Thank God you are where you are. I once told the same thing to a revivalist pastor in a rural town in this south-western tip of Africa and almost got swallowed up before I was finally cursed out of the town. For revivalists in our part of the world, the whole book of Genesis is literally true.Adam and Eve and Noah and the Flood are indeed mythical stories. Why is this even remotely a problem either with sola scriptura or with orthodox, official Catholic teaching? Neither one requires a literal interpretation of all of Scripture.
I grew up in East Tennessee. I know whereof you speak.Thank God you are where you are. I once told the same thing to a revivalist pastor in a rural town in this south-western tip of Africa and almost got swallowed up before I was finally cursed out of the town. For revivalists in our part of the world, the whole book of Genesis is literally true.
Instead of calling it “mythical”, I normally explain that “Genesis 1 to 11 is not historical truth, it is religious truth”.I grew up in East Tennessee. I know whereof you speak.
Here in Indiana the evangelicals are conservative but fairly gentle. Still, I have a nondenominational pastor in my intro to the Bible and he admitted flinching repeatedly during class yesterday! And that even though I did not in fact use the word “myth” of the Biblical stories. I’ve been reading Gerhard von Rad and Walter Brueggeman to help me prepare for class, and they both shy away from the big “M” word. Von Rad’s argument is that myth is about what is always the case, whereas the Biblical stories are narratives about God’s actions (although not literal history). I agree that a “mythical” interpretation that reduces Genesis to a generic statement about the human condition is deeply misguided, and so I have decided (with some relief) not to use the “m” word directly in class, since it could be misunderstood. But as a matter of fact I think that this definition of myth is too narrow and by my definition the stories are mythical. The problem is that many modern folks, especially Protestants (and including not least Biblical scholars such as von Rad and Brueggeman), have an unhealthy allergy to myth.
Edwin
I like to use the term allegorical. While the basic truths, that God created all things, and gave man free will, the actual history told in Genesis, (in either of the two stories of creation in Chapter one or the re-ordered story in Chapter 2) give us the truth that God made the universe. Man chose to defy God.Instead of calling it “mythical”, I normally explain that “Genesis 1 to 11 is not historical truth, it is religious truth”.
placido
Like “mythical,” that’s a loaded term. And less appropriate in my opinion because “allegory” is generally a later development, in which people go back and read their myths and ancient stories for deeper meanings. I think that it’s a misleading word to use of the early chapters of Genesis.I like to use the term allegorical.
JL: Give me a break. Even if “a man” was used, what is “a man”? isn’t it still A MAN who is our mediator?I BELIEVE THERE IS NO “THE” (Definite Article) IN GREEK THERE…TRANSLATERS ADD AN “A”…1 Timothy 2:5 (Wycliffe New Testament)
*For one God and one mediator is of God and of men, a *man Christ Jesus,
By his sacrifice of a perfect human body with out sin The apostle Paul declares that there is “one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”—for both Jews and Gentiles. (1Ti 2:5,*6) He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. (Heb 8:10-13; 12:24; Eph 5:25-27) Christ became Mediator in order that the ones called “might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance” (Heb 9:15); he assists, not the angels, but “Abraham’s seed.” (Heb 2:16) He assists those who are to be brought into the new covenant to be ‘adopted’ into Jehovah’s household of spiritual sons; these eventually will be in heaven as Christ’s brothers, becoming a part with him of the seed of Abraham. (Ro 8:15-17, 23-25; Ga 3:29) He has transmitted to them the promised holy spirit, with which spirit they are sealed and are given a token of what is to come, their heavenly inheritance. (2Co 5:5; Eph 1:13,*14) The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000.
JL: ALSO: adv. Likewise, in the same manner, further.
- Jn14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God*, believe also in me. What does '“also” mean?
Adam and Eve and Noah and the Flood are indeed mythical stories.
END QUOTE
Well…actually we might want to consider a few things before we say that:
“Science now corroborates what most great religions have long been preaching: Human beings of all races are … descended from the same first man.”—Heredity in Humans (Philadelphia and New York, 1972), Amram Scheinfeld, p.*238.
