Sola Scriptura is True

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dj dave,

Faith in Christ and the need for baptism are not opposed to each other, so that if we have one then the other is precluded. If we are trusting in Christ then we will heed His teaching, right? And as the Steve Ray article makes clear, His teaching includes our need for water baptism. On the other hand, we see no suggestion in Scripture that baptism is either optional or restricted to only some Christians. And in Rom. 6 Paul automatically assumes that all the Christians he’s writing to in Rome are baptized.

So if it’s scripture we’re following and not man’s fallible attempts to explain what it “really” means… 😉

Matthew 28:19 (NRSV) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them [not just some of them] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
 
Why do you feel the need to “lay the law” to me? You jumped into the conversation with a preconceived notion of me
Actually no. I had no such preconceived notion.
and what I am about and you have failed to hear anything said.
What have I failed to hear? I have heard you repeatedly insisting that exegesis can *only *mean the examination of what a text meant in its original historical context. Have I misheard?
All you heard was, “…another uneducated Catholic.”
I don’t think you are uneducated. I think that there are certain parts of your tradition with which you are somewhat unfamiliar.
You want me to read the Fathers to see their use of exegesis; this will show me the result of their exegetical work. Even in your definition it shows the same as the one I listed yesterday, “explanation” or "interpretation” OF THE TEXT!
Yes. And not just of the text in its original historical context. Any kind of explanation or narrative could be called an “exegesis” in the original Greek sense. That’s my point. A theological account of the implications of a text *is *exegesis in the ancient sense. The decision to narrow the meaning of the word was deliberate and ideologically driven.
What they thought about the text is theology. Did this particular term, anti-Christ, take on different meanings through the centuries, yes. I never disagreed with that statement. It has been applied to many theological meanings of the different books of the bible, as you mention, again we agree. But never did a Father of the Catholic Church, in communion with her, say the Pope or his office is anti-Christ.
Since you say that you know I don’t agree with DD2007, I’m not sure why you keep returning to this.
When I make a statement like exegesis is exegesis that does not mean I don’t believe different theologians didn’t derive different meanings while in the process of exegetical work on the same scripture. I never said that. I simply stated what exegesis is, not what the results are. If I didn’t express that well enough I apologize.
OK–at this point it may be semantics. The point I have been trying to make is that the sharp distinction between exegesis and theology did not exist for the Fathers. And partly for that reason, they found it natural to put 1 John together with Daniel and with Revelation and with 2 Thessalonians to come up with a composite picture of the “Antichrist.” I agree that modern exegesis has been helpful in teaching us to pay more attention to the specific, historical meanings of each passage instead of jumping into harmonization. My concern is that if we separate exegesis and theology too sharply we will have a theology that floats free of exegesis and an exegesis dominated by historical-critical methods with no direct relationship to theology and piety. I don’t think this is an unreasonable fear given the nature of much modern scholarly exegesis.

Edwin
 
If sola scriptura is true, then how can an honest Rabbi find so much trouble with the text.

troublesome texts

There are 19 of these little videos, its along way to the end.

Mazel Tov

(its 11:47 pm here)
 
2Tim 3:16 does NOT teach sola Scriptura. In fact, it contradicts sola Scriptura by reinforcing the idea of a teaching authority, as all the people called “men of God” in Holy Scripture were in fact, prophets annointed by God.
In 1Tim 6:11, Paul tells Timothy that he is a man of God. In his next letter, Paul tells timothy that Scripture makes the man of God (this is, Timothy himself) perfect and equipped for good work.

A complement for this, is Peter’s Epistle (1Peter 1:20) which tell us that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation. The relationship between 2Tim 3:16-17 and 1Peter 1:20-21 is clear by the fact that both passages speak of Scripture and of “men of God”.

As a result, 2Tim 3:16 tells us that it is the Church Authorities (the men of God), and not christians in general, who are inspired by the Holy Spirit to know and explain the meaning of Scriptures.
An example of this practice (explaining the scriptures) is shown in Neh 8:7-8.

