Sola Scriptura is UNBIBLICAL

  • Thread starter Thread starter RaiseMeUp
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

RaiseMeUp

Guest
It amazes me how people are so quick to push “sola scriptura” and anything outside of that is false, rejected, and disregarded. I don’t want to create conflict, but this is something I keep finding myself engaged in with many Non-Catholic-Non-Denominational-Protestant Christians. Where in the Bible does the idea of sola scriptura even present itself. It doesnt…The whole idea is unworkable. And if scripture alone is the way, then why so much emphasis on scripture that is INCOMPLETE and altered by man??? (missing the 7 books of the OT & altered scripture in NT) 🤷
 
Where in the Bible does the idea of sola scriptura even present itself. It doesnt…The whole idea is unworkable. And if scripture alone is the way, then why so much emphasis on scripture that is INCOMPLETE and altered by man??? (missing the 7 books of the OT & altered scripture in NT) 🤷
Take a look at the following image:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-D6vputrnnW8/UAf_3mOzD_I/AAAAAAAAAQc/PBAt5kBLMmM/s1600/pontifical+mass.jpg

See the two rows of people on the sides of the altar? That is the liturgical choir, where the concelebrating clergy can seat during the homily.

As you can imagine, they agree with the priest as he preaches.

In a sense, the same is true in our humble on-line gathering: we agree with your point :o But to show this to our protestant brothers, it takes more than an affirmation like this one. In fact, I don’t know what it takes 🙂 I think those who never thought about our argument and do not have a strong prejudice against the Catholic Church may be surprised and look into the argument and consider full communion with the Church. Others simply will ignore your argument simply because it comes from a Catholic, and thus it’s got to be wrong.

This is quite common. Try telling a member of the Watchtower Society that you are Catholic and then try to explain to them that Our Lord Jesus is not a creature, but God. No matter how much Scripture you bring together under the intercession of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, they will reject your argument because it comes from a Catholic, so it has to be wrong.

Fortunately most of our brothers in the faith do not have such a prejudice. We simply “agree to disagree” :o Or at least they do, for we still wish them to see the errors in the doctrine. But we respect them as brothers in Christ and we share our arguments as we have for 500 years. However it is not the truth that will prevail, since human nature has the ability to reject it or distort it. There will always be someone who disagrees with us, either a little bit or a whole lot. If people were willing to throw the Lord down a cliff, the Church can’t expect any better.

But it is nice to have peaceful dialogue and discuss our points with charity, without the presumption of being right. After all, we just hold on to the tradition as we received it…both us and then.
 
For us who are converts form sola scriptura backgrounds, I can tell you that the issue was never raised. We accepted it as a given fact–like the sky is blue or children are born of mothers. We never asked “Where did the Bible come from?” or “Why do we have a Bible?” It simply was the Bible and it was our final authority on all matters of faith and morals. It seems Luther did a good job of convincing a lot of people that we don’t need the Church to interpret Scripture for us. In my particular sect we believed that each of us was personally guided in interpretation (but we weren’t allowed to disagree with our sect’s basic tenets if our “interpretation” disagreed with theirs 😉).

We all but worshiped the Bible. If Jesus himself had come down and told us anything we thought wasn’t in the Bible we would have argued the point with him. St. Paul was our hero and the Gospels were little appreciated except to “prove” who Jesus was and to marvel at his miracles and our redemption/salvation (interchangeable words to us).

So, trying to get sola scriptura-ists to let go of this idea is like trying to peel a turtle. It can be done, but the turtle has to be willing or trying to do it could do more harm than good. Why? Because it may cause some to lose faith altogether–their identities are so tied to their personal beliefs that if they didn’t have it, they’d crumble. I saw more than one person lose their faith when they didn’t get answers to prayers after they’d “claimed it in Jesus’ name”–a very sola scriptura thing to do. So, we have to be careful how we approach this issue or any other people hold dear. We have to be sure they are ready to hear it and that it will not harm them. This is why we have to relay the truth in charity, not hit others over the heads with it. 🙂
 
I point out that 2 Timothy 3:!6 says “ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired…” and not “SCRIPTURE IS ALL…” This is one of the most frequently and profoundly twisted verses in all of scripture.

As well, nowhere in scripture does scripture delineate the “Sacred Table of Contents” of the bible. Only the Catholic Church did that, and had the authority to do that.

Scripture teaches (Matthew 18:15-19, Acts 15) that all matters in dispute must be settled by the Church as the ultimate authority, not by indivbiduals or by twisting and distorting the scriptures.