“The Bible story of Adam and Eve, father and mother of the whole human race, told centuries ago the same truth that science has shown today: that all the peoples of the earth are a single family and have a common origin.”—The Races of Mankind (New York, 1978), Ruth Benedict and Gene Weltfish, p. 3.
First, Do you believe the Bible is God’s Word otherwise?
Does the Bible present Adam simply as an allegorical character representing all early mankind?
Jude 14: “The seventh one in line from Adam, Enoch, prophesied.” (Enoch was not the seventh in line from all early mankind.)
Gen. 5:3: “Adam lived on for a hundred and thirty years. Then he became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and called his name Seth.” (Seth certainly was not fathered by all early men, nor did all early men father sons at 130 years of age.)
Does the statement that a serpent spoke to Eve require that the account be allegorical?
Gen. 3:1-4: “Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: ‘Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?’ At this the woman said to the serpent: ‘. God has said, “You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.”’ At this the serpent said to the woman: ‘You positively will not die.’”
John 8:44: “[Jesus said:] The Devil . . . is a liar and the father of the lie.” (So the Devil was the source of the first lie, spoken in Eden. He used the serpent as a visible mouthpiece. The Genesis account is not using fictional creatures to teach a lesson. See also Revelation 12:9.)
He employed an animal commonly seen by the human pair—a serpent. Evidently using what we would call ventriloquism, he made it appear that his words proceeded from this creature as his tongue moved regularly… Its naturally cautious manner fitted well with the impression that Satan wanted to make - a wise creature compared to say a monkey!.—Genesis 3:1-5;
Eve allowed herself to be drawn along by selfish desire. She ate what God had forbidden. Afterward, under her urging, her husband Adam also ate. He chose to cast his lot in with her rather than with his Creator. (Genesis 3:6; 1 Timothy 2:14) What was the outcome?
The entire human family was plunged into sin and imperfection. (Rom 5:12) Now Adam and Eve could not pass on to their offspring the perfection that they once had. Just as copies produced from a defective pattern all have the same defect, so all of their offspring were born in sin, with an inherited tendency toward selfishness. (Genesis 8:21)
for more see forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5602414&postcount=205
After sinner Adam’s expulsion from Eden he lived to see the murder of his own son, banishment of his killer-son, abuse of the marriage arrangement, and profanation of Jehovah’s sacred name. He witnessed the building of a city, the development of musical instruments, and the forging of tools out of iron and copper. He watched and was condemned by the example of Enoch, “the seventh one in line from Adam,” one who “kept walking with the true God.” He even lived to see Noah’s father Lamech of the ninth generation. Finally, after 930 years, most of which was spent in the slow process of dying, Adam returned to the ground from which he was taken, in the year 3096 B.C.E., just as Jehovah had said.—Ge 4:8-26; 5:5-24; Jude 14;
Luke 3:23-38: “Jesus himself, when he commenced his work, was about thirty years old, being the . son of David . son of Abraham … son of Adam.” (David and Abraham are well-known historical persons. So is it not reasonable to conclude that Adam was a real person?)
. “The first man is out of the earth and made of dust.” “The first man Adam became a living soul.” (Ge 2:7; 1Co 15:45, 47) That was in the year 4026 B.C.E. It was likely in the fall of the year, for mankind’s most ancient calendars began counting time in the autumn around October 1, or at the first new moon of the lunar civil year.
(*1 Corinthians 15:22) For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.
(1 Corinthians 15:45) It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(Genesis 1:27) And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.
(Genesis 2:24) That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.
(Matthew 19:4-5) In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?
(Romans 5:12-19) … For just as through the disobedience of the one man *many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one [person] many will be constituted righteous.
CHRIST"S PERFECT HUMAN SACRIFICE cannot be explained without beleiving in Adam’s Sin. Thus denial that Adam was a real person who sinned against God implies doubt as to the identity of Jesus Christ. Such denial leads to rejection of the reason it was necessary for Jesus to give his life for mankind. Rejection of that means repudiation of the Christian faith.)
continued…
JL: So what is your point? Or do you know what the WT point is, look in your canned remarks maybe they will tell you.
JL: Then I guess we have no mediator, 1 Tm2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus.