Therefore, protestant denominations founded on divisions and on private interpretations of the Bible were not authorized by God.
 
dj dave,

Faith in Christ and the need for baptism are not opposed to each other, so that if we have one then the other is precluded. If we are trusting in Christ then we will heed His teaching, right? And as the Steve Ray article makes clear, His teaching includes our need for water baptism. On the other hand, we see no suggestion in Scripture that baptism is either optional or restricted to only some Christians. And in Rom. 6 Paul automatically assumes that all the Christians he’s writing to in Rome are baptized.

So if it’s scripture we’re following and not man’s fallible attempts to explain what it “really” means… 😉

Matthew 28:19 (NRSV) Go therefore and **make disciples **of all nations, baptizing them [not just some of them] in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
My whole point was '“infant Baptism”…I should have stated that. Go therefore and **make disciples **of all nations, (THEN) baptizing them–no infant baptisms. I honestly think that your view on Safe contraception i.e. condoms and infant baptisms (2 birds w/1 stone BTW) contirbutes to the projected income of the church. There is NO Biblical basis for either. Using poetic language, the Bible book of Proverbs describes the joy that can result from appropriate sexual intimacies between husband and wife: “Drink water out of your own cistern, and tricklings out of the midst of your own well. . . . Let your water source prove to be blessed, and rejoice with the wife of your youth, a lovable hind and a charming mountain goat. Let her own breasts intoxicate you at all times. With her love may you be in an ecstasy constantly.”—Proverbs 5:15, 18,*19.
Sexual relations between husband and wife are a God-given gift. But procreation is not their sole purpose. Sexual relations also allow a married couple to express tenderness and affection for each another. So if a couple should decide to exclude the possibility of a pregnancy by using some form of contraception, that is their choice to make, and no one should judge them.—Romans 14:4, 10-13.—SORRY, i got off the subject but had to vent…back to the subject…

Was the evil doer next to Christ Baptized? What about all the prople before Jesus came to earth? What about David? Don’t forget

(Acts 2:33-36) 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord:Sit at my right hand, 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.”
 
Here is a link that includes many articles that prove Sola Scriptura is true:
So DD, instead of responding to the many rebuttals made here you’re resorting to spamming sites you agree with? :ehh:
 
So DD, instead of responding to the many rebuttals made here you’re resorting to spamming sites you agree with? :ehh:
SS is false The first Christins did NOT have a Complete Bible and with the written word we also have Oral Tradition,The Bible was not avilable to indivual believe unt il 15th century=the protestant bible is missing 7 entire books. I hope you are joking with this post
 
My whole point was '“infant Baptism”…I should have stated that. Go therefore and **make disciples **of all nations, (THEN) baptizing them–no infant baptisms.
I think you’re making the point for us. Scripture doesn’t state your beliefs as strongly as you would have liked, so you feel compelled to insert the word “then” into the text. The early church practiced infant baptism in the hope that the child would come to faith when old enough. Why should we think that 19th Century scriptural interpretation is superior to theirs? Or even 16th Century?
I honestly think that your view on Safe contraception i.e. condoms and infant baptisms (2 birds w/1 stone BTW) contirbutes to the projected income of the church.
I thought that love “think no evil” (1 Cor. 13:5). I would rather have actual evidence that someone has an evil motive than just assume it (1 Tim. 6:4).
There is NO Biblical basis for either.
Matthew 16:19 (NRSV) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Binding and loosing at that time meant the authority (formerly held by Jewish rabbis) to declare something permissible or impermissible.
—Romans 14:4, 10-13.—SORRY, i got off the subject but had to vent…back to the subject…
😃 No problem. I understand that Catholic teaching on sexuality is offensive to many. It sometimes is the real reason that someone rejects the authority of the Church under other pretexts. (Just look at the venom directed at the Church by Hollywood and the press.) Not saying that’s the case with you, but it happens.
Was the evil doer next to Christ Baptized?
Well if you were talking to Church of Christ folks who insist that salvation is impossible without baptism, that might be a tough one. Catholic teaching is that baptism is the normative way in which a person is born again and enters the Christian community. But it does allow for circumstances not permitting that.
 