The devil is the first one in all of scripture to twist the meaning of God’s Word (Genesis 3). The devil is the first one to twist and distort the scriptures in his temptation of Christ, when he said, “It is written…” (Matthew 4:5-6, Luke 4:9-11).
 
I think Protestants are just a little wary to accept anything that wasn’t written in the first century. We can trust that Mark was a companion of Peter, and that Luke was a companion of Paul, but the further away we get from the time of Jesus the less trustworthy the claims on behalf of Jesus are.

To a Protestant we have no reason to reject the Bible, and essentially we are apart of the Church Christ established.

I’m not interested in debating, Btw. This is just where we stand. God bless.
 
I think Protestants are just a little wary to accept anything that wasn’t written in the first century. We can trust that Mark was a companion of Peter, and that Luke was a companion of Paul, but the further away we get from the time of Jesus the less trustworthy the claims on behalf of Jesus are.

What do you mean first century??
 
It amazes me how people are so quick to push “sola scriptura” and anything outside of that is false, rejected, and disregarded. I don’t want to create conflict,

hello-- i have observed this question and conflict – on this forum – and there is no resolution

so my question for you is how has mark 16 working 4 you?

Mark 16:17-18 KJV - And these signs shall follow them that - Bible …

And these signs shall follow them that believe;

1… In my name shall they cast out devils; 2…

3…they shall speak with new tongues;

4…They shall take up.etc,
 
So, trying to get sola scriptura-ists to let go of this idea is like trying to peel a turtle. It can be done, but the turtle has to be willing or trying to do it could do more harm than good. Why? Because it may cause some to lose faith altogether–their identities are so tied to their personal beliefs that if they didn’t have it, they’d crumble. I saw more than one person lose their faith when they didn’t get answers to prayers after they’d “claimed it in Jesus’ name”–a very sola scriptura thing to do. So, we have to be careful how we approach this issue or any other people hold dear. We have to be sure they are ready to hear it and that it will not harm them. This is why we have to relay the truth in charity, not hit others over the heads with it. 🙂
This is a very good point. I’ve seen my husband become discouraged at times when he realizes something he’s always taken for granted to be the truth might not be. Sometimes, i feel like he’s made my faith stronger and I have weakened his. 😦 We’ve been married almost 15 years and I’m still praying he will come into the Church, but it is a slow process for him, one small step at a time. He’s closer than he was 15 years ago.
 
I think Protestants are just a little wary to accept anything that wasn’t written in the first century. We can trust that Mark was a companion of Peter, and that Luke was a companion of Paul, but the further away we get from the time of Jesus the less trustworthy the claims on behalf of Jesus are.

To a Protestant we have no reason to reject the Bible, and essentially we are apart of the Church Christ established.

I’m not interested in debating, Btw. This is just where we stand. God bless.
Yeah James Madison or Andrew Jackson knew nothing about the constitution or revolutionary war either I suppose?

Or a more modern example, I am unable to write about knowledgeably about WW2 since I wasn’t there?

So, just as these accounts can be reliable especially in conjunction with a mutually agreed upon written account, then how can the Church Fathers of the first and second century, people who knew the apostles or the apostles students (ie Polycarp) , be rejected in exchange for the teachings of someone from the 1500-1800s?
 
I think Protestants are just a little wary to accept anything that wasn’t written in the first century. We can trust that Mark was a companion of Peter, and that Luke was a companion of Paul, but the further away we get from the time of Jesus the less trustworthy the claims on behalf of Jesus are.

To a Protestant we have no reason to reject the Bible, and essentially we are apart of the Church Christ established.
I don’t think it’s just a matter of time of authorship. Most believe that the Didache was written earlier than St. John’s Gospel, but most Protestants will deny anything in the Didache that brings their opinions into question because it is not Scripture. And John’s Gospel does not have any less authority than 1 Thessalonians because it was written later.

From my experience, many have never seriously questioned sola scriptura, but even when faced with the question, they are comfortable where they are and would rather not abandon it if they can avoid it, as it would entail abandoning Protestantism entirely.
 
hello-- i have observed this question and conflict – on this forum – and there is no resolution

so my question for you is how has mark 16 working 4 you?
If Mark 16 isn’t working for them, they become Pentecostals. Most Protestants, however, believe in cessationism, which is the belief that miraculous signs ceased with the Apostles, as they were only necessary to authenticate the message of the prophets and sacred authors until the Gospel was fully committed to writing. For example, the first paragraph of the Westminster Cofession of Faith states:

“Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing: which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.”
 