END QUOTE
- we are to have the same faith in Christ because he is both man and God*
I’m sorry but I do not believe that…How could he then be "? Heb 2:7 “made… a little lower than angels…”?
Why does everyone think Jesus has to be God to save mankind?
Contarini;5628022:
. Rejection of that means repudiation of the Christian faith.)Adam and Eve and Noah and the Flood are indeed mythical stories.
END QUOTE
CHRIST"S PERFECT HUMAN SACRIFICE cannot be explained without beleiving in Adam’s Sin. Thus denial that Adam was a real person who sinned against God implies doubt as to the identity of Jesus Christ. Such denial leads to rejection of the reason it was necessary for Jesus to give his life for mankind
continued…
Jesus was a perfect human. He was born without any blemish of sin and he maintained that perfection throughout his life. “He committed no sin.” He was “undefiled, separated from the sinners.”—1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 7:26.
He was not powerless before his executioners. He said: “*I surrender my soul . . . No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative.” *(John 10:17,*18) He declined to appeal for angelic forces to intervene on his behalf. (Matt. 26:53,*54) Though wicked men were permitted to carry out their schemes in having him put to death, his death was truly sacrificial.
His shed blood has value to provide deliverance for others. “*The Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his **soul ( Or, “life.” Gr., psy·khen′; Lat., a′ni·mam; (Heb.), naph·shoh′, “his life.) a ransom ***in exchange for many.” (Mark 10:45) So his death was far more than a case of martyrdom because of refusal to compromise his beliefs.
Why was it necessary for the ransom to be provided in the manner that it was in order for us to have eternal life?
Rom. 5:12: “*Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” *(No matter how uprightly we may live, all of us are sinners from birth. [Ps. 51:5] There is no way that we can earn the right to live forever.)
Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”
Ps. 49:6-9: “Those who are trusting in their means of maintenance, and who keep boasting about the abundance of their riches, not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother, nor give to God a ransom for him; (and the redemption price of their soul is so precious that it has ceased to time indefinite) that he should still live forever and not see the pit.” (No imperfect human can provide the means to deliver someone else from sin and death. His money cannot buy eternal life, and his soul laid down in death, being the wages that are to come to him anyway because of sin, has no value toward delivering anyone.)
Why did God not simply decree that, although Adam and Eve must die for their rebellion, all of their offspring who would obey God could live forever?
Because Jehovah is “a lover of righteousness and justice.” (Ps. 33:5; Deut. 32:4; Jer. 9:24) So, the way he dealt with the situation upheld his righteousness, met the demands of absolute justice, and, at the same time, magnified his love and mercy. How is that so? Glad you asked…
(1) Adam and Eve had produced no children before they sinned right?, so none were born perfect. All of Adam’s offspring were brought forth in sin, and sin leads to death. If Jehovah had simply ignored this, that would have been a denial of his own righteous standards. God could not do that and so become a party to unrighteousness. He did not sidestep the requirements of absolute justice; so no intelligent creature could ever legitimately find fault in this respect.—Rom. 3:21-26.
(2) Without ignoring the requirements of justice, how could provision be made to deliver those of Adam’s offspring who would demonstrate loving obedience to Jehovah?
If a perfect human was to die sacrificially, justice could allow for that perfect life to provide a covering for the sins of those who would in faith accept the provision. Since one man’s sin (that of Adam) had been responsible for causing the entire human family to be sinners, the shed blood of another perfect human (in effect, a second Adam), being of corresponding value, could balance the scales of justice.
Because Adam was a willful sinner, he could not benefit; but because the penalty that all mankind was due to pay for sin would in this way be paid by someone else, Adam’s offspring could be delivered. But there was no such perfect human. Humankind could never meet those demands of absolute justice. So, as an expression of marvelous love and at great personal cost, Jehovah himself made the provision. (1*Cor. 15:45; 1 Tim. 2:5, 6; John 3:16; Rom. 5:8) God’s only-begotten Son was willing to do his part. Humbly leaving behind his heavenly glory and becoming a perfect human, Jesus died on behalf of mankind.—Phil. 2:7, 8.
