These are current problems confronting our society and some churches have claimed that apparently condemned behavior is acceptable.

I’ve not experienced “trick questions” from you, so no worries. I will say, however, that I can’t speak for those who hold such false teachings as you described.

Jon