I don’t think it’s just a matter of time of authorship. Most believe that the Didache was written earlier than St. John’s Gospel, but most Protestants will deny anything in the Didache that brings their opinions into question because it is not Scripture. And John’s Gospel does not have any less authority than 1 Thessalonians because it was written later.

From my experience, many have never seriously questioned sola scriptura, but even when faced with the question, they are comfortable where they are and would rather not abandon it if they can avoid it, as it would entail abandoning Protestantism entirely.
I often quote the Didache as further proof that Jesus is real and sayings of Him had been passed on.

I don’t deny that the Didache is an amazing document that only proves who Jesus really was.
 
I often quote the Didache as further proof that Jesus is real and sayings of Him had been passed on.

I don’t deny that the Didache is an amazing document that only proves who Jesus really was.
Even so, unlike the New Testament books, it is not in your eyes the inspired word of God, is it? What I was trying to say is that there is no really objective criteria that can be applied to determine the canon of Scripture. For example the Westminster Confession of Faith says:

“We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture. And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.”
WCF 1.5

And Calvin in his Institutes:

“Let it therefore be held as fixed, that those who are inwardly taught by the Holy Spirit acquiesce implicitly in Scripture; that Scripture, carrying its own evidence along with it, deigns not to submit to proofs and arguments, but owes the full conviction with which we ought to receive it to the testimony of the Spirit.”
Institutes I.vii.5

This point of view really boils down to “I know what the Scriptures with infallible and objective certainty are because the Holy Spirit told me, and if you disagree, you can count yourself among the reprobate.”

Even those who agree that the Didache is worthy to be read will not swallow what it says if it contradicts what they believe the Scriptures say. For example, the Didache allows baptism by pouring and calls the Lord’s Supper a sacrifice. A baptist who reads it won’t stop restricting baptism to immersion on that account. He will approve of what agrees with his interpretation of Scripture and dismiss what does not as being the tradition of men which does not have the authority of the Holy Scriptures.
 
Even s

This point of view really boils down to “I know what the Scriptures with infallible and objective certainty are because the Holy Spirit told me, and if you disagree, you can count yourself among the reprobate.”

Even those who agree that the Didache is worthy to be read will not swallow what it says if it contradicts what they believe the Scriptures say. For example, the Didache allows baptism by pouring and calls the Lord’s Supper a sacrifice. A baptist who reads it won’t stop restricting baptism to immersion on that account. He will approve of what agrees with his interpretation of Scripture and dismiss what does not as being the tradition of men which does not have the authority of the Holy Scriptures.
Indeed…
Ecclesial Deism

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

‘Tradition’ becomes whatever one agrees with in the history of the Church, such as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Christology…What makes it ‘authoritative’ for Mohler is that it agrees with his interpretation of Scripture. If he encounters something in the tradition that seems extra-biblical or opposed to Scripture he rejects it. For that reason, tradition does not authoritatively guide his interpretation. His interpretation picks out what counts as tradition, and then this tradition informs his interpretation.
 
Even so, unlike the New Testament books, it is not in your eyes the inspired word of God, is it? What I was trying to say is that there is no really objective criteria that can be applied to determine the canon of Scripture. For example the Westminster Confession of Faith says:

“We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture. And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.”
WCF 1.5

And Calvin in his Institutes:

“Let it therefore be held as fixed, that those who are inwardly taught by the Holy Spirit acquiesce implicitly in Scripture; that Scripture, carrying its own evidence along with it, deigns not to submit to proofs and arguments, but owes the full conviction with which we ought to receive it to the testimony of the Spirit.”
Institutes I.vii.5

This point of view really boils down to “I know what the Scriptures with infallible and objective certainty are because the Holy Spirit told me, and if you disagree, you can count yourself among the reprobate.”

Even those who agree that the Didache is worthy to be read will not swallow what it says if it contradicts what they believe the Scriptures say. For example, the Didache allows baptism by pouring and calls the Lord’s Supper a sacrifice. A baptist who reads it won’t stop restricting baptism to immersion on that account. He will approve of what agrees with his interpretation of Scripture and dismiss what does not as being the tradition of men which does not have the authority of the Holy Scriptures.
Fair enough. But let’s not forget that some argue the Didache came out of the second century and it wasn’t found until the 19th century so it stands to reason that it was well rejected… Since it didn’t really exist. At least, we didn’t know where it was or what all of it said.
 