Thus Rev. 22:1, 2: “*And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side there were trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the curing of the nations.” *(Thus, application of the value of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, is an important part of the provision made by God to cure mankind of all the effects of sin and to enable them to enjoy eternal life. As was originally purposed. (Ps 37:10,11,29)
. Rev 7:16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
Now are we all saved? consider: Heb. 5:9: “After he [Jesus Christ] had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.”
jlhargus;5654657:
END QUOTEJL: So what is your point? Or do you know what the WT point is, look in your canned remarks maybe they will tell you.
JL: Then I guess we have no mediator, 1 Tm2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus.
- we are to have the same faith in Christ because he is both man and God*
I’m sorry but I do not believe that…How could he then be "? Heb 2:7 “made… a little lower than angels…”?
Why does everyone think Jesus has to be God to save mankind?
DJDAVE Being a JW your self I can see why you get confused is because God was Man here on earth and you think he was a angle anf not a man because angel are messager,does that help you its call the NEW LIGHT
Dear Hisalone,Hello Convert.
**I am spending less and less time here as God has called me to evangelize not to apologetics. **I know much of Luthers flaws. His rabid antisemitism is enough to question whether he ever knew the love of God. Many of Luthers writtings are filled with bitterness and anger, yet if you read of his struggle with faith and his pilgramage to Rome and how he was affected by what he saw there you see a soul that is searching for the truth longing to know God and being told to deny the very thing he know to be true.
The Reformation changed entire Christiandom. The Catholic Church was never the same. The counterReformation addressed many of the issues that for centuries men of God were persecuted for by the Catholic Church.
The first chapter of the Bible gives partial details of some vital steps that God took to prepare the earth for human enjoyment. The chapter does not give every detail; as we read it, we should not be put off if it omits particulars that ancient readers could not have comprehended anyway. For example, in writing that chapter, Moses did not report the function of microscopic algae or bacteria. Such forms of life first came into human view after the invention of the microscope, in the 16th century. Nor did Moses specifically report on dinosaurs, whose existence was deduced from fossils in the 19th century. Instead, Moses was inspired to use words that could be understood by people of his day—but words that were accurate in all they said about earth’s creation.DJ Dave, please tell me: do you take the whole book of Genesis literally?
Just respond to that question and see what will happen.
placido
DJ Dave, please tell me: do you take the whole book of Genesis literally? YES or NO?The first chapter of the Bible gives partial details of some vital steps that God took to prepare the earth for human enjoyment. The chapter does not give every detail; as we read it, we should not be put off if it omits particulars that ancient readers could not have comprehended anyway. For example, in writing that chapter, Moses did not report the function of microscopic algae or bacteria. Such forms of life first came into human view after the invention of the microscope, in the 16th century. Nor did Moses specifically report on dinosaurs, whose existence was deduced from fossils in the 19th century. Instead, Moses was inspired to use words that could be understood by people of his day—but words that were accurate in all they said about earth’s creation.
As you read Genesis chapter 1, from verse 3 onward, you will see that it is divided into six creative “days.” Some claim that these were literal 24-hour days, meaning that the entire universe and life on earth were created in less than a week! However, you can easily discover that the Bible does not teach that. The book of Genesis was written in Hebrew. In that language, “day” refers to a period of time. It can be either a lengthy one or a literal day of 24 hours. Even in Genesis all six “days” are spoken of collectively as one lengthy period—‘the day in which Jehovah made earth and heaven.’ (Genesis 2:4; compare 2 Peter 3:8.) The fact is, the Bible reveals that the creative “days,” or ages, encompass thousands of*years.
A person can see this from what the Bible says about the seventh “day.” The record of each of the first six “days” ends saying, ‘and there came to be evening and morning, a first day,’ and so on. Yet, you will not find that comment after the record of the seventh “day.” And in the first century C.E., some 4,000 years downstream in history, the Bible referred to the seventh rest “day” as still continuing. (Hebrews 4:4-6) So the seventh “day” was a period spanning thousands of years, and we can logically conclude the same about the first six “days.”