Here is a link that includes many articles that prove Sola Scriptura is true:

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=sola+scriptura&B1.x=27&B1.y=9

Enjoy. 🙂
I especially enjoyed, over the last number of years, the debates with James White… none of which he could manage to stay on topic, and none of which included anything convincing… just the same old, reworded, Calvinist approach.

Same with Horton, RCSproule etc.

Yeah, I did enjoy… thanks.

.
 
Therefore, protestant denominations founded on divisions and on private interpretations of the Bible were not authorized by God.
Yes, actually a simple question of true authority.

Jesus gave the authority to teach, to feed, to teach HIS SHEEP first to Peter alone, and then to Peter and the other Apostles.

He, Jesus, never rescinded that authority, nor did he give it to others.

He, Jesus, gave those same Apostles the command/power to appoint successors - the Magisterium.

If you refuse to accept HIS plan for teaching and for our salvation, that is your choice. The gift of God - our free will - is yours.

If you wish to be one of His sheep… listen to your shepherd instead of rebellious and heretic men like White etc.

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Well if you were talking to Church of Christ folks who insist that salvation is impossible without baptism, that might be a tough one. Catholic teaching is that baptism is the normative way in which a person is born again and enters the Christian community. But it does allow for circumstances not permitting that.
Which leads to a question for DD within the scope of “sola” and baptism, and salvation.

Was the good thief saved by faith alone?
:hmmm:

.
 
the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth 🙂

and that is how all Christians have interpreted it (Scripture and Tradition) since Christianity started. Sola scriptura is a new doctrine.
 
the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth 🙂

and that is how all Christians have interpreted it (Scripture and Tradition) since Christianity started. Sola scriptura is a new doctrine.
more accurately… a reworked “invention”.

There is a tape set, The Bible Alone, by Scott Hahn. In the first lecture he lays out some very intriguing proposals to validate Sola Scriptura. And he rightly admits that they are much more convincing than the normal run-of-the-reform arguments we normally hear and which we see here.

He then proceeds to dissect each of his arguments… with Scripture Alone.

Catholics can happily declare that we are saved by Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, Acting in Love.

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

Sorry DD et al. But God will open your eyes in His time.

.
 
I think you’re making the point for us. Scripture doesn’t state your beliefs as strongly as you would have liked, so you feel compelled to insert the word “then” into the text.

… “then” was making my point. Notice:to make a disciple “Learned One” you must teact them

In view of the fact that ‘hearing the word,’ ‘embracing the word heartily,’ and ‘repenting’ precede water baptism (Ac 2:14, 22, 38,*41) and that baptism requires the individual to make a solemn decision, it is apparent that one must at least be of age to hear, to believe, and to make this decision. TRUE, the argument is made by some in favor of infant baptism. They refer to the instances where ‘households’ were baptized, such as the households of Cornelius, Lydia, the Philippian jailer, Crispus, and Stephanas. (Ac 10:48; 11:14; 16:15, 32-34; 18:8; 1Co 1:16) They believe that this implies that small babies in those families were also baptized.

(EXTRA POINT ABOUT HOUSEHOLDS:… not always include babies–"(1 Samuel 1:21-23) 21 *In time the man El•ka′nah went up with all his household *to sacrifice to Jehovah the yearly sacrifice and his vow offering. 22 As for Han′nah, she did not go up, for she had said to her husband: “As soon as the boy is weaned, I must bring him, and he must appear before Jehovah and dwell there to time indefinite.” 23 At this El•ka′nah her husband said to her: “Do what is good in your eyes. Stay at home until you wean him. Only may Jehovah carry out his word.” So the woman stayed at home and kept nursing her son until she weaned him. ALSO "(Titus 1:11) *“It is necessary to shut the mouths of these, as these very men keep on subverting entire households *by teaching things they ought not for the sake of dishonest gain”.)