Fair enough. But let’s not forget that some argue the Didache came out of the second century and it wasn’t found until the 19th century so it stands to reason that it was well rejected… Since it didn’t really exist. At least, we didn’t know where it was or what all of it said.
That is true, although some say the Pastoral Epistles were
written in the Second Century too. That’s really beside the point. Regardless of when the Didace was written, I was just using it as an example to illustrate that date of writing is not an objective criterion that can be used to determine the canon of Scripture. Neither is the tradition of the Church from a Protestant perspective because the authority of the Church derives from Scripture. Calvin is very adamant about this point in his Institutes to counter the papist assertion that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible.

“These ravings are admirably refuted by a single expression of an apostle. Paul testifies that the Church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,” (Eph. 2:20). If the doctrine of the apostles and prophets is the foundation of the Church, the former must have had its certainty before the latter began to exist. Nor is there any room for the cavil, that though the Church derives her first beginning from thence, it still remains doubtful what writings are to be attributed to the apostles and prophets, until her Judgment is interposed. For if the Christian Church was founded at first on the writings of the prophets, and the preaching of the apostles, that doctrine, wheresoever it may be found, was certainly ascertained and sanctioned antecedently to the Church, since, but for this, the Church herself never could have existed.”
Institutes I.vii.2

Of course, this does not really answer the question since the books of the New Testament are not the same thing as Apostolic doctrine. In actuality, the Church existed before any of the New Testament books were written. Calvin’s underlying point is that the authority of the Scriptures depend not on the Church but on God, which is true. However, this does not imply that the Church derives its authority solely from Scripture since, after all, the Church pre-existed the New Testament. The real question is how Scripture is ascertained. For Calvin, and for all Protestants if they wish to be consistent, there is no objective answer in tradition. Thus, Calvin says in the same paragraph:

“As to the question, How shall we be persuaded that it came from God without recurring to a decree of the Church? it is just the same as if it were asked, How shall we learn to distinguish light from darkness, white from black, sweet from bitter? Scripture bears upon the face of it as clear evidence of its truth, as white and black do of their colour, sweet and bitter of their taste.”

If the Church got things wrong, like indulgences and the papacy, there is no reason to suppose that they could not have gotten the canon of Scripture wrong as well. The only objective way in Protestantism to determine the canon is by private revelation. The alternative is to say that we have a probable biblical canon on the basis of the historical data, which is a concession that few (in my experience) are willing to make.
 
What I find hard to understand among those who prescribe to Sola Scriptura; how can one believe in the Bible “literally” (for lack of a better word) but completely sweep under the rock John 6 (specially John 6:22-59).

John writes that Jesus says he is the “bread of life.”

“52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”[d] 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”” -John 6:52-59 (RSV: CE)

I guess I’m just not getting it. If Jesus says this in John, then how come our Sola Scriptura people don’t believe what Jesus says?
 
If the Church got things wrong, like indulgences and the papacy, there is no reason to suppose that they could not have gotten the canon of Scripture wrong as well. The only objective way in Protestantism to determine the canon is by private revelation. The alternative is to say that we have a probable biblical canon on the basis of the historical data, which is a concession that few (in my experience) are willing to make.
This!!
 
I think Protestants are just a little wary to accept anything that wasn’t written in the first century. We can trust that Mark was a companion of Peter, and that Luke was a companion of Paul, but the further away we get from the time of Jesus the less trustworthy the claims on behalf of Jesus are.

To a Protestant we have no reason to reject the Bible, and essentially we are apart of the Church Christ established.

I’m not interested in debating, Btw. This is just where we stand. God bless.
I have not seen anyone respond to the irony of your post. 🙂 Protestantism is definitely not first century Christianity–there were no Protestants until the 16th century. How in the world can anyone state that they will only accept first century writings and then turn around and say they accept 16th century theological concepts not held in the first century? I’m not trying to be snarky, but only point out that this is self-refuting.
 
I have not seen anyone respond to the irony of your post. 🙂 Protestantism is definitely not first century Christianity–there were no Protestants until the 16th century. How in the world can anyone state that they will only accept first century writings and then turn around and say they accept 16th century theological concepts not held in the first century? I’m not trying to be snarky, but only point out that this is self-refuting.
I was thinking this exact same thing, but then their response always seems to be, "no, we are not protestants, we are Christians believing what we believe (individual interpretation) the Bible means. Taking their 21st century interpretation, or rather some Protestant Pastor’s 18th to 21st century’s interpretation as what was the “true” 1st century interpretation, without then comparing that interpretation to the actual first few centuries of Christian belief and practices. So full of contradiction it is hard for me to believe they are truly being intellectually honest with themselves and others, but rather they are justifying their taught beliefs.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top