Noted geologist Wallace Pratt commented: “***If I as a geologist were called upon to explain briefly our modern ideas of the origin of the earth and the development of life on it to a simple, pastoral people, such as the tribes to whom the Book of Genesis was addressed, I could hardly do better than follow rather closely much of the language of the first chapter of Genesis.” ***He also observed that the order as described in Genesis for the origin of the oceans and the emergence of land, as well as for the appearance of marine life, birds, and mammals, is in essence the sequence of the principal divisions of geologic time.
The Flood? Was it just a local flood? ALL mankind descended from the first human pair, Adam and Eve. (Ge 1:28; 3:20; 5:1, 2) After the Flood, earth’s new population, including all the races and national groups on earth today, descended from Noah through his three sons and their wives, who were survivors of that global Deluge. Thus, after listing 70 offspring of the sons of Noah, the Genesis account says: “From these the nations were spread about in the earth.”—Ge 10:32.
THE JAPHETHIC BRANCH
THE HAMITIC BRANCH
THE SEMITIC BRANCH (SHEM)
FOR EXAMPLE : mb-soft.com/believe/txo/semites.htm
This question is very broad…what part do you think is myth or ‘story’ telling? --I will address your answer.
WE’RE NOT THE ONLY ONES…DjDave As a JW do you believe Our Lord Jesus Christ is the ark angel michel,and tell us what you believe about the Trinity…
You seam to know a lot about SS so you must know what the Bible has to say.
DjDave You and your cult would not know Jesus Christ is He set next to you at the Kingdom Hall.WE’RE NOT THE ONLY ONES…
jehovah.to/xlation/ar.html
vindication.xanga.com/649437175/item/
Michael
There seems good reason
for regarding Michael
as the Messiah (Jesus Christ)."
–William L. Alexander, (Doctor of Divinity)
ed., A CYCLOPEDIA OF BIBLICAL LITERATURE,
originally edited by John Kitto,
3d ed. (Edinburgh: A & C Black, 1886).
vol. 3, p. 158
“Michael, and Angel…both these words
do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms
that Christ is the Archangel.”
“Michael … in Dan. 10:13,21; 12:1,
- Brown’s dictionary of the Bible
is described as having a special charge
of the Jewish nation, and in Rev. 12:7-9
as the leader of the angelic army.
So exalted are the position and offices
ascribed to Michael, that many think
the Messiah is meant.”
– INTERNATIONAL BIBLE DICTIONARY –
ILLUSTRATED
(Plainfield, NJ, Logos International, 1977), p. 35
“Christ is in scripture frequently called an Angel.”
-Buck’s Theological Dictionary
Regarding the occurence of “Michael” in
Revelation 12:7-10, “By the personage(of Michael),
in the Apocalypse, many understand (this to be)
the Lord Jesus.”
-Methodist commentator ADAM CLARKE
(his multi-volume commentary – abridged ed.
by Ralph Earle----published by Abingdon Press,
vol. 6, page 952).
"The descent of the Son to Earth
was understood as the descent to Earth
of the highest prince of the angels,
who became man in Jesus Christ;
he is to some extent identified with
the angel prince Michael.
The Son is not himself God,
but as the highest of the created spiritual beings
he is moved as close as possible to God. "
“The earlier Protestant scholars
- Encyclopedia Brittanica.com
usually identified Michael with
the pre-incarnate Christ,
finding support for their view,
not only in the juxtaposition of the “child”
and the archangel in Rev 12,
but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel.”
Michael in (Rev 12:7-10)implies
- John A. Lees,
The International
Standard Bible Encyclopedia,
1930, Vol. 3, page 2048
“the warlike form of Christ.”
vindication.xanga.com/649437175/item/
- J.P. Lange’s ; COMMENTARY
ON THE HOLY SCRIPTURES,
s.v. Rev. 12:7
AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER…yes. But, there may be symbolic languageDJ Dave, please tell me: do you take the whole book of Genesis literally? YES or NO?
That is all I wanted to know from you … we can come to the interpretation later.
placido
And who determines what is and what is not “symbolic language” in Genesis?AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER…yes. But, there may be symbolic language
that i may have forgotten . i do not have time to read the whole thing again right now. What part do you not take literally, if any?
The Bible mostly…things it states must be in complete harmony with the overall theme of the Bible.And who determines what is and what is not “symbolic language” in Genesis?
placido