NOW, FURTHER in the case of Cornelius, those who were baptized were those who had heard the word and received the holy spirit, and they spoke in tongues and glorified God; these things could not apply to infants. (Ac 10:44-46) Lydia was “a worshiper of God, ... and Jehovah opened her heart wide to pay attention to the things being spoken by Paul.” (Ac 16:14) The Philippian jailer had to “believe on the Lord Jesus,” and this implies that the others in his family also had to believe in order to be baptized. (Ac 16:31-34) “Crispus the presiding officer of the synagogue became a believer in the Lord, and so did all his household.” (Ac 18:8) All of this demonstrates that associated with baptism were such things as hearing, believing, and glorifying God, things infants cannot do. At Samaria when they heard and believed “the good news of the kingdom of God and of the name of Jesus Christ, they proceeded to be baptized.” Here the Scriptural record specifies that the ones baptized were, not infants, but “men and women.”—Ac 8:12.

The statement made by the apostle Paul to the Corinthians that children were “holy” by reason of a believing parent is no proof that infants were baptized; rather, it implies the opposite. Minor children too young to have the ability to make such a decision would come under a form of merit because of the believing parent,** not **because of sacramental baptism, imparting independent merit.

If infants could properly be baptized, they would not need to have the merit of the believing parent extended to them.—1Co 7:14.

It is true that Jesus said: “Stop hindering [the young children] from coming to me, for the kingdom of the heavens belongs to suchlike ones.” (Mt 19:13-15; Mr 10:13-16) But they were not baptized. Jesus blessed them, and there is nothing to indicate that his laying his hands upon them was a religious ceremony. He further showed that the reason ‘the kingdom of God belongs to such’ was not because they were baptized but because they were teachable and trusting. Christians are commanded to be “babes as to badness,” yet “full-grown in powers of understanding.”—Mt 18:4; Lu 18:16,*17; 1Co 14:20.

The religious historian Augustus Neander wrote of the first-century Christians: “The practice of infant baptism was unknown at this period.... That not till so late a period as (at least certainly not earlier than) Irenaeus [c. 140-203C.E.], a trace of infant baptism appears, and that it first became recognised as an apostolic tradition in the course of the third century, is evidence rather against than for the admission of its apostolic origin.”—History of the Planting and Training of the Christian Church by the Apostles, 1864, p. 162.
 
more accurately… a reworked “invention”.

There is a tape set, The Bible Alone, by Scott Hahn. In the first lecture he lays out some very intriguing proposals to validate Sola Scriptura. And he rightly admits that they are much more convincing than the normal run-of-the-reform arguments we normally hear and which we see here.

He then proceeds to dissect each of his arguments… with Scripture Alone.

Catholics can happily declare that we are saved by Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, Acting in Love.

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

Sorry DD et al. But God will open your eyes in His time.

.
Scott Hahn is awesome 🙂 👍
 
:tiphat:
He, Jesus, gave those same Apostles the command/power to appoint successors - the Magisterium…
That’s one I hadn’t thought of. Even the strictest “Bible alone” adherent must admit that Christ gave His apostles the authority to speak and act in His name: Matt. 18:17-18, Luke 10:16 etc. And it was the common understanding in the early Church that the apostles passed on their authority to the bishops who succeeded them. So it inescapably follows that they had Christ’s own authority in doing so.

Thanks, MrS :tiphat:
 
:tiphat:

That’s one I hadn’t thought of. Even the strictest “Bible alone” adherent must admit that Christ gave His apostles the authority to speak and act in His name: Matt. 18:17-18, Luke 10:16 etc. And it was the common understanding in the early Church that the apostles passed on their authority to the bishops who succeeded them. So it inescapably follows that they had Christ’s own authority in doing so.

Thanks, MrS :tiphat:
Don’t thank me… it was His plan all along. I just happen to be blessed with the grace to see it all around me, and in His One Church.

that

and the faith, trust, and belief in the Real Presence.

.
 
I came to this thread, because someone accused me of being a part of it. Tell me I pray thee who art thou. and what is Sola scriptura
 
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